General Discussion

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)

66. "they shouldn't be discussed together"

Sat Nov 9, 2013, 06:51 AM

Nov 2013

I absolutely disagree. Contraception reduces unwanted pregnancies. Some percentage of unwanted pregnancies result in abortion. Without even making a judgment call on any such procedure, its clear that more access to contraception and education regarding birth control would directly reduce the incidence rate of abortions in a population. Now, the only reason that could be desirable from a view congruent with liberal thought is if such a reduction reduced harm and allowed health care resources to be better allocated to promoting better aggregate health outcomes. And that is precisely what I have stated entirely in this thread to such chagrin.

So yes, while abortion is not the same as contraception, they both fundementally have the exact same function in a society at large: to reduce the incidence of pregnancy (for whatever reason). In fact, the usage of the former is very logically inversely proportional to the usage of the later. So while you may want to frame this debate in your own tidy box, they two subjects are immensely intertwined from a public health perspective.

Abortion is an important, private, medical procedure that should never be restricted or up for debate.

Now, I agree 100%. I am not for restricting it whatsoever nor debating its legal status.

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I don't understand when someone says "abortion should be rare"... [View all] cynatnite Nov 2013 OP

I agree with all your points, completely. CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2013 #1

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #2

What the Hell? Whiskeytide Nov 2013 #5

Only that it's a "undercooked meat/rare" joke. Chan790 Nov 2013 #9

I got that... Whiskeytide Nov 2013 #13

It was inappropriate which was why I ignored it. n/t cynatnite Nov 2013 #16

It was mysteriously: freshwest Nov 2013 #54

IMO the sentiment behind that statement teenagebambam Nov 2013 #3

Speaking for myself, when I say they should be rare Revanchist Nov 2013 #4

A lot of my friends had them and it was a tough decision for all of them Warpy Nov 2013 #6

I can't remember feeling relief, but I never felt any guilt. cynatnite Nov 2013 #17

Here's what your avatar had to say on the subject: Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #7

That was an entire generation ago. a lot has happened since. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #12

The year 2005 was "an entire generation ago"? Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #30

Shouldn't any expensive or risk medical procedure be rare if it could be avoided with prevention? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #8

Abortions are generally neither. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #10

I actually had a friend who ended up with complications due to a surgical abortion. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #18

I had a life threatning reaction to a common antibiotic. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #24

Abortions are cheaper and safer than condoms? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #22

If you're not going to argue in good faith I wish you a lovely evening. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #25

That is exactly the entire argument you responded to NoOneMan Nov 2013 #26

You compared abortion to open heart surgery, which is what I replied to. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #27

Did I? Beyond being something that could be avoided with prevention, no, I did not. NoOneMan Nov 2013 #31

"Of course they should be rare, just like bypasses." -you, upthread LeftyMom Nov 2013 #33

Yes, ANYTHING that has a less invasive, less costly alternative should be rare NoOneMan Nov 2013 #34

Abortion isn't an alternative to contraception. It's an alternative to PREGNANCY. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #38

So is contraception and education not an alternative/prevention to pregnancy? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #41

Strawman argument Lordquinton Nov 2013 #36

Birth control and eduction is not an alternative/prevention to abortion? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #37

You are confused here Lordquinton Nov 2013 #42

There are lots of ways to make any procedure rare NoOneMan Nov 2013 #47

No one is arguing against preventing pregnancy when it's not desired. cui bono Nov 2013 #58

Birth control is a prevention of unwanted pregnancies. NoOneMan Nov 2013 #65

It can be both Lordquinton Nov 2013 #59

"they shouldn't be discussed together" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #66

You skipped the first paragraph Lordquinton Nov 2013 #105

By surrendering and cowering to a word you are thereby enabling them by giving it power and validity NoOneMan Nov 2013 #106

Abortion is sure cheaper than condoms in UK. And early abortion is not a "surgical procedure". idwiyo Nov 2013 #44

Huh? But the NHS is on the hook for it. It is reflected in per capita health costs NoOneMan Nov 2013 #50

The state shouldn't have anything to do with the actual medical procedure. Her body, Her choice. idwiyo Nov 2013 #60

Of, for fuck's sake. How about the state ensure its legal, safe and rare? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #64

How about state ensure it's safe, legal, on demand, and as often as requested. idwiyo Nov 2013 #68

Rare was part of the Democratic platform! NoOneMan Nov 2013 #75

was. was... as in isn't anymore. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #91

Change the word YOU use. Leave the rest of the pro-choicers the fuck alone NoOneMan Nov 2013 #92

Simmer down, cheif. Do you not see, even a little, how using the "rare" language can be harmful? PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #93

In a narrow frame, yes, as harmful as any word can be in a narrow frame NoOneMan Nov 2013 #94

Continuing to use harmful language will also draw negative reactions. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #95

"Calling for it to be "rare" proposes that there is something wrong with abortion" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #96

I never ever ever said you or ANYONE who uses the phrase was such a thing. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #97

What do you propose to do with women who refuse to take pill? Deny them abortion? idwiyo Nov 2013 #107

