General Discussion

stopbush

(24,852 posts)

45. It means nothing that the bullet was "badly misshapen" in the Australian test you mention.

Tue Nov 19, 2013, 08:29 PM

Nov 2013

Last edited Wed Nov 20, 2013, 01:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Anybody running such a test is tasked with the almost-impossible job of trying to recreate the event as closely as possible, including whether the bullet hit bone, and if it hit bone, how much and at what angle. That wasn't a concern for Oswald when he took his shots. But for the forensic team trying to recreate the shot, it is a concern.

They're firing from 88 yards, sometimes at a moving target. If they're off by a millimeter, the bullet is going to behave differently than it did going through JFK & Connally. Being off a bit means that the bullet may hit simulated bone that CE399 didn't hit.

I can't believe you'd put that forward as some kind of "a-HA!" moment to cast doubt on the SBT.

The best these tests can offer is proof of high probability/possibility that one theory or another is worth considering. In that respect, the tests you mention add a lot of cred to the single bullet theory - or fact - as it were.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

258 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Cold Case: JFK � NOVA program now online [View all] cpwm17 Nov 2013 OP

I thought it was fun when they didn't test the penetration capability... tridim Nov 2013 #1

Bullets can have a lot of power cpwm17 Nov 2013 #3

Fine, then they should have shown the test. tridim Nov 2013 #4

Great, now the folks that made this program are part of your great big conspiracy theory. cpwm17 Nov 2013 #7

Let them love their make believe. n-t Logical Nov 2013 #43

What conspiracy theory? mattclearing Nov 2013 #253

You missed this part of the post then... The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #255

No, I didn't. mattclearing Nov 2013 #257

Yes perfect. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #258

And it had to be pristine after its journey rusty fender Nov 2013 #65

They discussed the condition of the bullet and explained everything including the exact way it kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #82

Completely believable. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #16

Great, then they should have shown the test. tridim Nov 2013 #18

I never said your ribs were mostly water. I said your whole body is. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #20

We much have watched different shows because they showed all the bullet tests on the show I watched. kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #83

I've seen exactly that test performed on other TV shows that deal with stopbush Nov 2013 #40

That was an awesome show oswaldactedalone Nov 2013 #175

LOL, so you do not believe one bullet did it? Now that cracks me up! nt Logical Nov 2013 #42

Ever notice that no one who knows guns doubts that? NutmegYankee Nov 2013 #50

NOVA showed that the bullet was able to penetrate nearly three feet of wood block struggle4progress Nov 2013 #79

They completely explained Connelly's wounds. kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #81

I saw it and was pretty satified that it was Oswald alone. Before watching it I thought it might OregonBlue Nov 2013 #2

Thanks for being open to the evidence n/t cpwm17 Nov 2013 #9

I found Nova's forensic explanation pretty compelling left is right Nov 2013 #29

I thought so too. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #33

It's not a "magic bullet" anyway. It is easy to see the trajectory of the bullet duffyduff Nov 2013 #55

The only way it could be a magic bullet Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #126

Exited the throat? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #135

The tracheotomy incision obliterated the exit wound. Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #138

How did a tracheotomy incision obliterate a big gaping exit wound? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #141

Who said it was a big gaping wound? Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #150

Oh, so the bullet only started to tumble after it exited the throat. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #152

That would be correct. Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #156

So what made the bullet start to tumble AFTER it left the body? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #159

Watch the show. I'm not going to type it's entire content for you. Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #161

Does the show say the bullet started to tumble after it exited the throat? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #162

You're being silly now. Mr.Bill Nov 2013 #163

The silliness is not mine. Do you think the necktie caused the bullet to spin? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #167

Have you seen the Cold Case documentary? The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #181

If you really want to know, it had to do with the release of pressure through the exit wound. stopbush Nov 2013 #213

You really should go and watch the piece. This was not a regular bullet. It was an Italian one that OregonBlue Nov 2013 #187

The suspicion of multiple shooters does not rest on the magic bullet controversy nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #190

Why don't you watch the show? cpwm17 Nov 2013 #196

How do you obscure an exit wound from a sideways bullet Ace Acme Nov 2013 #223

You've made some seventy comments on this thread concerning a NOVA program cpwm17 Nov 2013 #224

Why should I be afraid of a TV show? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #225

