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OwnedByCats

(805 posts)

189. I can't disagree with that, I just don't

Wed Nov 6, 2013, 02:12 AM

Nov 2013

mean that it should be rare as an excuse to have less clinics and less availability. It should be rare from a prevention point of view, but I understand what you mean about sending the wrong message. It's just too bad that some people can't see it for what is really meant by it. If I had a daughter, I would teach her the best ways of prevention because I wouldn't want her to have to go through that experience, but having said that I still would want it available to her if it happened anyway. If you go to somewhere like Planned Parenthood, who obviously provide other services to women too, they teach about prevention and even offer up free birth control if necessary - at least they did when I went there. I understand that in a political setting that could be misconstrued as meaning it should be less available but of course that is not what I would want.

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The "abortion should be rare" argument is thinly veiled paternalism. [View all] Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 OP

agreed gopiscrap Nov 2013 #1

It should be between a woman and her doctor, period. lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #2

oh for fuck's sake NoOneMan Nov 2013 #3

It has always been common...with or without Roe V Wade VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #49

So there is nothing the state can do to reduce unwanted pregnancies? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #55

State mandated forced vasectomy of half the male population would make the situation rare. Zorra Nov 2013 #194

Or even, how about free ones? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #196

That seems a bit too sensible for the US to consider at this time. Zorra Nov 2013 #197

The narrative, the way we frame things, is important. The reason so much of society nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #68

Allowing fellow DEMs to think for themselves is what is important. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #114

It's in the framing Scootaloo Nov 2013 #106

Sorry posted on the wrong sub thread somehow. Springslips Nov 2013 #183

How does it compare to forced vaginal ultrasounds? Nine Nov 2013 #4

Actually, the legal but rare rhetoric is, as I've stated, anti-choice in nature. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #7

That's your opinion. Nine Nov 2013 #9

Sure, it's my opinion. It also happens to be factually accurate. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #10

It was actually dropped from party platform language in 2008. ScreamingMeemie Nov 2013 #17

During that time, what has happened to women's human rights? Our right to control our own bodies? nt redqueen Nov 2013 #22

Whatever gains or losses occurred had nothing to do with anyone using the word "rare." Nine Nov 2013 #37

The only ones dividing anyone up are you and the OP'er who fail the grasp the importance of KittyWampus Nov 2013 #42

Did you mean to reply to me? (nt) Nine Nov 2013 #47

This isn't about one word. This is about ALL the rhetoric which helps misogynists and the right wing redqueen Nov 2013 #50

It isn't? Sure seems like that's what some people are up in arms about. (nt) Nine Nov 2013 #51

I edited to add clarity. redqueen Nov 2013 #59

But it's being used to sow dissent on DU. Nine Nov 2013 #64

Easy answer - stop using the term. Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #73

BS words are words. The power is in the full meaning IN A SENTENCE. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #136

it sends a mixed and muddled message, if you think abortion should be more readily available bettyellen Nov 2013 #185

I'm not mixed or muddled at all. Available YES. But I want BETTER than this. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #191

Agreed, it should not be an issue after all these years. bettyellen Nov 2013 #198

SO. They say shi* they don't understand all the time. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #116

'some huge sale or abortion promotion going on when I go to my doctor." WHUT?!?! bettyellen Nov 2013 #164

I support readily available abortions in every state. I'm on earth. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #192

i like sex, but... i am attractive but... i like men, but.. it is having to put something in front seabeyond Nov 2013 #5

Huh? Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #167

it would eb a total waste of time explaining grumpy. simply that you say huh, seabeyond Nov 2013 #168

I am extremely liberal regarding medical abortions rock Nov 2013 #6

I feel the same way. Fetuses aren't people. LuvNewcastle Nov 2013 #13

I did a rotation through an abortion clinic in the 70s in nursing school Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #57

I have managed a women's care clinic, assisted early abortions and IVF. There is a wide range uppityperson Nov 2013 #62

This is just what I said. Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #65

I think perhaps you're being just a tad enlightenment Nov 2013 #91

I saw Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #112

I didn't think you were suggesting that, enlightenment Nov 2013 #148

It wasn't anything like that Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #181

That makes a lot more sense. enlightenment Nov 2013 #186

Same here. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #26

That's it isn't it? haikugal Nov 2013 #36

Right there with you. Agschmid Nov 2013 #45

I'm sick of all the "situational rights" threads re:abortion NightWatcher Nov 2013 #8

+1 redqueen Nov 2013 #60

That is the bottom line. It is no one else's business but those two people. nt Mojorabbit Nov 2013 #113

This. Exactly! hamsterjill Nov 2013 #166

+1 MadrasT Nov 2013 #152

Not to be terribly picayune... Chan790 Nov 2013 #11

An abortion is a medical procedure. It is at face value ammoral. Whether or not someone wishes to... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #16

So leave morality out of it and say "It's a medical procedure" Chan790 Nov 2013 #19

