General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,535 posts)

207. Sorry -

Tue Nov 5, 2013, 11:26 PM

Nov 2013

I just don't buy that you don't think of a wanted pregnancy as a child at some point before the moment of birth.

Aside from conversations about abortion, or in medical settings, or as a joke, I have never heard anyone talk about what the contents of a pregnant woman's uterus as a fetus, embryo, clump of cells, or parasite. We're just not wired that way.

Yet whenever the question of abortion is being discussed, we start using language which distances us from the reality we all know when we are talking about a wanted pregnancy. It becomes just unwanted tissue.

It isn't that you have to share my opinion about the contents of the uterus - it is that everyone I have ever encountered talking to/about a wanted pregnancy outside of the context of abortion does, but in order to justify abortion - in discussions about abortion, and only in discussions about abortion, those same people call it something else.

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Have democrats largely given up on protecting a woman's right to choose? [View all] cali Nov 2013 OP

OMG I hope not it's one of the things that makes the Democratic Party! gopiscrap Nov 2013 #1

No lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #2

that hardly constitutes as an answer. So why aren't dems loudly and clearly cali Nov 2013 #12

They aren't? Both Boxer and Feinstein always defends a woman's right to choose. Look at Virginia? lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #28

Sometimes it feels like it -- along with other things they used to stand for. Brickbat Nov 2013 #3

They are so busy fighting for the One Percent now. woo me with science Nov 2013 #54

Personally I'll never give up on supporting a women's right to choos Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #4

On the federal level, it's a court issue. legislation is at the state level, geek tragedy Nov 2013 #5

No, our society as a whole has given up on women's rights etherealtruth Nov 2013 #6

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #29

I hope nothing kills you within the next ten years etherealtruth Nov 2013 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #46

I can't believe your post got hidden! Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #99

I know! One should not have to argue with people who don't think women can make Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #149

No woman here argues with women about their right to work as they please BainsBane Nov 2013 #231

Uh huh. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #232

It's very important for real Democrats here to choose their jury blacklist efficiently. Zorra Nov 2013 #182

How do you do that Zorra? pitbullgirl1965 Nov 2013 #228

Click on "My Account". On my screen view it is at the top right of the page. Zorra Nov 2013 #229

Thank you! pitbullgirl1965 Nov 2013 #230

It's shameful that your post was hidden. Whisp Nov 2013 #119

I can't believe it either. pitbullgirl1965 Nov 2013 #227

Wow, really bad hide. wtf jury?? Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #123

The jury system sucks. nt awoke_in_2003 Nov 2013 #146

Why the hell was your post hidden? WTF is going on on DU? idwiyo Nov 2013 #156

Says a lot about DU doesn't it? laundry_queen Nov 2013 #161

I don't get it at all. WTF did jury see in that post that I can't see? idwiyo Nov 2013 #168

Where are the jury members who hid this post Generic Other Nov 2013 #164

I read through that post 4 times and I can't figure why the hell it was hidden? idwiyo Nov 2013 #169

If I were the admins, I'd be examining those 4 jury members very closely Zorra Nov 2013 #174

would like to say that I am surprised your post not only got alerted on, but hidden? but then, niyad Nov 2013 #165

porn says nothing of the sort leftyohiolib Nov 2013 #50

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #52

You really think pornography turns all men into violent monsters? Arkana Nov 2013 #73

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #77

And I don't disagree that the industry isn't exactly respectful of women. Arkana Nov 2013 #79

Men who watch porn are part of the machinery of oppression. They're not feminists, but when it ancianita Nov 2013 #88

Odd, and here I thought this thread was about reproductive choice. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #101

I watched McKinnon and Dworkin rip into the Schlafly and Meese crowd, you revisionist. ancianita Nov 2013 #104

Right. And here was the main (only) anti-porn Presidential candidate of the last election cycle. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #114

January 22, 1986 Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #116

This event hardly proves your claim that she "palled" around with the Meese gang. She influenced. ancianita Nov 2013 #121

