General Discussion

merrily

(45,251 posts)

164. Again, that depends on how you define "on the table." It was introduced.

Mon Nov 25, 2013, 01:18 PM

Nov 2013

The point was not what I expect of the CBO. The point is that the context in which the CBO rates something is relevant, as is the date.

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Uh... we should be thanking *Bernie Sanders and Ron Wyden* for single payer in America. [View all] MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 OP

Ah yes, Bernie--Hillary Clinton provided financial support to his campaign. MADem Nov 2013 #1

Obamacare makes single payer illegal MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #2

No, it doesn't. Pathetic attempt at spin, there, Manny. MADem Nov 2013 #20

False. The whole premise of this thread is a lie. scheming daemons Nov 2013 #25

If the whole premise of this thread is PROVEN to be a lie... nikto Nov 2013 #39

I think I did an OK job debunking it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #61

If the OP is a lie, then please expound. Simply calling the OP a liar isnt very politically liberal rhett o rick Nov 2013 #193

Your OP is a lie, there was no bill that passed. joshcryer Nov 2013 #50

Can't we just thank all of them? JaneyVee Nov 2013 #131

No. One size fits all! randome Nov 2013 #142

Noooooooooooo!!!!! Because....unnnnh....unnnnh ..... Obama BAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!! MADem Nov 2013 #191

Groovy. If Vermont is denied we can look forward to... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #4

Yeah....like the "decades of litigation" when MA decided to embrace equality? MADem Nov 2013 #14

It was decades of federal and state litigation prior to any equality given to anyone anywhere. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #18

I'm talking about the decades of litigation that did not happen AFTER the law was passed. MADem Nov 2013 #28

Damn, you're good. randome Nov 2013 #82

I am fine with valid critiques. MADem Nov 2013 #181

Manny's point is that the ACA, as drafted by Obama's team, forbid states from enacting Single Payer. Maedhros Nov 2013 #200

That is not a "point." It's bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #221

He didn't say that Obama wasn't onboard... Maedhros Nov 2013 #228

Which is bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #236

My definition of "passive" is paying lip service to Single Payer Maedhros Nov 2013 #246

Your definition of "passive" is apparently colored by bias. MADem Nov 2013 #249

+1! sheshe2 Nov 2013 #197

Heh. Vermont won't implement it until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #60

What would prevent Vermont from implementing it, no matter who wins? merrily Nov 2013 #100

Tax hike. joshcryer Nov 2013 #101

Are you assuming that Republicans could and would repeal Obamacare, if they got a simple majority? merrily Nov 2013 #103

No. joshcryer Nov 2013 #125

Yes, but ACA is already a law. You said it had something to do with Democrats winning next time. merrily Nov 2013 #127

If the Democrats win they can change the date. joshcryer Nov 2013 #130

"Can" doesn't mean they will. merrily Nov 2013 #133

Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #136

Well, this was your original statement. merrily Nov 2013 #140

"can" joshcryer Nov 2013 #143

Vermont can = Vermont will be able to. No guaranty of that. merrily Nov 2013 #154

Congress can / will enable Vermont to do. joshcryer Nov 2013 #155

IOW, a win by Democrats does not = Vermont being able to move up the date. merrily Nov 2013 #161

Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #163

This is a good point, the 2017 waiver deadline is folly. joshcryer Nov 2013 #59

Heh, heh! nt MADem Nov 2013 #65

The Defense of Marriage Act did not prohibit same sex marriage. merrily Nov 2013 #99

States' Rights--like I said, it's a two-edged sword. MADem Nov 2013 #183

Thank you for this. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #3

You're welcome MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #5

I have your back. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #6

Thanks because I wasn't aware of this. bananas Nov 2013 #40

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #41

The OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #52

Thank You Bernie Sanders For Pushing The Envelope cantbeserious Nov 2013 #7

No, we should be thanking "VT Lawmakers"...if you want to get technical. MADem Nov 2013 #8

VT still won't get Single Payer until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #58

actually, there are no for profit health insurers operating in Vermont cali Nov 2013 #63

Oh No! bvar22 Nov 2013 #134

Oh my lord. joshcryer Nov 2013 #151

It's not for lack of trying. Obama supported the 2014 waiver as well. MADem Nov 2013 #64

But Obama! Third Way! OMG OMG joshcryer Nov 2013 #71

+1,000 !!!! MADem Nov 2013 #73

You should see my post #76. joshcryer Nov 2013 #77

Game! Set! Match! MADem Nov 2013 #184

You guys are OWNING this thread. Manny should have to pay you and josh rent Number23 Nov 2013 #207

Agreed... SidDithers Nov 2013 #212

It brought all the Dems to the yard, I guess! nt MADem Nov 2013 #223

Thank you, my dear! MADem Nov 2013 #220

Well, his dwindling fan club gave it 128 recs, far from the glory days Number23 Nov 2013 #226

I hope it's part of his permanent record, such as it is. MADem Nov 2013 #237

+1 JoePhilly Nov 2013 #119

To some folks around here...the man doesn't deserve credit for ANYTHING he has accomplished VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #178

^THIS Marrah_G Nov 2013 #91

Vermont was always free to go single payer before Obamacare. merrily Nov 2013 #166

Does Vermont need the help from Obamacares? I'd say yes.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #179

What do you mean, "free to go?" They DID go--BEFORE Obamacare. MADem Nov 2013 #185

I thank Sanders, AND Obama, AND the Vermont jazzimov Nov 2013 #9

Why thank Obama. Single payer is illegal unless a waiver is granted. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #12

and you blame Obama for that....right yeah....cause everything is his fault I am sure! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #180

Keep making stuff up! Do your homework. MADem Nov 2013 #186

there you go again Manny - spreading the ugly stench of reality Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #10

there's a Russian poem for this MisterP Nov 2013 #33

Spreading the ugly stench of lies. ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2013 #167

LMFAO, Manny Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #11

No he does not. Sanders gets credit. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #13

Is the provision in the Obamacare bill? Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #15

Did Obama create that provision? No he did not. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #16

You don't even know how legislation works Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #19

Hahaha!!! Then why is it called ObamaCare... Near the entire thing originated Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #23

The media coined it Obamacare and that's all she wrote Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #26

I wonder... nikto Nov 2013 #42

No, the reason it was called Obamacare was that Obama campaigned on it and the WH did a lot of merrily Nov 2013 #106

The Executive does initiate some legislation, but only Congress can pass it. merrily Nov 2013 #105

The White House often initiates legislation. Yes, Congress has to pass it (or not), but merrily Nov 2013 #110

Sometimes, a politician whose vote is needed to pass legislation, holds up their vote sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #171

Presidents don't "create" provisions in laws. pnwmom Nov 2013 #22

You must think I and other DUers are stupid. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #27

You must think we are, if you want us to buy that steaming pile you are shopping. MADem Nov 2013 #31

But they do in Luminous - Manny World! MADem Nov 2013 #32

Of course they do. They cannot do it alone. But they initiate legislation all the time. merrily Nov 2013 #107

It doesn't become operative until 535 people have their way with it, and POTUS signs it, though. MADem Nov 2013 #188

Who signed the bill into law? Santa? MADem Nov 2013 #29

That's what I kept telling people when Obama signed woo me with science Nov 2013 #34

We're talking about the ACA here. You know, the bill that Obama signed into law, with a provision MADem Nov 2013 #35

Nope, I'm commenting on your broad argument here about what "Presidents" do, woo me with science Nov 2013 #48

Comment all you'd like--it's obvious you have no game WRT the subject matter, so you are engaging in MADem Nov 2013 #51

That left a mark. 99Forever Nov 2013 #74

Yes, the skid mark of "No Argument Relative to the Topic." MADem Nov 2013 #238

Ahh... the petulent child response. 99Forever Nov 2013 #240

If you're going to try to be didactic, at least use spell check. MADem Nov 2013 #241

Oh noes! 99Forever Nov 2013 #248

Ha--talk about a "petulant child response!" MADem Nov 2013 #250

Keep it up. 99Forever Nov 2013 #257

Look in the mirror, pal. nt MADem Nov 2013 #258

Bwahahahahahahah.... 99Forever Nov 2013 #259

You're the one with the shovel. nt MADem Nov 2013 #260

"I know you are, but what am I?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #261

Let's see, who lit off this petulant and childish exchange? MADem Nov 2013 #262

Who's "we?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #265

Kiss your mama with that mouth, pal? nt MADem Nov 2013 #266

MADem was likely refering to other posters grounded in reality reading this thread like me n/t Bodhi BloodWave Nov 2013 #267

Sanders didn't add it. Ron Wyden did. Sanders helped. joshcryer Nov 2013 #81

+1000 Phlem Nov 2013 #195

+1 This thread is an excellent example of what we face in terms of the woo me with science Nov 2013 #214

I loves my friend woo! Phlem Nov 2013 #217

The OP is what was disruptive because it was a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #230

