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Octafish

(55,745 posts)
88. 'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE
Fri Nov 22, 2013, 01:10 PM
Nov 2013

As President Kennedy worked toward peace in Vietnam, someone was trying to keep a war going.

Here's the column from the guy on the scene that was quoted by Arthur Krock in The New York Times:



'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam

Richard Starnes
The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power.

Twice the CIA flatly refused to carry out instructions from Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, according to a high United States source here.

In one of these instances the CIA frustrated a plan of action Mr. Lodge brought with him from Washington because the agency disagreed with it.

This led to a dramatic confrontation between Mr. Lodge and John Richardson, chief of the huge CIA apparatus here. Mr. Lodge failed to move Mr. Richardson, and the dispute was bucked back to Washington. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and CIA Chief John A. McCone were unable to resolve the conflict, and the matter is now reported to be awaiting settlement by President Kennedy.

It is one of the developments expected to be covered in Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's report to Mr. Kennedy.

Others Critical, Too

Other American agencies here are incredibly bitter about the CIA.

"If the United States ever experiences a 'Seven Days in May' it will come from the CIA, and not from the Pentagon," one U.S. official commented caustically.

("Seven Days in May" is a fictional account of an attempted military coup to take over the U.S. Government.)

CIA "spooks" (a universal term for secret agents here) have penetrated every branch of the American community in Saigon, until non-spook Americans here almost seem to be suffering a CIA psychosis.

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans.

Another American officer, talking about the CIA, acidly commented: "You'd think they'd have learned something from Cuba but apparently they didn't."

Few Know CIA Strength

Few people other than Mr. Richardson and his close aides know the actual CIA strength here, but a widely used figure is 600. Many are clandestine agents known only to a few of their fellow spooks.

Even Mr. Richardson is a man about whom it is difficult to learn much in Saigon. He is said to be a former OSS officer, and to have served with distinction in the CIA in the Philippines.

A surprising number of the spooks are known to be involved in their ghostly trade and some make no secret of it.

"There are a number of spooks in the U.S. Information Service, in the U.S. Operations mission, in every aspect of American official and commercial life here, " one official - presumably a non-spook - said.

"They represent a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone," he added.

Coupled with the ubiquitous secret police of Ngo Dinh Nhu, a surfeit of spooks has given Saigon an oppressive police state atmosphere.

The Nhu-Richardson relationship is a subject of lively speculation. The CIA continues to pay the special forces which conducted brutal raids on Buddhist temples last Aug. 21, altho in fairness it should be pointed out that the CIA is paying these goons for the war against communist guerillas, not Buddhist bonzes (priests).

Hand Over Millions

Nevertheless, on the first of every month, the CIA dutifully hands over a quarter million American dollars to pay these special forces.

Whatever else it buys, it doesn't buy any solid information on what the special forces are up to. The Aug. 21 raids caught top U.S. officials here and in Washington flat-footed.

Nhu ordered the special forces to crush the Buddhist priests, but the CIA wasn't let in on the secret. (Some CIA button men now say they warned their superiors what was coming up, but in any event the warning of harsh repression was never passed to top officials here or in Washington.)

Consequently, Washington reacted unsurely to the crisis. Top officials here and at home were outraged at the news the CIA was paying the temple raiders, but the CIA continued the payments.

It may not be a direct subsidy for a religious war against the country's Buddhist majority, but it comes close to that.

And for every State Department aide here who will tell you, "Dammit, the CIA is supposed to gather information, not make policy, but policy-making is what they're doing here," there are military officers who scream over the way the spooks dabble in military operations.

A Typical Example

For example, highly trained trail watchers are an important part of the effort to end Viet Cong infiltration from across the Laos and Cambodia borders. But if the trailer watchers spot incoming Viet Congs, they report it to the CIA in Saigon, and in the fullness of time, the spooks may tell the military.

One very high American official here, a man who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy, likened the CIA's growth to a malignancy, and added he was not sure even the White House could control it any longer.

Unquestionably Mr. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor both got an earful from people who are beginning to fear the CIA is becoming a Third Force co-equal with President Diem's regime and the U.S. Government - and answerable to neither.

