General Discussion

joshcryer

(62,536 posts)

95. Not without the young and healthy paying into it.

Mon Nov 25, 2013, 10:06 AM

Nov 2013

Thankfully we got the mandate there to persuade them!

Just like in 2017 when Green Mountain Care becomes mandated (unless you already have a primary insurer and want to keep them) a lot of people who aren't paying, young and healthy with above poverty income, will have to keep paying! And the ones that don't? Well, they go to jail for tax fraud, unfortunately.

Pretty neat how it works, huh?

Sarcasm aside they expect the uninsured rate to drop from 7% to 4% in 2014 (pp13) much of that, of course, due to the expansion of Medicaid. It will be down to 2% uninsured by 2017 when everyone gets covered (Ibid).

But really the competitive nature of the markets is the problem, the GMC isn't going to magically cover everyone overnight, because people need to enroll in it and be accounted for and their health situation accounted for so that they can determine rates and whatnot. They have been on that trajectory for awhile now.

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Uh... we should be thanking *Bernie Sanders and Ron Wyden* for single payer in America. [View all] MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 OP

Ah yes, Bernie--Hillary Clinton provided financial support to his campaign. MADem Nov 2013 #1

Obamacare makes single payer illegal MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #2

No, it doesn't. Pathetic attempt at spin, there, Manny. MADem Nov 2013 #20

False. The whole premise of this thread is a lie. scheming daemons Nov 2013 #25

If the whole premise of this thread is PROVEN to be a lie... nikto Nov 2013 #39

I think I did an OK job debunking it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #61

If the OP is a lie, then please expound. Simply calling the OP a liar isnt very politically liberal rhett o rick Nov 2013 #193

Your OP is a lie, there was no bill that passed. joshcryer Nov 2013 #50

Can't we just thank all of them? JaneyVee Nov 2013 #131

No. One size fits all! randome Nov 2013 #142

Noooooooooooo!!!!! Because....unnnnh....unnnnh ..... Obama BAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!! MADem Nov 2013 #191

Groovy. If Vermont is denied we can look forward to... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #4

Yeah....like the "decades of litigation" when MA decided to embrace equality? MADem Nov 2013 #14

It was decades of federal and state litigation prior to any equality given to anyone anywhere. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #18

I'm talking about the decades of litigation that did not happen AFTER the law was passed. MADem Nov 2013 #28

Damn, you're good. randome Nov 2013 #82

I am fine with valid critiques. MADem Nov 2013 #181

Manny's point is that the ACA, as drafted by Obama's team, forbid states from enacting Single Payer. Maedhros Nov 2013 #200

That is not a "point." It's bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #221

He didn't say that Obama wasn't onboard... Maedhros Nov 2013 #228

Which is bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #236

My definition of "passive" is paying lip service to Single Payer Maedhros Nov 2013 #246

Your definition of "passive" is apparently colored by bias. MADem Nov 2013 #249

+1! sheshe2 Nov 2013 #197

Heh. Vermont won't implement it until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #60

What would prevent Vermont from implementing it, no matter who wins? merrily Nov 2013 #100

Tax hike. joshcryer Nov 2013 #101

Are you assuming that Republicans could and would repeal Obamacare, if they got a simple majority? merrily Nov 2013 #103

No. joshcryer Nov 2013 #125

Yes, but ACA is already a law. You said it had something to do with Democrats winning next time. merrily Nov 2013 #127

If the Democrats win they can change the date. joshcryer Nov 2013 #130

"Can" doesn't mean they will. merrily Nov 2013 #133

Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #136

Well, this was your original statement. merrily Nov 2013 #140

"can" joshcryer Nov 2013 #143

Vermont can = Vermont will be able to. No guaranty of that. merrily Nov 2013 #154

Congress can / will enable Vermont to do. joshcryer Nov 2013 #155

IOW, a win by Democrats does not = Vermont being able to move up the date. merrily Nov 2013 #161

Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #163

This is a good point, the 2017 waiver deadline is folly. joshcryer Nov 2013 #59

Heh, heh! nt MADem Nov 2013 #65

The Defense of Marriage Act did not prohibit same sex marriage. merrily Nov 2013 #99