Definition... haikugal Nov 2013 #43

I know exactly what amoral means... Chan790 Nov 2013 #92

And as a medical procedure Sgent Nov 2013 #101

Thank you for stating this. phylny Nov 2013 #103

OK, how about this: MurrayDelph Nov 2013 #12

Opinions are like onions. Rex Nov 2013 #14

that's pretty big load of bullshit Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #15

what the fuck are you on about? xchrom Nov 2013 #18

actually, the OP'er is being a goof. Unwanted pregnancies SHOULD BE RARE don't you think? KittyWampus Nov 2013 #33

shoulda, woulda coulda, 'liberal' blaming the victim horse shit. xchrom Nov 2013 #39

You have no grasp of the importance of empowering women to PREVENT PREGNANCIES via KittyWampus Nov 2013 #46

right -- i have no idea about education... xchrom Nov 2013 #48

I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #53

i'm in the choir. nt xchrom Nov 2013 #54

I am too. And I'm a soloist. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #72

Victim? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #69

Let me put it this way: When we talk about the need for bypass surgery... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #21

well, you may have a point that some bring it up for other motives Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #23

Depends on where you are. Here in UK it's covered by NHS, so it's no finantial burden. idwiyo Nov 2013 #31

Wrong analogy and why your entire OP is a FAIL. When we talk about vaccinations against unwanted KittyWampus Nov 2013 #34

You really don't get the paternalism, do you? Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #79

what the f*ck? Who in their right minds would PREVENT a pregnancy rather than undergo an abortion? KittyWampus Nov 2013 #123

Suggesting a preference is... a preference. People have them. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #127

All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #44

"All efforts should be made to prevent such situations where both abortion and bypass surgery are... redqueen Nov 2013 #61

So when and where have laws been passed making it more difficult to get a bypass nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #75

Why now, they shouldn't. Laws should rather be passed to make them rare by promoting better health NoOneMan Nov 2013 #86

Agreed. But I was making the point, that abortion and bypass surgery aren't exactly comparable nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #89

Find me any comparable amoral medical procedure... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #93

Yeah, I don't disagree with that at all. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #96

Its exactly how the conversation goes Sgent Nov 2013 #102

first time I heard it was from Ann Richards arely staircase Nov 2013 #20

Meaning that ideally, unplanned pregnancies should rarely happen. Nothing wrong with that. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #76

rare alone would change the context arely staircase Nov 2013 #84

Being pro-choice is one thing. The more pro-choice people, the better. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #87

I define pro-choice this way arely staircase Nov 2013 #90

Exactly. And whatever choice the pregnant one makes, everybody else just has to deal. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #95

Abortion should be rare is a truism;a simple concept that can be expressed without attachment. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #24

As I've stated up thread, the attempted imposition of morality upon the procedure... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #28

You are so wrong, IMHO. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #41

But only as rare as actually necessary. Meaning no woman who wants/needs (same thing) one nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #78

That is a given, a no-brainer, understood. Given that, they should be as rare as possible. (nt) NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #80

Okay. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #82

"...is that women need abortions because they were too irresponsible" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #52

No, it doesn't imply anything about women being too irresponsible. pnwmom Nov 2013 #144

However, NOBODY feels the need to say it in those other contexts. Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #83

Oh what bullshit. "would not agree that it is in every instance an amoral medical procedure" NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #85

it's the family's coercion, and not the procedure that is a problem. bettyellen Nov 2013 #104

Better that fewer abortions are needed, ever. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #105

Not fair to those who do not have access. Safe and legal are the essentials, counting them bettyellen Nov 2013 #109

Safe legal unlimited and rare nt NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #145

safe legal and readily available would be more important- wouldn't you agree? bettyellen Nov 2013 #161

He's against day care, too. Sheldon Cooper Nov 2013 #146

Anyone who pretends they don't know less daycare would be a setback for women is full of shit. bettyellen Nov 2013 #160

I'm inclined to agree on your first point MissMillie Nov 2013 #154

k&r idwiyo Nov 2013 #25

agreed, 100 percent.... mike_c Nov 2013 #27

I want people to mind their own business. I want women to have the same access to heathcare as men. we can do it Nov 2013 #29

THIS. People need to keep their noses in their own trough! WinkyDink Nov 2013 #94

"Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU. And ideally abortions SHOULD BE RARE KittyWampus Nov 2013 #30

""Slut-shaming" is one of the most overused terms on DU." - Or, perhaps, it's just really important. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #32

Your OP is a complete FAIL. And perfect proof of the overuse of that term. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #38

It's a bullshit term. By using it, one is referring to the women who are being shamed redqueen Nov 2013 #63

The reference to sluts is to point out why people shame women... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #66

You don't have to explain the 'logic' behind the idea of reclaiming the word. redqueen Nov 2013 #67

The key words are "if it needs to be common" Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #35

I'll second that rather than parroting it. sir pball Nov 2013 #174

DURec leftstreet Nov 2013 #40

And just as I'm sure you'd prefer not to have any more knee surgeries than necessary... TroglodyteScholar Nov 2013 #56