There is naturally the highest interest here as to whether Mr. McNamara will persuade Mr. Kennedy something ought to be done about it.



Details: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6918706

You are most welcome, A-Schwarzenegger. I very much value your friendship on DU and I very much appreciate you grokking the situation.
Here's what the HSCA thought about Mark Lane: stopbush Nov 2013 #1
CIA Director Bush helped destroy HSCA investigation. Octafish Nov 2013 #7
So, on the one hand, you hold out the HSCA as a beacon of fact finding stopbush Nov 2013 #15
"I demand evidence" WTF? RobertEarl Nov 2013 #64
You sure do a lot of bloviating, but you've yet to offer an iota of evidence stopbush Nov 2013 #66
Bull malarkey RobertEarl Nov 2013 #68
I see. You're the type of person who argues that you can't prove George Washington really existed. stopbush Nov 2013 #69
Read the OP again RobertEarl Nov 2013 #71
''Bloviating'' is a term of art. Octafish Nov 2013 #103
Thank you my friend! zappaman Nov 2013 #108
I'd still side with Jim Garrison than the likes of you. Octafish Nov 2013 #110
I did comment on what Lane wrote. zappaman Nov 2013 #112
Capitalism's Invisible Army Octafish Nov 2013 #82
Blah, blah, blah. stopbush Nov 2013 #91
''Your questions are almost as dumb as the committee's'' Octafish Nov 2013 #96
More boring cut-n-paste from Octa who refuses to answer why they believe the HSCA stopbush Nov 2013 #98
What part of the OP is ''cut and paste,'' stopbush? Octafish Nov 2013 #100
Answer the question: why do you consider the HSCA to be a reliable source stopbush Nov 2013 #101
No one's asking you to engage. That's your problem. Octafish Nov 2013 #104
Please look at YOUR post #7 in this thread: "CIA Director Bush helped destroy HSCA investigation." stopbush Nov 2013 #105
G. Robert Blakey’s 2003 Addendum to the PBS Interview: Octafish Dec 2013 #171
Blakey believes the mob was involved and will probably go to his grave believing that. stopbush Dec 2013 #172
So, what Blakey said about the CIA isn't what Blakey said about the CIA? Octafish Dec 2013 #173
That would be learning fiction. stopbush Dec 2013 #174
Revelation 19.63 Octafish Dec 2013 #175
Why is it so important to you? notadmblnd Dec 2013 #177
"Smirk." - Poppy 'Skull & Boner' Bush (R - CIA - BFEE) Berlum Nov 2013 #78
Don't understand why certain DUers don't appreciate the BFEE connections to Dealey Plaza. Octafish Nov 2013 #106
Did Bush not know the patsy was supposed to be Oswald? Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #116
Odd is how that same George HW Bush in Dallas Nov. 22, 1963 shows up to head CIA 12 years later. Octafish Nov 2013 #145
That is odd. Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #146
Doesn't work for me, your act. Octafish Nov 2013 #147
Are you really accusing me of being here under false pretenses? Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #148
Like your exchange with Jim DiEugenio? You did all you could to drive him off. Octafish Nov 2013 #149
Speak plainly, sir. Are you accusing me of being here under false pretenses? Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #150
Or leave these foolish games and Meta distractions aside and start dealing with the evidence already Octafish Nov 2013 #151
so basically you aren't man enough to accuse Bolo straight up backwoodsbob Dec 2013 #161
No, I have not been 'payed' or paid to write about the assassination of President Kennedy. Octafish Dec 2013 #179
Of course he is. zappaman Dec 2013 #158
Odd thing for you to point out, considering what you write. Octafish Dec 2013 #180
Why do you accuse people of being paid zappaman Dec 2013 #181
They're your own words. Octafish Dec 2013 #184
There's a good analysis of the Parrott memo in Russ Baker's book 'Family of Secrets' Mc Mike Dec 2013 #186