So did I. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #124

Fair point. I supported what was said upthread, that's all. You decided to take issue with me. I'll ancianita Nov 2013 #125

I can't speak to "churchy men", since I don't spend a lot of time in church. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #126

My closing statement about porn is that anyone who produces or consumes it is not a feminist. ancianita Nov 2013 #127

Then you're writing off a very large segment of the population, both men AND women. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #128

Yes, I probably am. It's a large, unconscious population stuck at a certain level of ego. ancianita Nov 2013 #131

Sure. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #133

In a sexist, financially and legally rigged game, worldwide, "consenting adults" is the ancianita Nov 2013 #136

And anti-choicers engage in similar mind-breaking pretzel semantics to argue that women aren't Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #140

I do understand that the basis of arguing 'capacity' arguments is based on the religious premise ancianita Nov 2013 #141

Perhaps, but the current trends defy that notion Major Nikon Nov 2013 #160

It's amazing, it only took 6 posts for this thread to go from pro-choice to pro-censorship Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #175

you are spouting very generalized radio-pop-psychology crap leftyohiolib Nov 2013 #96

I read "society" here as MEN. Women certainly are not angry about the gains they've made. ancianita Nov 2013 #61

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #70

Paid tools of male dominated religions.They're put forward as representing millions when they don't ancianita Nov 2013 #86

What about OneCrazyDiamond Nov 2013 #71

What do you think about them. I think women see them as high visibility tools of patriarchal ancianita Nov 2013 #84

True BainsBane Nov 2013 #107

I think they are women. OneCrazyDiamond Nov 2013 #117

I see no attribution to anger in men generally. Domination uses all kinds of ways and means...anger ancianita Nov 2013 #122

my bad OneCrazyDiamond Nov 2013 #153

There exist female misogynists BainsBane Nov 2013 #106

I've met self-hating women who've internalized misogyny. But misogyny = women hate + power. ancianita Nov 2013 #129

Your point about power is important BainsBane Nov 2013 #135

I hear you. But you can't forget the constructs that empower them to get away with it. ancianita Nov 2013 #137

met? hell, some of them live here and are very comfortable. VERY COMFORTABLE. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #244

I know I've met one or two over the years. In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #246

Looks like the 20 week ban is too popular to fight. Cannikin Nov 2013 #7

They'll use their opposition when its expedient leftstreet Nov 2013 #8

If it weren't for DU, I would be very underinformed on this issue Prism Nov 2013 #9

No, I don't think anyone has given up. HappyMe Nov 2013 #10

you miss my point. I don't see high profile dems being very visible cali Nov 2013 #13

Maybe because it's an individual state issue HappyMe Nov 2013 #18

You're right. Even though I've posted about TX several times on FB. Planned Parenthood is our last ancianita Nov 2013 #83

Nancy Pelosi Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #152

I certainly haven't given up! But the trends I see are discouraging indeed! calimary Nov 2013 #65

I have not contributed to any campaign fund in Texas. HappyMe Nov 2013 #80

I had a discussion Ten years ago with a female friend from VT... adirondacker Nov 2013 #11

There is less interest when it's a state issue LittleBlue Nov 2013 #14

The Republicans played this very smart. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #15

As a believer in playing 'the long game' of politics, I very much appreciate your outlook on this. ancianita Nov 2013 #92

women issues constitute the one "culture war" area that we've given up on nashville_brook Nov 2013 #16

+1 redqueen Nov 2013 #32

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #47

Part of the problem is that pro-choice people in blue states don't see an issue. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #120

Which (I hope) will help turn Texas blue even faster. But in the meantime...? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #177

I agree. I think a 50 state strategy is needed on a lot of things. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #179

If we can't get things done on the federal level, then some sort of end-around play is needed. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #181

Wall Street Dems are afraid fredamae Nov 2013 #17

No. That would be the Republicans, Cali. tridim Nov 2013 #19

But as usual, the Dems aren't fighting them hard enough. And going along to get along nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #178