My grandmother taught me that abortion has always been common.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #58

I've always preferred "Abortion should be unnecessary". Xithras Nov 2013 #70

I suppose with consistent use of reliable birth control, you can make it at least 99+% unnecessary. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #81

Many women change their minds after conceiving. To them. abortion is the method of choice. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #88

AMEN!!! Daemonaquila Nov 2013 #71

Good post, but do I think it depends on the intent of the statement. AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #74

Excellent post. Thank you. n/t pnwmom Nov 2013 #118

Thanks. n/t =) AverageJoe90 Nov 2013 #126

Some people act like women are chomping at the bit to have abortions. Lex Nov 2013 #77

Oh, that Ted Kennedy. Wasn't he such a sexist, mysogynistic paternalist. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #97

You're talking about the guy who let his mistress drown in a lake? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #98

Ouch. Point taken (nt) Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #99

LOL! And you talked about slut-shaming. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #121

The entire appeal of the Kennedy men tended to be the fact that they were "players." Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #122

OK, I will. Nine Nov 2013 #173

I can recognize the work of JFK without hero worshipping him. He had a lot of troubling... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #179

This woman disagrees Retrograde Nov 2013 #100

I see abortion mainly as a clash of rights LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #107

A fetus has no rights. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #108

If you want to be specific about it LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #115

I agree the veiled tone of paternalism is there. I don't think it is a bad thing though to try and liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #110

If you acknowlege that abortion is a tragedy and ask for it to be rare, applegrove Nov 2013 #111

NO. CHOICE is about having CHOICES. Abortion is one, there are others. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #119

It is foolish to assume A. common sense exists concretely... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #120

What we ALL have in common IS somewhere in the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #124

That the "correct" exists chiefly in "the middle" is a false narrative. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #125

I didn't SAY "correct" I said, "common" and MORE choices exist in the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #131

If it isn't correct, then who cares if it's common? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #134

Because in a DEMOCRACY the majority rules. IF we have ALL choices available... Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #140

Again, "the middle" does not imply diversity or tolerance... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #141

We'll have to agree to disagree. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #195

That sounds nice but our society doesn't actually work that way. The middle has simply become a way liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #143

NO. They are using false equivilance to define the middle. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #193

tragedy? says who? bettyellen Nov 2013 #170

NOT a tragedy. It's a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #172

As a woman, I disagree. I think most women would rather not pnwmom Nov 2013 #117

Well said. nt Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #132

Very well said. HappyMe Nov 2013 #147

I'd say it has more to do with 1800 years of Judeo-Christian morality than anything (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #128

The Christian God is essentially the shining beacon of paternalism. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #129

I think you mean "patricarchy" Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #130

No, I mean paternalism. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #133

It seems a bit ignorant to act as though one has nothing to do with the other. (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #135

You mean God and state? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #137

In a perfect society abortion would be rare, because unwanted pregnancies are rare. Kurska Nov 2013 #138

Well put. (n/t) MissMillie Nov 2013 #155

Hillary Clinton is a paternalist? davepc Nov 2013 #139

Why couldn't she be? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #142

It should be rare. It's a relatively expensive form of birth control and doesn't hinder STDs. JVS Nov 2013 #149

+1. nt Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #150

+1. Abortion must be available, but we still need to be teaching our people to use condoms, and liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #159

it already is rare in several states- due to the difficulty and logistics involved bettyellen Nov 2013 #162

The goal and the point the poster is making is that it should not be the first line of birth liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #165

that is an issue between docs and patients- not for Democratic activists to weigh in on. PERIOD. bettyellen Nov 2013 #169

You are very aggressive. Do you think you can bully people into agreeing with you? liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #171

oh, the tone argument, LOL. Keep pretending that access to abortion is not a problem in the USA bettyellen Nov 2013 #175

going on ignore. Buh, bye. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #187

well gosh, if you cannot discuss political issues without injecting moral bs into it, scat then! bettyellen Nov 2013 #188

most women and men do have moral reservations about abortion but still support the right Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #151

Yep. I cringe when I hear that language. MadrasT Nov 2013 #153

Perfectly and succinctly stated. nt redqueen Nov 2013 #157

safe, legal, and readily available. That should be the goal. It already is too rare in some states bettyellen Nov 2013 #163

I have a feeling it would be rare if we educated our children correctly. Iggo Nov 2013 #156

I can't agree with that LibertyLover Nov 2013 #158

Posts like this are thinly veiled poor mind reading Silent3 Nov 2013 #176

I agree, but disagree, too... cynatnite Nov 2013 #177

Wow OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #178

when and where abortion is readily available (and it is NOT) reroductive services follow bettyellen Nov 2013 #180

Absolutely they should be OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #182

and so politically, that is the message we need to send- women need more readily available bettyellen Nov 2013 #184

I can't disagree with that, I just don't OwnedByCats Nov 2013 #189

understood, but politically we need to accomplish an increase in all services bettyellen Nov 2013 #190

I want the *need* for abortion to be rare. JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #199