General Discussion

Tommy_Carcetti

(44,501 posts)

79. First degree versus Second Degree murder.

Tue Nov 19, 2013, 12:46 PM

Nov 2013

Only First Degree Murder requires proof of intent to kill and premeditation.

George Zimmerman was never charged with first degree murder. Never.

Most people, myself included, don't believe that George Zimmerman got out of the car so that he could shoot and kill Trayvon Martin in cold blood. But he wasn't charged with 1st Degree murder, so that's pretty much irrelevant.

He was charged with 2nd Degree Murder, which only requires that he act with a conscious disregard for human life. And you have a guy who already knows police are on the way, and yet he gets out of the car. Armed. While cursing "these assholes, they always get away" and "fucking punks." (And it turns out he had just been a big fight with his wife.) So it could clearly be argued that George Zimmerman was not in the right state of mind that night, yet he consciously took actions which he knew could have deadly consequences. Mainly trying to play the police officer that he wasn't and attempting to detain Trayvon for the crime of "being up to no good."

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During the Zimmerman trial, we have had DUers argue for his acquittal, which, of course, happened... [View all] MrScorpio Nov 2013 OP

What's changed? Decaffeinated Nov 2013 #1

He was a dangerous scumbag, then, who deserved to thrown in jail and left there... MrScorpio Nov 2013 #3

Exactly. FourScore Nov 2013 #67

Excellent points, all MrScorpio Nov 2013 #108

I noticed also tblue Nov 2013 #118

And let's not forget his other scumbaggery - molesting his cousin. nt Stardust Nov 2013 #146

Yes, excellent wrapup, FourScore.. Cha Nov 2013 #162

We have more evidence of poor judgement and violent tendencies on Zimmerman's part. yardwork Nov 2013 #4

That's exactly my point MrScorpio Nov 2013 #7

While it was not allowed to be introduced during the avebury Nov 2013 #46

One clarification, please Orrex Nov 2013 #106

He was majoring in criminal justice and one of his avebury Nov 2013 #110

Ah, thanks! Orrex Nov 2013 #112

The instructor's testimony shot a canon shot thru GZ's avebury Nov 2013 #123

The prosecution also did a poor job putting the pieces together, imo. yardwork Nov 2013 #148

Agreed. I think that they easily could have avebury Nov 2013 #151

I know. I'm not surprised by anything that has happened since the trial. yardwork Nov 2013 #147

Nothing aside from yet another violent act from him Bjorn Against Nov 2013 #5

He has proven to most that he really is a scumbag, violent, bigot steeped in guns. Hoyt Nov 2013 #20

What's changed is that it took him terrorizing non-blacks to get some people to Liberal_Stalwart71 Nov 2013 #48

+1 treestar Nov 2013 #100

We can only imagine how Trayvon's Cha Nov 2013 #163

Surely the precogs should have seen this coming! kiawah Nov 2013 #117

Proof that his intentions are murderous? Rex Nov 2013 #137

nothing from the events of Feb. 2012 hfojvt Nov 2013 #157

I said it at the time...murder one. His phone call in this incident should msanthrope Nov 2013 #2

I felt the same way but I think that the OP is asking yardwork Nov 2013 #6

+1 JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #28

There's someone I'm waiting for as well MrScorpio Nov 2013 #30

My JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #45

I just want to let you know that the one that I was waiting for showed up. MrScorpio Nov 2013 #187

Found her JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #192

Yes Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #8

Would you care to elaborate? nt MrScorpio Nov 2013 #12

It was never a question of acquittal being deserved or not. Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #13

I'll ask you simply... MrScorpio Nov 2013 #14

No, I never believed his story fully Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #18

Let me get this straight... MrScorpio Nov 2013 #22

He was not charged with culpability? Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #33

"This was a situation where both parties acted wrongly" MrScorpio Nov 2013 #36

No Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #38

That's because my POV is predicated on the firm belief that Martin was an innocent victim... MrScorpio Nov 2013 #59