You should watch the show, Abe. zappaman Nov 2013 #227

A show recommended by irrational people is likely to be an irrational show. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #228

"irrational people" zappaman Nov 2013 #229

The kind who think "snork" and smilies makes an argument. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #231

LOL! zappaman Nov 2013 #232

Thanks for proving my point. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #234

You're most welcome, "Ace". zappaman Nov 2013 #235

Ditto here. kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #84

That Oswald may have been the only sharpshooter on that day does not mean that he "acted alone." JDPriestly Nov 2013 #112

What was Oswalds motive? Was he perhaps hired by someone? JaneyVee Nov 2013 #5

Quite simple. Archae Nov 2013 #6

Easier than that: Oswald was felt he was a loser and had delusions he wanted to be remembered duffyduff Nov 2013 #56

If that's all there is, then why are the files secret for 75 years? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #62

You realize that a lot of the records being kept secret stopbush Nov 2013 #94

You know what's in the secret files! You must be very well connected! Ace Acme Nov 2013 #96

And BOOM there it is. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #107

The Confirmation Biased think every click is a BOOM. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #110

So confirmation bias applies to everyone? The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #115

If every correction is a personal attack, then no correction is permitted. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #118

I did point it out. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #120

I never denied the Zapruder film. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #121

It always amuses me when people talk through their hats, as you are doing now. stopbush Nov 2013 #114

What madness drives anyone to kill another human being, nyquil_man Nov 2013 #8

Oswald was a goofy character CANDO Nov 2013 #15

This explains more than the pure conjecture that he was hired. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #23

Just saw this online Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #10

That's a good catch concerning JFK's arching back cpwm17 Nov 2013 #12

It would be silly to think the CIA could have had a part in this... solarhydrocan Nov 2013 #11

Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower cpwm17 Nov 2013 #14

Great history lesson, but that does not prove anyone other than LHO fired the shots. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #17

Expecting proof before there's been a proper investigation is unreasonable. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #63

Don't tell me. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #66

Haven't seen it. I'm not particularly interested in the Magic Bullet theory. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #67

That's cool. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #69

The documents that will remain classified for another 25 years. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #70

Got a link? Something academic or peer reviewed? I always hear CTers talk about the secret files. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #74

Kudos to you for your wonderful post Samantha Nov 2013 #53

Yes, and scientists led the HSCA to the conclusion of conspiracy in the death of President Kennedy. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #13

That evidence has been more recently been rebuked based on science too. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #19

An entry in wikipedia does not rebuke the HSCA findings. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #21

I did not say it did. I said the science did. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #22

There are scientists who disagree with the scientists you quoted. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #24

I am sure you will provide some links to those scientists who disagree with that evidence. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #25

Any scientist can conduct experiments and state their studies are best. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #26

Yes ANY scientist can, but any scientist did not. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #28

This is the original study that Sabato himself bought and paid for - for his own book. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #30

Says you. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #32

The Warren Commission was not privileged to deny science either meanit Nov 2013 #51

Perhaps you could point to the evidence ignored by the WCR. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #52

The flaws of the WCR are well known, such as the Magic Bullet theory for one, meanit Nov 2013 #59

You should fact check yourself before blathering further. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #61

I never mentioned if the HSCA did or didn't agree with the WCR about the single bullet. meanit Nov 2013 #75

So if I understand you correctly... The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #77

All that "stands" is that they got it wrong. stopbush Nov 2013 #49

You're grasping at CT straws. stopbush Nov 2013 #31

The HSCA would need to reconvene to issue a statement accepting the rebuke. stopbush Nov 2013 #47

This recent study isn't Wikipedia. Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #27

After a decade and a half of investigations into the crime, nyquil_man Nov 2013 #36

And there are scientists who say the world is 3000 years old. So what?? n-t Logical Nov 2013 #44

I think we're supposed to forget that ever happened, like the Saudi pages of the Joint Congressional yurbud Nov 2013 #216

I saw another one of these recently where they had a team in Australia KurtNYC Nov 2013 #34

None of those objects was anything like a human skull traveling a 11-12 mph away from the shooter. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #35

How about about a few more attacks on CTers? HangOnKids Nov 2013 #37

Pot. Kettle. Black. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #38

I am here to laugh HangOnKids Nov 2013 #39

Sure you are. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #41

313 is blurred, the SecSrvc to the left rear of the car were splattered and they KurtNYC Nov 2013 #57