Abortion is such a divisive issue leftyladyfrommo Nov 2013 #20

it's acceptable to spout anti choice comments here on DU as long as it's infrequent and respectful. boston bean Nov 2013 #21

Reproductive choice is a part of party platform. Being against gay marriage here is bannable, PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #24

Why should DU ever be a comfortable place to post anti choice sentiment? boston bean Nov 2013 #26

amen PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #27

Agreed etherealtruth Nov 2013 #36

So is recognition of the 2nd amend as an individual right ..... oldhippie Nov 2013 #49

A) really fucking stupid comparison. B) you should look closer. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #67

That's what I thought oldhippie Nov 2013 #68

Extreme fringe leftwingers aren't welcome here Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #33

I'm not long for this place, check out ATA. I am beyond discouraged, and I just don't boston bean Nov 2013 #35

I have, and I'm debating whether I want to stick any longer. n/t Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #40

see this: boston bean Nov 2013 #42

Sorry, but I can see why that was hidden. HappyMe Nov 2013 #62

in your opinion. Glad to know it. boston bean Nov 2013 #90

It may be time for a self-imposed break ..... oldhippie Nov 2013 #53

You're reasoning would never be the reason if I decided to take a break. boston bean Nov 2013 #55

I'm pretty sure that bostonbean doesn't need to be told she's too emotional Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #58

And, of course, no man ever gets emotional over anything ....... oldhippie Nov 2013 #59

Please point to your posts on DU telling men that they're too emotionally involved on a topic. Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #66

Nope. Can't. Haven't told any women that, either .... oldhippie Nov 2013 #74

Okay, so link to the posts where you've told men they may be too emotionally involved. Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #75

Nope. Sorry ..... oldhippie Nov 2013 #78

+1. nt DLevine Nov 2013 #60

I'm with you. There is no point. The difference between how minority and gay rights Squinch Nov 2013 #132

If you want a primer on how well gay rights are respected, do a search on Chelsea Manning. idwiyo Nov 2013 #143

There were many members PPRd during that time BainsBane Nov 2013 #247

This message was self-deleted by its author LiberalLoner Nov 2013 #43

Yes. I am also very distressed by this phenomenon, and I think many other DU women are as well. Zorra Nov 2013 #89

I agree with everything you said. It's disheartening. nt DLevine Nov 2013 #91

I agree with you, too. ancianita Nov 2013 #93

Excellent! Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #98

I agree with you also. laundry_queen Nov 2013 #163

well said Zorra, I agree that DU has a shameful record when it comes to supporting choice. bettyellen Nov 2013 #220

Yeah, but you know, women are really just incubators with legs. Nothing else. idwiyo Nov 2013 #144

Well, the DU poster in question identifies herself as "extreme leftwing"---- msanthrope Nov 2013 #145

I'm not talking about specific posters, just specific viewpoints. Gormy Cuss Nov 2013 #154

Anti-gay rights posters are (rightly) banned but anti-women's rights posters Arugula Latte Nov 2013 #41

It is quite disturbing etherealtruth Nov 2013 #45

If that was true, half of DU would be banned. I frequently see the 'gay marriage is unthinkable' Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #159

Blue it is spelled out in the TOS. boston bean Nov 2013 #184

The important thing, either way, is there are too many assholes and idiots around here nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #186

IMO, anti-choicers have no business posting here. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #44

Can't wait till another forced-birther "respectfully" calls me a murderer! idwiyo Nov 2013 #82

Just a matter of time. Because you know, they're welcomed here. Squinch Nov 2013 #130

Yep. It's a biiiiiiiiiig tent! idwiyo Nov 2013 #142

Did someone (and not a troll) *actually* say that to you on this website??? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #183

Directly to me, no (or not yet). Indirectly, Yes. idwiyo Nov 2013 #249

Shouldn't be put up with here. I agree. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #250