Understood Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #75

Thank you for your spirited defense of Zimmerman MrScorpio Nov 2013 #99

I have never spoken ill of the dead Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #109

I imagine many people get frustrated when they are forced to construct their own martyrdom LanternWaste Nov 2013 #115

Nailed it Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #119

Beautifully articulated, Mr. Scorpio! n/t FourScore Nov 2013 #90

If I remember correctly, there were lesser charge choices... Little Star Nov 2013 #66

Only on the killing of a human being Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #77

the jury FORGOT that he could have been found guilty of manslaughter.... bettyellen Nov 2013 #84

Yeah, that's it Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #85

The flaw in this argument IS the "self-defense" claim, which appears now more vapid than ever. FourScore Nov 2013 #88

For most part I agree with you. Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #97

Actually It Was Known erpowers Nov 2013 #131

I'm not totally on board with your thinking Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #134

If You Believe Zimmerman erpowers Nov 2013 #139

To my point Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #143

Stand Your Ground erpowers Nov 2013 #121

Fair point. Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #124

I've seen no evidence that Trayvon acted wrongly. I think he was shot in cold blood. yardwork Nov 2013 #150

Well, it's available to be seen. Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #154

Maybe the cops should have investigated the shooting properly from the start... Blue_Tires Nov 2013 #149

I don't think he deserved his acquital. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #9

There was never any doubt on my part, for which Zimmerman should have been given Aristus Nov 2013 #10

I always considered Zimmerman culpable. Lizzie Poppet Nov 2013 #11

I agree quinnox Nov 2013 #16

You are in error. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #21

Maybe Martin didn't want to let the whack job with a gun know where his family lived. Hoyt Nov 2013 #26

Thank you. Lizzie Poppet Nov 2013 #27

Its bunk. kcr Nov 2013 #31

You are welcome to try and debunk it. The transcripts and recording of the 911 call are readily... eqfan592 Nov 2013 #34

Yes, they're readily availble. And do not confirm what you claim they do. kcr Nov 2013 #43

He had already run from the location of his car by the time the dispatcher told him he didn't need.. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #47

He obviously didn't go back to his car. kcr Nov 2013 #55

Like I said, he did indeed chase Martin for a short distance. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #60

No, he didn't merely give his location kcr Nov 2013 #63

You're right, my mistake eqfan592 Nov 2013 #74

And that it no way indicates that Martin deliberately double backed to attack him kcr Nov 2013 #86

Gee. Why do so many people disagree STILL disagree with all your wrong facts? kcr Nov 2013 #29

Because a lot of people want to think he's guilty. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #42

Lookit all the arrows! kcr Nov 2013 #51

The arrows are there because those are locations mentioned by Zimmerman in the 911 recording. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #54

And you obviously didn't comprehend my reply kcr Nov 2013 #56

Feel free to be as obtuse as you like. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #61

Oh, I know kcr Nov 2013 #65

Don't forget the 911 call, eye witness reports, etc, etc. nt eqfan592 Nov 2013 #71

What about them? kcr Nov 2013 #80

Fact is, Zman started the incident, grabbed his gun, took off after unarmed kid who was shot. Hoyt Nov 2013 #83

Distances and timing make it as likely Zimmerman followed as not csziggy Nov 2013 #132

As opposed to those that are convinced he is innocent. Rex Nov 2013 #195

Actually, Zimmerman told the Dispatcher to have the police call avebury Nov 2013 #57

"He clearly doubled back at some point to confront Zimmerman." Bullshit. Pure and utter bullshit. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #58

Call bullshit all you like. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #70

Far too many questions of the moron variety kcr Nov 2013 #73

Yeah, calling me a moron is the line. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #76

No, the question is moronic. kcr Nov 2013 #81

First degree versus Second Degree murder. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #79

That's a fair argument there. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #82