Riiiiight Phlem Nov 2013 #245

I've been extremely civil. joshcryer Nov 2013 #231

So glad your here. Phlem Nov 2013 #244

That was tired. Even for you. Number23 Nov 2013 #208

While this took an enormous amount of energy to write. Phlem Nov 2013 #218

God, you are so well named. A sentiment that seems to get posted to you daily. Number23 Nov 2013 #225

3,2,1 Phlem Nov 2013 #227

Oh, for those - he had no choice, his hands were tied. Get with the program. djean111 Nov 2013 #87

Some one else did the work to make this happen... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #43

Oh....so if he doesn't get any credit, he can't get any blame either! MADem Nov 2013 #45

Remind me again when Obama, in office, advocated for single payer. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #46

Could have? They did. And they did it a long while ago. Two and a half years ago, actually. MADem Nov 2013 #47

Do you know anything about administrative law? joshcryer Nov 2013 #89

I thought Warren left because Obama nominated someone else? merrily Nov 2013 #109

Nope, read that link I posted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #112

No one told me. That is my recollection, which is supported by her wiki. merrily Nov 2013 #115

I addressed that stuff in my link. joshcryer Nov 2013 #120

Your post is not the final word. Lots of sources and my own recollection are to contrary. merrily Nov 2013 #126

She did not want the job. joshcryer Nov 2013 #128

As I said, I try to stay away from mind reading, esp. with people I've never spoken with. merrily Nov 2013 #129

History tells us what she wanted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #132

It may, or it may tell us what her second, third or fourth choice was. merrily Nov 2013 #135

I don't believe her first choice is to be head of a neutered CFPB. joshcryer Nov 2013 #139

Continuing the posting game of putting words in my mouth. You're on your own. merrily Nov 2013 #141

Whew. joshcryer Nov 2013 #144

Well, you still haven't replied to Post #116. When did the CBO rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #145

In 1993. joshcryer Nov 2013 #146

Single payer was not on the table then. Billarycare was. merrily Nov 2013 #149

Single Payer has never been on the table. joshcryer Nov 2013 #150

Parsing words. It has been introduced in every Congress since 2003, but has merrily Nov 2013 #158

Right, it wasn't on the table for Billarycare, or Obamacare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #160

Again, that depends on how you define "on the table." It was introduced. merrily Nov 2013 #164

I define it as you with regards to Billarycare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #165

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but it is self-evident that it is much better to MADem Nov 2013 #187

Caving on a provision because he needed the vote of every Senator in the Dem Caucus merrily Nov 2013 #108

Caving on what provision? MADem Nov 2013 #224

No, and it was a shitty dated provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #56

Isn't that better than forbidding states to enact single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #111

The CBO said the numbers didn't work. joshcryer Nov 2013 #113

When did the CBO ever rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #116

Actually, it seems the CBO said a lot of things about single payer in the 1990s, but little lately. merrily Nov 2013 #159

That's... what I said. joshcryer Nov 2013 #162

No, it isn't. But this is boring. So, I'll leave it at that. merrily Nov 2013 #169

Post #146... joshcryer Nov 2013 #170

He supported it two months before VT even passed their SP legislation--back in 2011. MADem Nov 2013 #70

Obviously, he supported the waiver or Vermont would not have it. merrily Nov 2013 #117

He supported it BEFORE VT passed their law--almost three years ago. MADem Nov 2013 #189

Sanders was instrumental in making the waiver deadline 2017? joshcryer Nov 2013 #55

Of course not. Sanders has no power to pass legislation on his own. merrily Nov 2013 #118

The poster said he gets credit for the waiver. joshcryer Nov 2013 #124

As I stated, that may have been a compromise on which he condititioned his ACA vote. merrily Nov 2013 #137

He now wants it moved to 2014. joshcryer Nov 2013 #138

So I found why Sanders agreed to 2017: joshcryer Nov 2013 #84

"the most insane objections" from the CBO. Gee, I wonder why. merrily Nov 2013 #121

He still voted for it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #123

I take him at his word. As stated twice before, the day may have been a compromise. merrily Nov 2013 #147

Erm, he pretty much laid it out. joshcryer Nov 2013 #153

He said the CBO's reasons were the most insane. merrily Nov 2013 #156

ie, acceptably insane. joshcryer Nov 2013 #157

Yeah....Obama gets blamed because he didn't sign a law that prohibited single-payer. It's rich. MADem Nov 2013 #17

It's pathetic Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #24

"Everyone, grab a torch or a pitchfork!!!" bearssoapbox Nov 2013 #37

Mmmmmm mmmmmm good! MADem Nov 2013 #38

Yup, the ACA always had a single payer provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #57