States' Rights--like I said, it's a two-edged sword. MADem Nov 2013 #183

Thank you for this. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #3

You're welcome MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #5

I have your back. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #6

Thanks because I wasn't aware of this. bananas Nov 2013 #40

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #41

The OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #52

Thank You Bernie Sanders For Pushing The Envelope cantbeserious Nov 2013 #7

No, we should be thanking "VT Lawmakers"...if you want to get technical. MADem Nov 2013 #8

VT still won't get Single Payer until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #58

actually, there are no for profit health insurers operating in Vermont cali Nov 2013 #63

Oh No! bvar22 Nov 2013 #134

Oh my lord. joshcryer Nov 2013 #151

It's not for lack of trying. Obama supported the 2014 waiver as well. MADem Nov 2013 #64

But Obama! Third Way! OMG OMG joshcryer Nov 2013 #71

+1,000 !!!! MADem Nov 2013 #73

You should see my post #76. joshcryer Nov 2013 #77

Game! Set! Match! MADem Nov 2013 #184

You guys are OWNING this thread. Manny should have to pay you and josh rent Number23 Nov 2013 #207

Agreed... SidDithers Nov 2013 #212

It brought all the Dems to the yard, I guess! nt MADem Nov 2013 #223

Thank you, my dear! MADem Nov 2013 #220

Well, his dwindling fan club gave it 128 recs, far from the glory days Number23 Nov 2013 #226

I hope it's part of his permanent record, such as it is. MADem Nov 2013 #237

+1 JoePhilly Nov 2013 #119

To some folks around here...the man doesn't deserve credit for ANYTHING he has accomplished VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #178

^THIS Marrah_G Nov 2013 #91

Vermont was always free to go single payer before Obamacare. merrily Nov 2013 #166

Does Vermont need the help from Obamacares? I'd say yes.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #179

What do you mean, "free to go?" They DID go--BEFORE Obamacare. MADem Nov 2013 #185

I thank Sanders, AND Obama, AND the Vermont jazzimov Nov 2013 #9

Why thank Obama. Single payer is illegal unless a waiver is granted. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #12

and you blame Obama for that....right yeah....cause everything is his fault I am sure! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #180

Keep making stuff up! Do your homework. MADem Nov 2013 #186

there you go again Manny - spreading the ugly stench of reality Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #10

there's a Russian poem for this MisterP Nov 2013 #33

Spreading the ugly stench of lies. ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2013 #167

LMFAO, Manny Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #11

No he does not. Sanders gets credit. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #13

Is the provision in the Obamacare bill? Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #15

Did Obama create that provision? No he did not. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #16

You don't even know how legislation works Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #19

Hahaha!!! Then why is it called ObamaCare... Near the entire thing originated Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #23

The media coined it Obamacare and that's all she wrote Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #26

I wonder... nikto Nov 2013 #42

No, the reason it was called Obamacare was that Obama campaigned on it and the WH did a lot of merrily Nov 2013 #106

The Executive does initiate some legislation, but only Congress can pass it. merrily Nov 2013 #105

The White House often initiates legislation. Yes, Congress has to pass it (or not), but merrily Nov 2013 #110

Sometimes, a politician whose vote is needed to pass legislation, holds up their vote sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #171

Presidents don't "create" provisions in laws. pnwmom Nov 2013 #22

You must think I and other DUers are stupid. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #27

You must think we are, if you want us to buy that steaming pile you are shopping. MADem Nov 2013 #31

But they do in Luminous - Manny World! MADem Nov 2013 #32

Of course they do. They cannot do it alone. But they initiate legislation all the time. merrily Nov 2013 #107

It doesn't become operative until 535 people have their way with it, and POTUS signs it, though. MADem Nov 2013 #188

Who signed the bill into law? Santa? MADem Nov 2013 #29

That's what I kept telling people when Obama signed woo me with science Nov 2013 #34

We're talking about the ACA here. You know, the bill that Obama signed into law, with a provision MADem Nov 2013 #35

Nope, I'm commenting on your broad argument here about what "Presidents" do, woo me with science Nov 2013 #48

Comment all you'd like--it's obvious you have no game WRT the subject matter, so you are engaging in MADem Nov 2013 #51

That left a mark. 99Forever Nov 2013 #74

Yes, the skid mark of "No Argument Relative to the Topic." MADem Nov 2013 #238

Ahh... the petulent child response. 99Forever Nov 2013 #240

If you're going to try to be didactic, at least use spell check. MADem Nov 2013 #241

Oh noes! 99Forever Nov 2013 #248

Ha--talk about a "petulant child response!" MADem Nov 2013 #250

Keep it up. 99Forever Nov 2013 #257

Look in the mirror, pal. nt MADem Nov 2013 #258

Bwahahahahahahah.... 99Forever Nov 2013 #259

You're the one with the shovel. nt MADem Nov 2013 #260

"I know you are, but what am I?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #261

Let's see, who lit off this petulant and childish exchange? MADem Nov 2013 #262

Who's "we?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #265

Kiss your mama with that mouth, pal? nt MADem Nov 2013 #266

MADem was likely refering to other posters grounded in reality reading this thread like me n/t Bodhi BloodWave Nov 2013 #267

Sanders didn't add it. Ron Wyden did. Sanders helped. joshcryer Nov 2013 #81

+1000 Phlem Nov 2013 #195

+1 This thread is an excellent example of what we face in terms of the woo me with science Nov 2013 #214

I loves my friend woo! Phlem Nov 2013 #217

The OP is what was disruptive because it was a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #230

Riiiiight Phlem Nov 2013 #245

I've been extremely civil. joshcryer Nov 2013 #231

So glad your here. Phlem Nov 2013 #244

That was tired. Even for you. Number23 Nov 2013 #208

While this took an enormous amount of energy to write. Phlem Nov 2013 #218

God, you are so well named. A sentiment that seems to get posted to you daily. Number23 Nov 2013 #225

3,2,1 Phlem Nov 2013 #227

Oh, for those - he had no choice, his hands were tied. Get with the program. djean111 Nov 2013 #87

Some one else did the work to make this happen... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #43

Oh....so if he doesn't get any credit, he can't get any blame either! MADem Nov 2013 #45

Remind me again when Obama, in office, advocated for single payer. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #46

Could have? They did. And they did it a long while ago. Two and a half years ago, actually. MADem Nov 2013 #47

Do you know anything about administrative law? joshcryer Nov 2013 #89

I thought Warren left because Obama nominated someone else? merrily Nov 2013 #109

Nope, read that link I posted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #112

No one told me. That is my recollection, which is supported by her wiki. merrily Nov 2013 #115

I addressed that stuff in my link. joshcryer Nov 2013 #120

Your post is not the final word. Lots of sources and my own recollection are to contrary. merrily Nov 2013 #126

She did not want the job. joshcryer Nov 2013 #128

As I said, I try to stay away from mind reading, esp. with people I've never spoken with. merrily Nov 2013 #129

History tells us what she wanted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #132

It may, or it may tell us what her second, third or fourth choice was. merrily Nov 2013 #135

I don't believe her first choice is to be head of a neutered CFPB. joshcryer Nov 2013 #139

Continuing the posting game of putting words in my mouth. You're on your own. merrily Nov 2013 #141

Whew. joshcryer Nov 2013 #144

Well, you still haven't replied to Post #116. When did the CBO rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #145

In 1993. joshcryer Nov 2013 #146

Single payer was not on the table then. Billarycare was. merrily Nov 2013 #149

Single Payer has never been on the table. joshcryer Nov 2013 #150

Parsing words. It has been introduced in every Congress since 2003, but has merrily Nov 2013 #158

Right, it wasn't on the table for Billarycare, or Obamacare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #160

Again, that depends on how you define "on the table." It was introduced. merrily Nov 2013 #164

I define it as you with regards to Billarycare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #165

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but it is self-evident that it is much better to MADem Nov 2013 #187

Caving on a provision because he needed the vote of every Senator in the Dem Caucus merrily Nov 2013 #108

Caving on what provision? MADem Nov 2013 #224

No, and it was a shitty dated provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #56

Isn't that better than forbidding states to enact single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #111

The CBO said the numbers didn't work. joshcryer Nov 2013 #113

When did the CBO ever rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #116

Actually, it seems the CBO said a lot of things about single payer in the 1990s, but little lately. merrily Nov 2013 #159

That's... what I said. joshcryer Nov 2013 #162

No, it isn't. But this is boring. So, I'll leave it at that. merrily Nov 2013 #169

Post #146... joshcryer Nov 2013 #170

He supported it two months before VT even passed their SP legislation--back in 2011. MADem Nov 2013 #70

Obviously, he supported the waiver or Vermont would not have it. merrily Nov 2013 #117

He supported it BEFORE VT passed their law--almost three years ago. MADem Nov 2013 #189

Sanders was instrumental in making the waiver deadline 2017? joshcryer Nov 2013 #55

Of course not. Sanders has no power to pass legislation on his own. merrily Nov 2013 #118

The poster said he gets credit for the waiver. joshcryer Nov 2013 #124

As I stated, that may have been a compromise on which he condititioned his ACA vote. merrily Nov 2013 #137

He now wants it moved to 2014. joshcryer Nov 2013 #138

So I found why Sanders agreed to 2017: joshcryer Nov 2013 #84

"the most insane objections" from the CBO. Gee, I wonder why. merrily Nov 2013 #121

He still voted for it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #123

I take him at his word. As stated twice before, the day may have been a compromise. merrily Nov 2013 #147

Erm, he pretty much laid it out. joshcryer Nov 2013 #153

He said the CBO's reasons were the most insane. merrily Nov 2013 #156

ie, acceptably insane. joshcryer Nov 2013 #157

Yeah....Obama gets blamed because he didn't sign a law that prohibited single-payer. It's rich. MADem Nov 2013 #17

It's pathetic Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #24

"Everyone, grab a torch or a pitchfork!!!" bearssoapbox Nov 2013 #37

Mmmmmm mmmmmm good! MADem Nov 2013 #38

Yup, the ACA always had a single payer provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #57

Yes it's because someone did another thread treestar Nov 2013 #68

What do all of the "Half Truth Posts" have in common? MADem Nov 2013 #69

Of course there was a barrier prior to Obamacare: pnwmom Nov 2013 #21

"The ACA was a work in progress till the day before it was passed." MADem Nov 2013 #30

Single payer has nothing to do with ACA. Vermont could have passed single payer Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #44

Well, they DID pass it--back in 2011. Before the Supreme Court ruled on it, too. MADem Nov 2013 #49

Vermont couldn't have paid for single payer before the ACA. pnwmom Nov 2013 #192

This point is highly overlooked in this thread. joshcryer Nov 2013 #233

Right. The ACA was a critical part of the package that made it possible.n/t pnwmom Nov 2013 #235

States needed an ERISA waiver, which was being pushed by Kucinich. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #152

Bernie is the best. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #36

He took care of his state, as a good senator does. MADem Nov 2013 #53

The OP is an outright lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #54

First off, you're rude. Didn't your parents teach you manners? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #66

Ron Wyden was the author of 1332. Your OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #76

Ok, let's take my OP one step at a time - if you dare MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #80

It's a weasel statement more than anything. joshcryer Nov 2013 #83

Thanks for the facts and links. randome Nov 2013 #85

Gay marriage, marijuana, and single payer. joshcryer Nov 2013 #86

So we agree that it's *true*. But you say it's *weaselly* because... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #88

The only difference is Green Mountain Care will have to compete. joshcryer Nov 2013 #90

So 100% of Vermonters will have health insurance in 2014? That's fantastic! MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #92

Not without the young and healthy paying into it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #95

So we agree: Vermont won't have universal coverage until 2017, and only MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #96

If they had a waiver today... joshcryer Nov 2013 #97

"much of that, of course, due to the expansion of Medicaid" MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #202