Well, according to Skinner, as long as forced-birther is "polite" about it, it's OK. idwiyo Nov 2013 #251

Way too tolerated around here. I absolutely agree with you. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #180

Too many women (and men) have no clue what an end to abortion rights kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #22

You're right. They're not stopping there. This 20+ week ban is their foot in the door. ancianita Nov 2013 #97

"Nancy Pelosi Speaks Out On Texas Abortion Law" frazzled Nov 2013 #23

I think the issue could be nationalized wercal Nov 2013 #31

Thanks for this maddezmom Nov 2013 #38

Thanks, frazzled KellyGofAL Nov 2013 #56

welcome to DU. sadly, the thousands of little blue-red battles ARE important, because they are niyad Nov 2013 #167

+100 freshwest Nov 2013 #252

More have to get involved earlier in Dem races . . . DanM Nov 2013 #25

The GOP strategy has been local wercal Nov 2013 #30

No one I know of is really arguing in favor of unrestricted third-trimester abortion. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #185

I fear that many have. Democratic issues must always be in a state of litigation., while SoCalDem Nov 2013 #34

Dem leaders drop anything that RepubliCons scream over... polichick Nov 2013 #37

+1 jsr Nov 2013 #157

I felt that men were not to have an say in MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #48

You can have any opinion you want... nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #187

Well MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #191

Suppose the OP were re-phrased as "Democrats haven't stood up to Republicans enough nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #195

Sure but I don't need prodding MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #197

Fair enough... nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #198

This is the limit of what our system can do. DireStrike Nov 2013 #51

Yes. tsuki Nov 2013 #57

no ZRT2209 Nov 2013 #63

I hate to say it BillyRibs Nov 2013 #64

Yes, why aren't we and the Congress' women demanding more visibility on women's problems? ancianita Nov 2013 #69

Come on cali. You should know by now that DU is not the place to discuss issues. n/t Dawgs Nov 2013 #72

Hey... don't ask me! AlbertCat Nov 2013 #76

-1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #188

It goes both ways though mythology Nov 2013 #202

I'd say Yes. Looks like without anti-choicers, also known as forced-birthers, idwiyo Nov 2013 #81

Well, they are scared of the Theocrats get the red out Nov 2013 #85

Those with religious beliefs make up a vast majority of the nation, and thus the voters Savannahmann Nov 2013 #95

I am one of those with "beliefs" get the red out Nov 2013 #100

So, you don't believe that "Women have the right to make their own choices regarding Zorra Nov 2013 #110

First, I don't agree with the ideas of the people I mention. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #118

See, we differ here. Years ago, when I was still a bit naive about conservatives, Zorra Nov 2013 #138

Everyone who pulls the lever for an (R) Candidate doesn't think that way. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #148

I won't go there anymore. I only discuss politics with Leftists or Independents. Zorra Nov 2013 #151

It is impossible to arrive to an agreement with authoritarian fanatics (religious or not). idwiyo Nov 2013 #225

They're outnumbered and too relentlessly embattled. They need more male feminist help. ancianita Nov 2013 #87

I think it's partly complacency Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #94

Not this Democrat. MineralMan Nov 2013 #102

No. Most Americans are pro-choice. However, when a Democrat is in the WH people get complacent, I've Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #103

I think most Americans know which party is more likely to defend a woman's right to choose. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #105

IF that were to happen, the Democratic Party would have no soul Rex Nov 2013 #108

It's not a discussion one can have here, really. closeupready Nov 2013 #109

It really isn't that big of an issue anymore. cbdo2007 Nov 2013 #111

This x 1000. closeupready Nov 2013 #113

I think a lot of young people, kiva Nov 2013 #112

We spend a lot of time on fringe issues and fighting each other fried eggs Nov 2013 #115

If DU is any indication, the answer is "yes." Democrats have given up. Squinch Nov 2013 #134