Well said! Thank you, Mc Mike! Octafish Dec 2013 #189
I'm sorry that you sometimes take so much flack and displays of antipathy for posting good info. Mc Mike Dec 2013 #190
The problem for them is that no matter how they try to discredit ANYONE who doesn't march in sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #53
You must feel the same way about Obamacare. stopbush Nov 2013 #62
Mark Lane: The Original Shyster zappaman Nov 2013 #2
CIA Instructions to Media Assets Octafish Nov 2013 #8
You stand with a liar. zappaman Nov 2013 #10
So what? You defend the BFEE. Octafish Nov 2013 #11
I'm sure you can back up your smears? zappaman Nov 2013 #12
Not a smear when true. Octafish Nov 2013 #16
Show where I'm wrong. Otherwise don't libel me. zappaman Nov 2013 #18
LOL. Octafish Nov 2013 #24
LOL. zappaman Nov 2013 #26
journal.. feh. you're no REAL journalist man... you've never even been in a shootout!!1111 dionysus Nov 2013 #57
On the contrary... zappaman Nov 2013 #58
yeah but, but, do you have a bayonet, huh? a bullwhip? i think not sir. dionysus Nov 2013 #59
I think he means the many times you joke about the BFEE. Rex Nov 2013 #17
I'm quite sure he can speak for himself. zappaman Nov 2013 #21
Oh I know it is a joke. Rex Nov 2013 #22
True. zappaman Nov 2013 #25
Well, Rextradomous will make a prediction about the future Rex Nov 2013 #29
Hmmm.... zappaman Nov 2013 #31
I swear that man IS an alien! Rex Nov 2013 #32
Thank you, Rex. Octafish Nov 2013 #33
Well my on speculation is that he was a Russian double agent. Rex Nov 2013 #34
I noticed the high volume of repetitive re-postings of that same accusation Mc Mike Nov 2013 #48
Lol! Now you deny your own words? zappaman Nov 2013 #72
P. S. A. Mc Mike Nov 2013 #80
How is not believing Lane the same as supporting the Bush family? Nuclear Unicorn Nov 2013 #79
E. Hunt was such an upstanding man. Now I'm convinced, Hunt denied it, therefore it must be true. sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #55
"So much effort to prevent people from speaking their minds on this historical tragedy." zappaman Nov 2013 #56
Most of us, a majority of the people, want to see bullshit countered and don't everything their sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #65
E Howard Hunt planted fake cables in WH safe to make it look like JFK ordered Diem assassination... Octafish Nov 2013 #141
CIA caught red-handed in HSCA safe, a pattern of obstruction of justice in JFK assassination. Octafish Nov 2013 #142
Wow, thank you for that. Tampering with evidence. Yet nothing was done about it, and some wonder why sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #144
There's a special place in hell for Mark Lane. duffyduff Nov 2013 #95
Pretty lousy thing to say about anybody, let alone a good Democrat. Octafish Nov 2013 #97
I don't know what Brehm said, but Lane interviewed him on videotape. It's on You Tube. Zen Democrat Nov 2013 #109
I don't think Mark Lane is the kind of person you want to be standing with. DanTex Nov 2013 #3
You also need to learn more. Lane was there with Congressman Ryan. Octafish Nov 2013 #9
Umm yeah, but that's not the only time he was there. DanTex Nov 2013 #19
Yes. Octafish Nov 2013 #77
It's not about predicting, it's about claiming a CIA conspiracy. DanTex Nov 2013 #81
interesting, have read his book and thought it was good gopiscrap Nov 2013 #4
Two important works: 'Rush to Judgment' and 'Plausible Denial' Octafish Nov 2013 #13
Who is defending Bush on DU, Octafish? zappaman Nov 2013 #14
You, for one. Octafish Nov 2013 #20
I see jokes about your obsession zappaman Nov 2013 #23
Didn't you just say something about being smeared and how you don't like it? sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #63