Nothing. Not a fucking thing. Its a choice NoOneMan Nov 2013 #108

Choice means abortion should be free, safe, legal, on demand, and as often as requested. idwiyo Nov 2013 #110

I agree on all parts NoOneMan Nov 2013 #111

I question "so often" part. No one actually has any idea what "often" is or isn't. idwiyo Nov 2013 #112

Oh god. Fucking semantics police NoOneMan Nov 2013 #113

Spare me your condescension. By using "rare" and "so often" you ARE implying that there are too many idwiyo Nov 2013 #114

Haha. By suggesting what I am implying you are just creating a strawman NoOneMan Nov 2013 #115

Your "ignore" as a badge of honour! Never mind that you WILL read my responses to your posts. :) idwiyo Nov 2013 #116

I think it's neither "pig" nor ignorant." phylny Nov 2013 #72

take for instance the abortion pill, still an abortion but no knife La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #11

You know... NoOneMan Nov 2013 #40

What do you mean when you say "long, unnecessary cycles of oral contraceptives"? n/t cynatnite Nov 2013 #43

Exactly what I said NoOneMan Nov 2013 #46

I see your point... cynatnite Nov 2013 #52

Maybe when one has sex very infrequently, as one is not in a relationship. idwiyo Nov 2013 #48

Did I miss something? newcriminal Nov 2013 #100

Yes. Her body, her choice. idwiyo Nov 2013 #104

or dangers associated with actually giving birth. nt La Lioness Priyanka Nov 2013 #86

No other medical procedure endangers the lives of the medical professionals involved. Cassidy Nov 2013 #45

This thread is against those that want abortion "safe, legal and rare" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #51

first trimester abortions are the safest of all surgical procedures. CTyankee Nov 2013 #71

They are not safer than other methods of preventing unwanted pregnancies, nor cheaper NoOneMan Nov 2013 #74

I wasn't talking about prevention as much as the safety of the procedure. And since any CTyankee Nov 2013 #76

Of course. Instead you argue a narrow frame to divisively fight with other pro-choice people NoOneMan Nov 2013 #78

well, my bad for writing "any" instead of "no" in that sentence. Shoulda caught that... CTyankee Nov 2013 #88

Got it NoOneMan Nov 2013 #89

well, to be fair, I used to work for Planned Parenthood of CT and folks there were pretty CTyankee Nov 2013 #90

"Rare" in this context means different things to different people. ZombieHorde Nov 2013 #14

Thank you. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #15

That's the political genius and moral cowardice of the phrase. LeftyMom Nov 2013 #19

there is no moral cowardice. There's mostly an attempt by some to twist the issue away KittyWampus Nov 2013 #21

well said. PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #23

It's never bothered me to hear people say the phrase at all... cynatnite Nov 2013 #35

So why do people want it to mean the worse? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #82

nailed it Vattel Nov 2013 #84

I had not thought of the word "rare" like that... Whiskeytide Nov 2013 #28

You break it down very well, as usual. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #39

Yeeeeeeah. Why is there any kind of snappy phrase hanging round abortion anyway? sibelian Nov 2013 #109

Sorry, the issue are far right control freaks, not liberals trying to improve reproductive choices KittyWampus Nov 2013 #20

Good post, agree with all your points ! nt steve2470 Nov 2013 #29

I believe that it should be safe, legal, rare but always available on demand. xmas74 Nov 2013 #32

Big 'Ol.... DeSwiss Nov 2013 #49

I am sorry you had to make that choice, but TxDemChem Nov 2013 #53

"abortion should be rare" whttevrr Nov 2013 #55

Is an abortion the best, most efficeint, and safest way to reduce the rates of unwanted pregnancies? Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #56

"deal with an" suggests a pregnancy already exists NoOneMan Nov 2013 #57

Because I see the loss of life as regrettable but feel the woman's autonomy is paramount LostOne4Ever Nov 2013 #61

"some people here feel the need to talk to us as if we were anti-choice" NoOneMan Nov 2013 #67

Agreed. Xolodno Nov 2013 #62

Unwanted Pregnancies Should Be Rare eShirl Nov 2013 #63

Birth control should be easily accessible to all and rendered shame-free through education alphafemale Nov 2013 #69

I never got the shame of buying protection. Always loved it, actually. sir pball Nov 2013 #77

Pregnancy s/b rare. We've got too many damn people as it is. nt valerief Nov 2013 #70

Undoubtably NoOneMan Nov 2013 #80

In reading the threads on this topic boston bean Nov 2013 #73

It is an invasive medical procedure. Of course it carries risks and can be traumatic NoOneMan Nov 2013 #79

au contraire boston bean Nov 2013 #85

I agree with all of the measures you suggest. bvar22 Nov 2013 #81

This isn't so clear cut NoOneMan Nov 2013 #83

Not Clear Cut???!!! bvar22 Nov 2013 #98

Did you read my response? NoOneMan Nov 2013 #99

Yes I read your response. bvar22 Nov 2013 #101

I don't understand why you would want to make abortion rare if the alternative produces more harm NoOneMan Nov 2013 #102

It looks like you've gotten a lot of explanations. LWolf Nov 2013 #87

Why would anyone want unwanted pregnancies to be common? jberryhill Nov 2013 #103