General Discussion

eomer

(3,845 posts)

143. Yes, that makes sense.

Sat Nov 16, 2013, 12:55 PM

Nov 2013

I think the different types of "state", though, can make a significant difference to the people who live under them. In particular a nation state that has closed boundaries gives its residents no choice, they have to live under the system in place in that nation. A "state" that is a voluntary association of people who choose a communal approach to interacting with each other does give them a choice. Of course, there's also the danger that a voluntary association could become a cult that doesn't give people a choice.

I'm interested in this because I think that people should control the economic products of their work, one way or another. I'm not sure what systems can realize that ideal - maybe employee cooperatives are a possibility. Too often under capitalism it begins to look like the people are owned by their occupations rather than the other way around.

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so what is exactly wrong with socialism? [View all] Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 OP

Here's a great piece for a local historian PeaceNikki Nov 2013 #1

Great add, PeaceNikki. freshwest Nov 2013 #43

quaint idea--trust in authority BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #68

sociialism doesn't mean authority Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #71

I paraphrased that from the article. BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #76

Well see, that's where Marx and Engels come into play........ socialist_n_TN Nov 2013 #133

no argument there! BlancheSplanchnik Nov 2013 #138

Thanks PeaceNikki. Amazing the number of folks right here in Wisconsin who have no clue ... Scuba Nov 2013 #113

There's nothing wrong with socialism. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #2

The fear factor, public enemy, 'reds under the beds' etc. Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #3

They do equate socialism with communism, but even then I believe they are making a huge error... rwsanders Nov 2013 #53

exactly Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #60

We can lay blame on the Soviets for putting "Socialist" in their name gtar100 Nov 2013 #121

Not a thing unless Moliere Nov 2013 #4

+1 Wealthy parasites and wannabes are the only ones who should be hating it. idwiyo Nov 2013 #12

It depends on how socialism is defined. Laelth Nov 2013 #115

Is it necessarily state ownership? Or are there other types of socialism? eomer Nov 2013 #134

I actually went to wikipedia to bone up on this. Laelth Nov 2013 #135

Right, I was going off on a different tangent than your main point. eomer Nov 2013 #142

I think the term "State" in these definitions ..... oldhippie Nov 2013 #136

Yes, that makes sense. eomer Nov 2013 #143

The concern is equally low standards for everyone... Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #5

Well, socialism has high standards Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #6

In theory .. Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #22

yes some organizations are better than others Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #26

Well, we've already tried the lassez-faire thing for a few decades, and the result is ~20% nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #81

Unregulated capitalism stinks, indeed. Laelth Nov 2013 #124

Albert Einstein and Jesus Christ were both socialists. Pass it on. JEFF9K Nov 2013 #7

K & R Thinkingabout Nov 2013 #11

Einstein helped bring us nuclear weapons and energy FrodosPet Nov 2013 #13

Jesus Hates fags? PatrynXX Nov 2013 #25

Old man Phelps is a bad speller Thor_MN Nov 2013 #48

God is GREAT! FrodosPet Nov 2013 #49

Well said. JEFF9K Nov 2013 #179

It wasn't Einstein's fault! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #28

That is not accurate at all. zeemike Nov 2013 #29

You are correct FrodosPet Nov 2013 #45

^^^THIS^^^ alittlelark Nov 2013 #72

+1 uponit7771 Nov 2013 #166

Yes! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #18

Nothing. Everything is right about it. Every damn thing. idwiyo Nov 2013 #8

If by "socialism" you mean Social Democracy, or something like it, I'm inclined to agree. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #88

Soviet-style "communism" was not communism or socialism. idwiyo Nov 2013 #110

I have no argument with any of that, honestly. Sounds like paradise. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #111

The only thing wrong with state socialism is its propensity toward cronyism. joshcryer Nov 2013 #9

Financial industry among others dreamnightwind Nov 2013 #14

Well regulated, yes. joshcryer Nov 2013 #15

Black market economies are not what is destroying this planet - eom dreamnightwind Nov 2013 #17

It can be regulated Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #31

All you need is a government printing money and regulating interest rates. joshcryer Nov 2013 #105

socialism works well for all services free at the point of use Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #20

Historically, it's been just that tripping up attempts at socialism. bluestate10 Nov 2013 #23

Why does it have to be a choice between pure socialism and pure capitalism? MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #46

Capitalists do not have the ethos of prosperity and redistribution Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #55