Both of those books are full of lies and manipulations by Mr Mark Lane. stopbush Nov 2013 #27
How many times does Mark Lane mention CIA in 'Rush to Judgment'? Octafish Nov 2013 #152
You've got the wrong book. The CIA went after Lane's idiocies in in his POS book stopbush Dec 2013 #153
Good catch. zappaman Dec 2013 #154
Luckily, I knew that one off the top of my head. stopbush Dec 2013 #155
Speaking of assume. Octafish Dec 2013 #159
LOL! zappaman Dec 2013 #165
The point: CIA had no reason to stalk Lane in 1966. Octafish Dec 2013 #156
What's your source for that claim about the CIA stalking Lane? stopbush Dec 2013 #157
National Archives and Mark Lane Octafish Dec 2013 #160
Your link is useless. It says nothing about Mark Lane, stopbush Dec 2013 #162
Mark Lane talked about it in Pittsburgh. Octafish Dec 2013 #163
So, your first link WAS quite useless. stopbush Dec 2013 #164
You should try the truth sometime. Octafish Dec 2013 #176
Lane: Lawyer for "We The People" Patriot group and anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby frazzled Nov 2013 #5
Guilt by association is un-American. Lane is an attorney who represented two clients. Octafish Nov 2013 #28
I can't believe you're defending this guy frazzled Nov 2013 #35
It's easy. Mark Lane says we don't know the whole truth, but it looks like CIA conspiracy. Octafish Nov 2013 #38
"Guilt by association is un-American." Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #36
rofl. nt BootinUp Nov 2013 #127
I watched the 'Firing Line' debate between Lane and Buckley on YouTube the other day KurtNYC Nov 2013 #6
I thought Mark Lane was outstanding in that match-up. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #30
The only thing "outstanding" about Mark Lane is his outstanding in a field. Archae Nov 2013 #37
It doesn't matter, but I believe Mark Lane is Jewish. He also is an attorney... Octafish Nov 2013 #41
Mark Lane's involvement with Liberty Lobby references the JFK assassination. avaistheone1 Nov 2013 #50
False. zappaman Nov 2013 #52
Mel Ayton? The disinformationist? Octafish Nov 2013 #134
I'm pretty new to all the JFK conspiracy stuff, about the past 6-7 years or so. I was only 9 months Ghost in the Machine Nov 2013 #73
He does very well even as Buckley sneers and goes ad hom on him. KurtNYC Nov 2013 #42
Dr. Cyril Wecht believes it was a coup d'etat too. mother earth Nov 2013 #39
Thank you, mother earth. Dr. Wecht is a national treasure. Octafish Nov 2013 #46
YOU are a DU treasure, Octafish, keep the info coming. I look forward to your next reporting. mother earth Nov 2013 #47
+10000000000000000000000000 PCIntern Nov 2013 #49
... mother earth Nov 2013 #114
And yet when he was a part of the HSCA investigation, he agreed that the head wounds Bolo Boffin Nov 2013 #51
That's funny, because Wecht said something different to the HSCA Spider Jerusalem Nov 2013 #137
"Secret Government": taking a mile mathematic Nov 2013 #40
You must be new to the term, mathematic. Octafish Nov 2013 #43
Enjoy your stay. n/t mattclearing Nov 2013 #74
Looks like you've got a host of Hugh Aynesworth wannabees in this thread Sir-K&R, NGU bobthedrummer Nov 2013 #44
It's like watching a flock take off and spin around... Octafish Nov 2013 #83
So much more eloquent than what I was going to say! SaveAmerica Nov 2013 #90
"Do you have a book about Kennedy that you recommend?" red dog 1 Nov 2013 #119
Here are a few good reads... Octafish Nov 2013 #133
a very good post in the best thread yet reddread Nov 2013 #140
K&R! Omaha Steve Nov 2013 #45
LBJ got Earl Warren to go along... Octafish Nov 2013 #84
Bill Hicks on JFK Initech Nov 2013 #54
Jim Hicks used comedy to spell out Truth. Octafish Nov 2013 #85
Thank you, Octafish, for your work on the assassination. A-Schwarzenegger Nov 2013 #60
Same here... PCIntern Nov 2013 #61