I haven't. WilliamPitt Nov 2013 #139

+1 grantcart Nov 2013 #213

Apparently so ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #147

I am pro choice. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #150

I'm pro-choice. In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #155

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #158

For many people who are truly pro-life, abortion is not an easy issue. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #162

I don't see people insisting that you are imagining the grey. What I see is people saying this: Squinch Nov 2013 #170

If you don't see it, then you are not reading very carefully. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #196

We don't need to reach an agreement on anything other than that you don't have the right Squinch Nov 2013 #203

The position which is intellectually dishonest Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #205

This is precisely why YOU can't decide for me. Squinch Nov 2013 #206

The problem is, it isn't semantics Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #208

Your psychological interpretation of their word choice is irrelevant. Squinch Nov 2013 #211

it's that you are imagining that there is universal agreement with you on this- and youre wrong. bettyellen Nov 2013 #221

Bollocks. There are no damn "shades of gray" for me. Forced-birthers are called that for a reason. idwiyo Nov 2013 #171

+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #189

I am on the bone marrow registry, Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #194

Zero adopted unwanted childern, zero fostered, zero homeless single parents living in your house. idwiyo Nov 2013 #215

Try reading my initial post. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #236

"we don't join discussions here" JTFrog Nov 2013 #239

It is sad how many are anti-choice Ohio Joe Nov 2013 #241

Will you take personal responsibility? Would you put a gun to the head of a young woman Zorra Nov 2013 #172

Try a little reading comprehension. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #193

No. Precisely because of responses like YOURS we can't have a discussion here. Squinch Nov 2013 #204

Sorry - Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #207

Sorry, but whether you "buy" what I am saying or not is completely immaterial. Squinch Nov 2013 #210

What discussion? It is a CLUMP of CELLS to me, it is MY body, MY choice. I don't force my choice idwiyo Nov 2013 #217

AND HERE WE ARE AGAIN, HAVING TO DEFEND THE PRO-CHOICE POSITION! Squinch Nov 2013 #238

+1 idwiyo Nov 2013 #216

And the way to reconcile the shades of grey is to leave the decision making up to the person Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #176

+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #190

I was responding to the question of why Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #192

Hey, as long as you aren't trying to infringe upon anyone else's right to reproductive choice nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #199

Is there a reason you assume I haven't been? Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #209

No, you're right that I shouldn't assume. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #212

Never mind "rare" is pure bulshit. Lots of women use vacuum aspiration once a month to control idwiyo Nov 2013 #218

Maybe I shouldn't ask, but I'm curious - how exactly does one do that ("vaccum aspiration")? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #233

It very much depends. I did it at the clinic but it is possible to do DIY. idwiyo Nov 2013 #245

Very interesting. Thanks for the links. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #248

And that is precisely my problem with black and white thinking. Ms. Toad Nov 2013 #237

Who is making any woman get an abortion. boston bean Nov 2013 #201

And yet, the vast majority of abortions take place in the first trimester. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #214

+1 and Thank You! Well said. idwiyo Nov 2013 #219

By no means, feel welcome to discuss what it means as apllied to YOU ONLY. idwiyo Nov 2013 #222

sadly, it seems that the answer is yes. niyad Nov 2013 #166

Both DU and the Democratic Party should be strongly pro-choice steve2470 Nov 2013 #173

Abortion opponents are very, very motivated voters. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #200

Yep, along with about everything else but the next election. TheKentuckian Nov 2013 #223

I noticed in grad school most of the undergrads I knew didn't make it "their issue" Recursion Nov 2013 #224

unfuckingbelievable LIberalLoners post was hidden! pitbullgirl1965 Nov 2013 #226

no they haven't. got it? Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #234

I haven't given up on a woman's right to have an abortion. In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #235

I haven't either. It is my "one issue" voting standard. hamsterjill Nov 2013 #242

I've never voted for someone who is against a woman's right to choose. I never will. In_The_Wind Nov 2013 #243

The abortion battle has largely shifted to the courts and the states Proud Liberal Dem Nov 2013 #240