Exactly. Things don't have to be the way they are now, but they don't have to be like the U.S.S.R. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #90

Think you are jumbling economic and political systems - TBF Nov 2013 #116

I think it's a choice between cronyism and fairness, myself. joshcryer Nov 2013 #106

IOW, public goods are GOOD, but not everything is a public good n/t eridani Nov 2013 #112

I make a point to defend socialism every chance I get. Curmudgeoness Nov 2013 #10

Probably because the Nazis had socialism in their name although Cleita Nov 2013 #16

Adolf Hitler purged the Marxists from the NSDAP DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #40

And the Soviets did it with communism. libdem4life Nov 2013 #54

I liked this post Rider3 Nov 2013 #19

Do you still? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #21

Poster probably meant "rec'd" as they are listed under it. kentauros Nov 2013 #32

Thanks! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #35

I'm still working on that hippie art colony. Manifestor_of_Light Nov 2013 #98

Eventually I'll learn arc-welding. kentauros Nov 2013 #102

Nothing is wrong with it :) Marrah_G Nov 2013 #24

Yeah! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #27

Mostly the fact that we seem to lack it Scootaloo Nov 2013 #30

People don't really know what it is Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #33

My experience? Scootaloo Nov 2013 #37

It's like my knowledge of the NFL Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #39

You might be a socialist if: ErikJ Nov 2013 #34

I think that we need to educate people Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #36

Not a thing DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #38

When we think back to Romney and his USSR! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #41

If not genes, then propaganda DissidentVoice Nov 2013 #42

It's great for social needs, not so good for private needs seveneyes Nov 2013 #44

Depends on what private needs you have? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #47

What are the "private needs" that are impinged upon by Socialism? Maedhros Nov 2013 #52

I believe seveneyes is speaking of systems like the Soviet Union. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #118

You are correct seveneyes Nov 2013 #126

Most of us on DU Enthusiast Nov 2013 #139

Acknowledged seveneyes Nov 2013 #140

yes Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #171

The Soviet Union was more "totalitarian" than it was "socialist." Maedhros Nov 2013 #156

We agree on that.....nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #162

Here they come! RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #50

When I cam to this country I was shocked that republicans were actually RED!!! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #63

Same here. RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #92

The only thing wrong with socialism is the people who have run it Warpy Nov 2013 #51

Socialism only moves slowly because it is prevented from doing so by big bad US corporations/repubs Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #56

I always found it odd that SOCIAL Security and Medicare ... spin Nov 2013 #57

Republicans use socialist services Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #89

Our collective amygala has been trained to hate and fear it, but not define it. arcane1 Nov 2013 #58

So what's wrong with socialism? - "Nothing" say the people of Seattle who just elected a Socialist OutNow Nov 2013 #59

Great! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #62

If socialism is so great, there must be many thriving, prosperous, socialist countries, Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #61

Well if the corps weren't in control, yes! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #65

Right. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #66

LOL. If Sweden, Denmark and Norway are socialist countries, Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #74

Scandinavia is not exactly socialist Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #77

Scandinavia is plenty closer than we are anyway. Oakenshield Nov 2013 #100

These countries are a lot nicer to people in need Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #172

All of which have thriving free market economies that embrace capitalism. Nt hack89 Nov 2013 #83

What does that have to do with socialism? ZombieHorde Nov 2013 #108

True - capitalism is required to generate the wealth needed to make socialism work hack89 Nov 2013 #129

Sweden? Denmark? May not be "pure" socialism but no one said they had to be... nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #95

I'm just fine with Sweden and Denmark. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #96

It's the kind of "socialism" I would tend to favor, anyhow. Can't speak for anyone else. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #97

I'm with you..............nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #119

Absolutely MyNameGoesHere Nov 2013 #114

Wrong. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #120

This country is pretty socialist when you get right down to it treestar Nov 2013 #141

Workers do not control the means of production, so not entirely Socialist. [n/a] Maedhros Nov 2013 #158

True, though tell that to a right winger treestar Nov 2013 #161

I'm routinely appalled by the widespread lack of knowledge Maedhros Nov 2013 #170

Right, because multinational corporations would ever allow that to happen. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #174

I use their buzzwords to make them think: freshwest Nov 2013 #64

Socialism is about people and ownership Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #69

Our water is supplied by the City and the reservoir and pipes are maintained by the city Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #173

anything that does not directly profit the already rich is anathema to the GOP and... yurbud Nov 2013 #67