'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE Octafish Nov 2013 #88
We forget that the first "conspiracy theorist" was Oswald himself. A-Schwarzenegger Nov 2013 #111
Excellent post. Major Hogwash Nov 2013 #67
Ford pardoned Nixon Octafish Nov 2013 #89
Yes, that is true. Major Hogwash Nov 2013 #93
You should have seen Piers Morgan get the vapors. Manifestor_of_Light Nov 2013 #70
Thanks for the heads-up! Piers is something to behold. Octafish Nov 2013 #92
I finally got around to reading Lane's Rush to Judgment in the mid-70s. I usually save books but struggle4progress Nov 2013 #75
Mark Lane hasn't changed his mind since then. Octafish Nov 2013 #99
Seems after forty years, Lane's still working to get more than two pebbles in a straight line struggle4progress Nov 2013 #115
The ''Secret Service'' men on the Grassy Knoll Octafish Nov 2013 #128
A spoon of barley tossed into a barrel of water makes mighty thin gruel. Here's the testimony struggle4progress Nov 2013 #129
It's no joke. It's what TWO DALLAS POLICE OFFICERS REPORTED. Octafish Dec 2013 #182
K&R burrowowl Nov 2013 #76
I noticed a couple o' typos on re-reading in the cold light of a new day... Octafish Nov 2013 #94
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #86
I've still got a dog-eared copy of Rush to Judgment on my bookshelf. robertpaulsen Nov 2013 #87
You know Edwin Black? He wrote about the Chicago Plot... Octafish Nov 2013 #107
I love IBM and the Holocaust! robertpaulsen Nov 2013 #117
Joseph Adams Milteer saw that it keep going in Dallas 50 years ago... Octafish Dec 2013 #169
One more thing on the subject of Chicago robertpaulsen Nov 2013 #121
The Chicago Plot involved a tipster named ''Lee.'' And the DIA harrassed Edwin Black. Octafish Nov 2013 #132
Well, the DIA angle is a twist I wasn't aware of! robertpaulsen Nov 2013 #138
James Carroll wrote ''House of War''... Octafish Nov 2013 #139
I think you're right about the cabal. robertpaulsen Nov 2013 #143
I think YOU're right about the cabal... Octafish Dec 2013 #178
Octafish, did you SEE this? Veciana admits Bishop was Phillips! robertpaulsen Dec 2013 #191
And then the guy passed away. Octafish Dec 2013 #192
Apparently, Veciana's death was misreported, according to Vince Palamara. robertpaulsen Dec 2013 #193
I heard Lane speak many years ago. It was him Jackpine Radical Nov 2013 #102
'Rush to Judgment' woke me up... Octafish Nov 2013 #126
Thank you Octafish i miss america Nov 2013 #113
Oliver Stone: JFK conspiracy deniers are in denial Octafish Nov 2013 #122
K&R...Thanks for posting. red dog 1 Nov 2013 #118
Mr. Lane credited himself on that one! Said it should've been called 'The Mark Lane Bill.' LOL! Octafish Nov 2013 #120
"The House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA).. red dog 1 Nov 2013 #123
Thanks! Octafish Nov 2013 #124
It was, indeed, Oliver Stone's "JFK" that got Congress to pass the "JFK Act" red dog 1 Nov 2013 #125
Deep gratitude for your work on this, Mr. Octafish Holly_Hobby Nov 2013 #130
That's Acquila Clemons, who said it Oswald did not shoot Officer Tippit Octafish Nov 2013 #135
K & R !!! WillyT Nov 2013 #131
For the Record... Octafish Nov 2013 #136
A Death Bed Declaration? CIA Tied to JFK Assassination Judi Lynn Dec 2013 #166
Well that's new information. what a great thread Ichingcarpenter Dec 2013 #167
Veciana was set to talk to Gaeton Fonzi re David Atlee Phillips... Octafish Dec 2013 #168
Citizen Lane by NCIS' Pauley Perrette MinM Dec 2013 #170
Thank you, MinM. Here's FBI Agent Donald A. Adams on Joseph Adams Milteer... Octafish Dec 2013 #187
Mr. Lane, I will never forget upi402 Dec 2013 #183
Seems the Novo Brothers helped assassinate Letelier and Moffit in 1976... Octafish Dec 2013 #188
K&R (nt). Kurovski Dec 2013 #185
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