The national average is 17%, VT is 7%. joshcryer Nov 2013 #211

So how is that different than the change that would have occured in another 7% state? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #216

Um, the others don't have a GMC single insurer? joshcryer Nov 2013 #219

It's pretty clear that the individual who started this MADem Nov 2013 #239

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed watching you and MADem chop this OP to ribbons Number23 Nov 2013 #206

Thanks. I think it's sad. joshcryer Nov 2013 #234

What's rude about the truth? And speaking of rude, isn't it rude to make up stories and pass them MADem Nov 2013 #190

Mr. Cryer has pointed out zero untruths MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #199

Your OP edit history proves otherwise. joshcryer Nov 2013 #213

And which edit would that be? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #215

The one that included the actual author of the legislation? joshcryer Nov 2013 #232

Please refer to the article that I linked to at that time,... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #243

I already have. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself, as they used to say back in MADem Nov 2013 #222

Actually, thanks for single payer in Vermont should go even more to Shumlin cali Nov 2013 #62

+1 L0oniX Nov 2013 #104

And we should thank Putin for Syria deal, Hassan Rouhani for the Iran deal, ... pampango Nov 2013 #67

I hope that what the great state of Vermont is doing Autumn Nov 2013 #72

Amen. (Best post on the thread, IMO!) merrily Nov 2013 #168

Quite. Thank you Senator Snaders. Laelth Nov 2013 #75

It seems obvious that the health insurance industry would do everything they could to stop SP Fumesucker Nov 2013 #93

Thank you. That's what my gut tells me, in any event. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #94

Keep trying, Manny... SidDithers Nov 2013 #78

And another manufactured outrage widget hits the shop room floor ... THUD. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #79

This one, however, had to be run through the outrage press 7 times before it was done... SidDithers Nov 2013 #102

Holy shit look at the edits on this one. joshcryer Nov 2013 #98

So a thread that is false gets 80+ recs scheming daemons Nov 2013 #114

They don't care. Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #177

.... Phlem Nov 2013 #196

and? Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #204

I think you've got it handled for me. Phlem Nov 2013 #205

Maybe you dont belong in a "politically liberal" DU. Just sayin. You dont seem happy here. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #194

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #209

How dare you not include Rahm Emanuel? JVS Nov 2013 #122

Single Payer movement in the era of Obamacare ProSense Nov 2013 #148

This. a2liberal Nov 2013 #172

"The revisionist history that the cheerleaders ate trying to sell its amusing." ProSense Nov 2013 #182

Thank you, Bernie and Ron! nt valerief Nov 2013 #173

Bottom line, Vermont will have single payer and that is a great thing for Vermont and America. merrily Nov 2013 #174

Okay, Sens. Sanders. Warren and Wyden are all Gods! justhanginon Nov 2013 #175

Clearly, "credit" is a finite resource which must be rationed. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #176

I know and it's always directed at Saint Obama! Phlem Nov 2013 #198

Hardly a Saint, but certainly on the demon JoePhilly Nov 2013 #201

Not at all. Phlem Nov 2013 #203

careful Skittles Nov 2013 #229

It's OK, I've had the wrath before. My doctor prescribed some ointment. Phlem Nov 2013 #247

Repukes should be applauding this hughee99 Nov 2013 #210

LOL! ProSense Nov 2013 #242

Bernie, who I trust immensely more than you, said the Dem senate, and i quote; dionysus Nov 2013 #251

Which in no way contradicts what I wrote. MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #252

not at all. but it does dispense of the commonly overused meme that we'd have single payer or a dionysus Nov 2013 #253

Well it's certainly true that they didn't try MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #254

it's a sad situation but it wasn't hard to count up to 60 Manny. dionysus Nov 2013 #255

Read up on LBJ and the Civil Rights Act MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #256

+1,000 -- I love how Bernie's view mirrors mine! MADem Nov 2013 #263

and he's right, because he's a very smart man. he realizes their aren't 50 of him in the senate. dionysus Nov 2013 #264