Really? "the fact that Zimmerman stopped his pursuit" csziggy Nov 2013 #133

Martin didn't go directly home because he was afraid of Zimmerman following him home, FourScore Nov 2013 #91

But did that require a confrontation? eqfan592 Nov 2013 #96

Zman initiated it when he grabbed his gun and took off after the unarmed kid for no reason. Hoyt Nov 2013 #104

Zimmerman DID continue to pursue, he said so in the video... on it's face your premise is wrong uponit7771 Nov 2013 #95

You can hear him stop running on the call. If he was pursuing it wasn't at a run, that's for sure. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #101

that doesn't mean he didn't pursue him after he was told not to... in the video explanation he uponit7771 Nov 2013 #107

You can hear him stop running on the call? Got a link to that? Rex Nov 2013 #140

Just Because He Stopped Running erpowers Nov 2013 #136

Wow so many factual errors in your post. Rex Nov 2013 #138

B.S. With all due respect. /nt yardwork Nov 2013 #152

I read something at the time that hit me hard, What if zimmy had DiverDave Nov 2013 #15

+1. Well put. Hoyt Nov 2013 #23

+1, I saw that... Z didn't ask anything. uponit7771 Nov 2013 #98

I had a similar thought. What if, Soundman Nov 2013 #111

Exactly. While on the phone with Sanford PD Zimmerman could have said something csziggy Nov 2013 #135

Yes, there was no choice but to acquit on the facts given. cheyanne Nov 2013 #17

DO you think that he got away with murder? MrScorpio Nov 2013 #25

hopefully there will be sufficient evidence this time Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #39

I'm not hopeful of that JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #89

He may be a bad actor with plenty of problems, cheyanne Nov 2013 #114

Well you are wrong, he murdered a boy walking home in cold blood. Rex Nov 2013 #141

Oddly enough, the criminal justice system disagrees with you. nt Llewlladdwr Nov 2013 #161

Not really, a handful of jurors disagree with me. Please don't Rex Nov 2013 #194

I thought Zimmerman was going to be acquitted FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #19

Zimmerman was and is guilty of murder....I bet he thanks the NRA regularly Tippy Nov 2013 #24

Based on the evidence, no I don't believe Zimmerman was guilty of murder. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #32

You the only other person that I've seen on DU, besides me, state that it was cpwm17 Nov 2013 #50

Not a popular opinion to hold. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #52

Since DU is a major source of mine of what's going on in the world (well DU is the best site) cpwm17 Nov 2013 #68

Couldn't agree more. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #78

I thought that the prosecution overreached for the reasons you listed... Kaleva Nov 2013 #35

Manslaughter was a lesser included charge Gothmog Nov 2013 #155

IMO Mr Dixon Nov 2013 #37

I'll be brave and state my opinion as I have recently cpwm17 Nov 2013 #40

"So we must assume that it was TM that came back to confront GZ." No we don't. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #72

It is entirely plausible that since TM didn't like being followed cpwm17 Nov 2013 #127

There's only evidence of a physical altercation between the two. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #145

That is exactly what can happen Rilgin Nov 2013 #128

Indulging you for a minute.... Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #144

no. totally unknown to each other Rilgin Nov 2013 #159

That doesn't sound anything like the Martin case. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #160

Hard to question your assumptions Rilgin Nov 2013 #184

The posts in this thread are making me just as ill gollygee Nov 2013 #41

If the same facts had been presented in that case as this one, my opinion would have been unchanged. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #44

Not if the white teenage "kid" assaulted the black man cpwm17 Nov 2013 #53

Zimmerman is a scumbag. But I didn't think then that there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #49

The law is a very technical thing MissMillie Nov 2013 #62

I hated him from the first time I set eyes on him. Whisp Nov 2013 #64

there is lots of racism JI7 Nov 2013 #69

Do you have examples? HooptieWagon Nov 2013 #87

Look up thread JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #93

Many Gungeoneers supported him. I think it was because they could see themselves in Zman's shoes. Hoyt Nov 2013 #94