Unfortunately we have some Democrats like that Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #70

I bought that until the health care debate and constituents in those red states... yurbud Nov 2013 #163

Pure Socialism assumes a better human nature than actually exists--at least in meaningful quantities Gore1FL Nov 2013 #73

No, governemnt should not get out of the way but.. Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #78

There are good points, and bad points to every political system. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #75

"Socialist Governments tend to be right on the verge of dictatorships" Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #82

Agreed without reservation. Savannahmann Nov 2013 #99

Socialism can suck for rich people, Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #79

How do you know that theywould have to have higher taxes? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #91

Because that's Jamaal510 Nov 2013 #94

Nothing, per se. It's actually the best of the lot. DeSwiss Nov 2013 #80

There is noting wrong with any utopian system, even socialism Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #84

Can you explain to me how capitalism has NOT spun out of control? TBF Nov 2013 #117

I didn't post on that economic system called Capitalism as it wasn't in the OP Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #167

I think you are confusing communism with socialism or something else Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #178

In liberalism, economic rights are the right to work and to profit from it, whether with your hands Agnosticsherbet Nov 2013 #181

Capitalism is a sub sect of judaism Rain Mcloud Nov 2013 #85

who said the wealthy are handpicked by God? Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #87

It is a repeated theme in the Bible. Rain Mcloud Nov 2013 #101

What happened to the separation of state and religion ? Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #149

What's wrong with Socialism? ReRe Nov 2013 #86

Ahhhhh! Keep your hands off my medicare you socialists! RosettaStoned77 Nov 2013 #93

Good! Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #103

Nothing. Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #104

We need socialist policies for basic human needs and protections... inelastic demands. HijackedLabel Nov 2013 #107

^^^^^^^^ questionseverything Nov 2013 #154

Nothing. ronnie624 Nov 2013 #109

Well, you're right. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #123

It's unAmerican. sibelian Nov 2013 #122

One day when 50%+ population wants socialism Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #148

It's unAmerican. LWolf Nov 2013 #125

Well, you know what they say... GladRagDahl Nov 2013 #127

Ah yes, Ms Thatcher....... socialist_n_TN Nov 2013 #165

No, that's not what she implied. GladRagDahl Nov 2013 #189

The only "Problem" is that the super rich lose all their power. Taitertots Nov 2013 #128

What do you mean? FreeJoe Nov 2013 #130

There is not a 100% capitalist country nor a 100% Socialist country Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #147

This is a great example of why I typically avoid Socialism discussions FreeJoe Nov 2013 #177

Not a damn thing. 99Forever Nov 2013 #131

+1 Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #146

Imagine that all fast food restaurants were run by the US Postal Service FarCenter Nov 2013 #132

That's a far fetched definition Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #145

Government is likely better able to own and operate restaurants than healthcare or banking FarCenter Nov 2013 #150

nothing is 100% pure Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #155

I'd love to see fast food chains disappear altogether 2banon Nov 2013 #152

Yes, have it your way for under .50 Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #187

So many people own their home or a business... fadedrose Nov 2013 #137

Depends upon how you define socialism Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #144

Rec for Excellent Discussion! 2banon Nov 2013 #151

conversation riverwalker Nov 2013 #153

They can still make it work without oil money Joel thakkar Nov 2013 #188

I think it would only work on a small scale. PlanetaryOrbit Nov 2013 #157

Well that's a silly question. It's NOT fascism of course. Lodestar Nov 2013 #159

welcome to DU gopiscrap Nov 2013 #169

Thanks for the welcome! n/t Lodestar Nov 2013 #190

you're welcome, hope we can learn from you and you us gopiscrap Nov 2013 #191

it follows jesus more closely. pansypoo53219 Nov 2013 #160

I don't think Jesus would have liked capitalism Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #175

It Sure Trumps Capitalism On Steroids - For About 99% Of Us colsohlibgal Nov 2013 #164

I'm not converted... brooklynite Nov 2013 #168

Worked for whom? YoungDemCA Nov 2013 #182

Name a country that has successfully implemented a socialist economic structure? brooklynite Nov 2013 #183

Define "success" YoungDemCA Nov 2013 #184

I've been more of a fan of anarchism. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #176

Great - send me your computer and TV set, will you? brooklynite Nov 2013 #185

Cute. NuclearDem Nov 2013 #186

Not a thing. PowerToThePeople Nov 2013 #180

The big secret no one wants to discuss is Blue_Tires Nov 2013 #192