The motorcycle cop was sprayed too. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #58

I watched the program cpwm17 Nov 2013 #60

There's no snap forward. Frame 313 is blurred, Zapruder jumped. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #64

Evidence that Zapruder jumped is questionable. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #68

Frame 313 is smeared. You can see the difference between 312 and 313. Check the highlights. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #71

Smear schmear. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #86

You can see the highlights smeared for several inches in 313. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #88

What about that smear? The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #91

The smear of the highlights in 313 is not present in the same highlights in 312. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #97

I never said that, nor implied that. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #189

Your Belgian website is anonymous work Ace Acme Nov 2013 #192

Yes, you have pointed that out like five times now. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #198

Someone with the psuedonym "Ace Acme" is knocking anonymous work? Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #207

Only a fool would accept my animations at face value. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #208

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen! Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #209

Anonymous science is bad science. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #218

You're wrong cpwm17 Nov 2013 #72

Says an anonymous internet poster Ace Acme Nov 2013 #85

I believe my eyes. zappaman Nov 2013 #87

It's not your eyes, it's an animation on the internet. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #89

"it's an animation on the internet." zappaman Nov 2013 #93

Its not an animation. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #90

It's a 2-frame animation that is alleged to be from the Zapruder film. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #100

Good grief. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #102

Not cynicism--rigor. I happen to know how easy it would be to alter the images. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #105

These personal attacks suck. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #113

I never said the Zapruder film was a cartoon. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #127

Sorry, "animation". The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #132

I never said the Zapruder film was an animation. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #133

More personal attacks. What else you got? The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #136

More anonymous unauthenticated "evidence" from you. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #137

OK I'll play your game. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #145

Now you change the subject. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #151

Sure, you can take it however you want. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #158

More changing the subject I see. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #160

OK, I am willing to throw that out. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #165

No. I have no interest in the magic bullet. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #168

Or, forensic evidence that indicates there was no magic bullet. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #170

Oh there was no bullet that caused 7 wounds? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #172

Yes, there was a single bullet that caused seven wounds. No magic, only physics. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #186

There's an obvious snap forward Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #92

Do you always rely on anonymous internet posters as expert witnesses? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #101

No, I'm relying on the obvious evidence right before my eyes. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #104

You're relying on the "obvious evidence" of an unauthenticated video sample. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #106

No, I'm not. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #109

Whose stills? Your epistemic incompetence is showing. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #111

Completely irrelevant. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #116

I never said the film was altered. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #125

So add incompetence to stupid, credulous, and irresponsible. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #117

It's incompetent to credulously accept unauthenticated evidence. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #128

Nope, the smear is not "well discussed" in that video William Seger Nov 2013 #184

Kicking for Ace Acme. nt The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #185

What kind of camera was Zapruder using, and how did the shutter work?` Ace Acme Nov 2013 #194

Bell & Howell 414PD William Seger Nov 2013 #206

I'll leave the thinking to people who have real names, "William" Ace Acme Nov 2013 #233

Good idea, Abe. zappaman Nov 2013 #238

It means nothing that the bullet was "badly misshapen" in the Australian test you mention. stopbush Nov 2013 #45

Good point. nyquil_man Nov 2013 #46

Exactly. But don't tell that to the CTists. It might spoil their holiday. stopbush Nov 2013 #48

I'll take a look at it. n/t duffyduff Nov 2013 #54

Nova Huh? Did they include the core columns this time? Junkdrawer Nov 2013 #73

There were no core columns. Everybody knows that. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #76

This bunny cage experiment may help you understand better... zappaman Nov 2013 #78

Maybe it helps you understand something; I doubt your understanding is true Ace Acme Nov 2013 #98

No, they covered very nicely how the head shot made his head move BACK like it did. kestrel91316 Nov 2013 #80

What's really amazing is that the findings of the WCR stand up to advances in science, stopbush Nov 2013 #95

Interesting that you seem unable to distinguish Ace Acme Nov 2013 #99

What else you got besides personal attack? The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #103

What makes you think I have a conspiracy theory? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #108

The names of US agents and informants in places like Cuba, for one thing. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #119

Do you think those names were given to the Warren Commission? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #123

Your blatant denial of the forensic evidence suggests you have a conspiracy theory. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #122

It's not a conspiracy to hide evidence from the public for 75 years? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #124