I don't recall any such statements... HooptieWagon Nov 2013 #120

You just said it happened. If in fact they were banned, they are probably back under another name. Hoyt Nov 2013 #122

So you are unable to link to a QUOTE that you just posted? cleanhippie Nov 2013 #166

Did you support Zman? If so, that is essentially what you and your gun fancier buddies were saying. Hoyt Nov 2013 #167

Can YOU link to the QUOTE you posted? If not, you admit you FABRICATED it. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #169

I did not fabricate anything. I posted my interpretation of Zman supporters' reason for excusing Z's Hoyt Nov 2013 #170

You posted a QUOTE that doesn't exist. You FABRICATED A QUOTE. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #171

I quoted the essence of what Zman supporters were saying. Your turn -- Did you support Zman? Hoyt Nov 2013 #174

YOU POSTED A QUOTE THAT DOESN'T EXIST. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #175

First, my posts here are not formal papers. Second quotation marks were used to express gun fanciers Hoyt Nov 2013 #179

YOU POSTED A QUOTE THAT YOU FABRICATED FROM THIN AIR. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #180

Derived from the support expressed by Gungeoneers right here on DU, you included. Hoyt Nov 2013 #181

YOU POSTED A QUOTE THAT YOU MADE UP. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #182

That's because those statements and the QUOTE do not exist. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #172

IIRC.... HooptieWagon Nov 2013 #177

You do recall correctly. That about sums it up. But the poster above cares little for facts. cleanhippie Nov 2013 #183

Considering the facts as presented lancer78 Nov 2013 #92

I agree with you 100% .... Myrina Nov 2013 #102

Sorry. I'm not a fan of Minority Report justice. WowSeriously Nov 2013 #103

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #105

Trials are based on the facts in evidence... Jeff In Milwaukee Nov 2013 #113

Correct, Zman's prejudices and fears shouldn't have caused him to grab his gun and stalk/bully TM. Hoyt Nov 2013 #125

Zimmerman is and was a POS liar abelenkpe Nov 2013 #116

Come on Zimmy fans, stand your ground!! Kingofalldems Nov 2013 #126

at the very very very very least DonCoquixote Nov 2013 #129

The law is the law davidn3600 Nov 2013 #130

You will never get gun trolls to admit to wrongness, they would watch the sun explode first. Rex Nov 2013 #142

Good luck, there's at least one big one who is being very quiet this week and they are still active. Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #153

I'm waiting for him to pop up too JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #176

Still crickets. Starry Messenger Nov 2013 #185

Upthread JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #190

I thought that the prosecution did a poor job but that does not mean that I approved of verdict Gothmog Nov 2013 #156

A lot of them were trolls KamaAina Nov 2013 #158

Bingo B Calm Nov 2013 #191

Ask again without emotion. flvegan Nov 2013 #164

I don't think that really what the OP was asking. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #165

The question should be amended Boom Sound 416 Nov 2013 #168

Under the laws clearly written by a dipshit gunfucker bobclark86 Nov 2013 #173

So juries are to convict because of what one MIGHT do in the future? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #178

KnR, Mr Scorpio, KnR Hekate Nov 2013 #186

He should have been in jail for instigating the confrontation krispos42 Nov 2013 #188

He is a gun bully. 99Forever Nov 2013 #189

He's a bully period - gun or not. TBF Nov 2013 #193

Gun bullies are a breed unto themselves. 99Forever Nov 2013 #196

Maybe so - and it seems like there are many of them TBF Nov 2013 #197

Without doubt there were too many her supporting that murdering scum etherealtruth Nov 2013 #198

If I didn't want to hear from you, I would have blocked you... MrScorpio Nov 2013 #199

You asked to hear from those that supported Z ... I didn't etherealtruth Nov 2013 #200

It's a free board MrScorpio Nov 2013 #201

From what I saw of the trial I was not convinced that that prosecution proved that ... spin Nov 2013 #202