No, it's not. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #129

What is sensitive about the assassination if a lone nut did it? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #130

The names of US agents and informants in Cuba, Russia, et cetera are sensitive, clearly Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #131

Those names were surely redacted before the Commission even got the document. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #134

Independent analysis, for one: Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #140

So you're claiming a 1976 study authenticated the Belgian website? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #142

It authenticated the information presented. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #143

I guess you didn't get the memo. Josiah Thompson says he was wrong. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #146

Which doesn't contradict the conclusions of the Itek analysis. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #148

I'm not making any claims. I'm just poking holes in yours. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #153

No, you aren't. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #154

That's an empty claim. Thanks for playing. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #157

Not really, no Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #173

You seem to have no concept of sourcing your documentation Ace Acme Nov 2013 #177

..... Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #182

Verifiable by whom? The website author is anonymous. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #193

Says a 9/11 truther. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #197

So are you changing the subject, or attempting to refute an Ace Acme Nov 2013 #199

Oh Abe... zappaman Nov 2013 #200

Pointing out that your claims to "science" are absurd. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #202

Your false dichotomy is irrational. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #221

Itek isn't anonymous Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #239

You are, and Thompson appears to repudiate Itek. Try providing a Ace Acme Nov 2013 #246

Thompson has no credentials or expertise in forensics or photo analysis. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #248

Thompson is an expert on the assassination with a reputation to uphold. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #250

Which doesn't qualify him as a photographic analyst. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #251

Anonymous web authors have better credentials than Thompson? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #252

More personal attack. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #139

What personal attack? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #144

This one. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #149

That's a question, not an attack. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #155

I have an AA... The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #164

What kind of historian would expect us to believe the claimed credentials Ace Acme Nov 2013 #166

So, when I point out your personal attack you consider that a personal attack. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #169

More dodging. What kind of historian would expect us to believe the claimed Ace Acme Nov 2013 #171

And more personal attack. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #174

No, I'm not ignorant. Thanks for asking! Ace Acme Nov 2013 #178

I said I was willing to throw it out twice now. Make this the third. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #180

Ad hominem. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #176

Your persistent inability to distinguish between the Zapruder film itself and a Belgian Ace Acme Nov 2013 #179

Easily verifiable as being images from the Zapruder film. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #183

Easily verified by whom? By confirmation biased zealots? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #191

By anyone with access to the film. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #195

I'll suppose that Josiah Thomson is aware of the Itek Ace Acme Nov 2013 #201

What are Josiah Thompson's credentials? Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #203

If you don't know, you don't know much about the JFK hit. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #204

I know, but do you? Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #205

He's an expert on the JFK hit. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #210

He's not a forensic scientist. He's not a photographic expert. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #211

Neither is your anonymous Belgian website author. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #219

We're not talking about that anymore. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #240

Why aren't we talking about your inauthenticated anonymous web author anymore? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #241

No, we're talking about Itek because it reaches the exact same conclusions. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #242

Says an anonymous internet poster who cites no authorities. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #243

I provided a citation. Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #244

Oh, so you cited a Big Fat Bible we're s'posed to read cover to cover? nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #245

... Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #247

Nice try at phishing. You must think I'm stupid. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #249

That video actually PROVES he's incompetent at photo analysis William Seger Nov 2013 #217

When did you show why he's wrong? I seem to have missed that part. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #220

In the same post where I said I'm not gonna play your stupid games in GD William Seger Nov 2013 #226

A self-referential re-iterative loop is where you showed why Thompson was wrong? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #230

Thanks for posting the link davidpdx Nov 2013 #147

BTW, Koch Brothers own Nova for the last few years. librechik Nov 2013 #188

Oh, crap. Will no one rid us of these turbulent deceivers. ancianita Nov 2013 #212

Nova is a great show. Please point out how it changed with the Koch sponsorship. n-t Logical Nov 2013 #214

that would take too long to answer. Try this: In principle are you in favor of just one sponsor librechik Nov 2013 #236

Nice try, I love Nova, watch all of them, name your BEST CASE of them changing the content... Logical Nov 2013 #237

Seems to me the Koch's would pimp CT rather than the hard science. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #215

How do you know what the Koch brothers want? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #222

Because they are my uncles and they told me. The Midway Rebel Nov 2013 #254

kick BootinUp Nov 2013 #256