Yes it's because someone did another thread treestar Nov 2013 #68

What do all of the "Half Truth Posts" have in common? MADem Nov 2013 #69

Of course there was a barrier prior to Obamacare: pnwmom Nov 2013 #21

"The ACA was a work in progress till the day before it was passed." MADem Nov 2013 #30

Single payer has nothing to do with ACA. Vermont could have passed single payer Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #44

Well, they DID pass it--back in 2011. Before the Supreme Court ruled on it, too. MADem Nov 2013 #49

Vermont couldn't have paid for single payer before the ACA. pnwmom Nov 2013 #192

This point is highly overlooked in this thread. joshcryer Nov 2013 #233

Right. The ACA was a critical part of the package that made it possible.n/t pnwmom Nov 2013 #235

States needed an ERISA waiver, which was being pushed by Kucinich. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #152

Bernie is the best. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #36

He took care of his state, as a good senator does. MADem Nov 2013 #53

The OP is an outright lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #54

First off, you're rude. Didn't your parents teach you manners? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #66

Ron Wyden was the author of 1332. Your OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #76

Ok, let's take my OP one step at a time - if you dare MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #80

It's a weasel statement more than anything. joshcryer Nov 2013 #83

Thanks for the facts and links. randome Nov 2013 #85

Gay marriage, marijuana, and single payer. joshcryer Nov 2013 #86

So we agree that it's *true*. But you say it's *weaselly* because... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #88

The only difference is Green Mountain Care will have to compete. joshcryer Nov 2013 #90

So 100% of Vermonters will have health insurance in 2014? That's fantastic! MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #92

Not without the young and healthy paying into it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #95

So we agree: Vermont won't have universal coverage until 2017, and only MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #96

If they had a waiver today... joshcryer Nov 2013 #97

"much of that, of course, due to the expansion of Medicaid" MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #202

The national average is 17%, VT is 7%. joshcryer Nov 2013 #211

So how is that different than the change that would have occured in another 7% state? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #216

Um, the others don't have a GMC single insurer? joshcryer Nov 2013 #219

It's pretty clear that the individual who started this MADem Nov 2013 #239

I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed watching you and MADem chop this OP to ribbons Number23 Nov 2013 #206

Thanks. I think it's sad. joshcryer Nov 2013 #234

What's rude about the truth? And speaking of rude, isn't it rude to make up stories and pass them MADem Nov 2013 #190

Mr. Cryer has pointed out zero untruths MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #199

Your OP edit history proves otherwise. joshcryer Nov 2013 #213

And which edit would that be? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #215

The one that included the actual author of the legislation? joshcryer Nov 2013 #232

Please refer to the article that I linked to at that time,... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #243

I already have. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself, as they used to say back in MADem Nov 2013 #222

Actually, thanks for single payer in Vermont should go even more to Shumlin cali Nov 2013 #62

+1 L0oniX Nov 2013 #104

And we should thank Putin for Syria deal, Hassan Rouhani for the Iran deal, ... pampango Nov 2013 #67

I hope that what the great state of Vermont is doing Autumn Nov 2013 #72

Amen. (Best post on the thread, IMO!) merrily Nov 2013 #168

Quite. Thank you Senator Snaders. Laelth Nov 2013 #75

It seems obvious that the health insurance industry would do everything they could to stop SP Fumesucker Nov 2013 #93

Thank you. That's what my gut tells me, in any event. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #94

Keep trying, Manny... SidDithers Nov 2013 #78

And another manufactured outrage widget hits the shop room floor ... THUD. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #79

This one, however, had to be run through the outrage press 7 times before it was done... SidDithers Nov 2013 #102

Holy shit look at the edits on this one. joshcryer Nov 2013 #98

So a thread that is false gets 80+ recs scheming daemons Nov 2013 #114

They don't care. Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #177

.... Phlem Nov 2013 #196

and? Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #204

I think you've got it handled for me. Phlem Nov 2013 #205

Maybe you dont belong in a "politically liberal" DU. Just sayin. You dont seem happy here. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #194

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #209

How dare you not include Rahm Emanuel? JVS Nov 2013 #122

Single Payer movement in the era of Obamacare ProSense Nov 2013 #148

This. a2liberal Nov 2013 #172

"The revisionist history that the cheerleaders ate trying to sell its amusing." ProSense Nov 2013 #182

Thank you, Bernie and Ron! nt valerief Nov 2013 #173

Bottom line, Vermont will have single payer and that is a great thing for Vermont and America. merrily Nov 2013 #174

Okay, Sens. Sanders. Warren and Wyden are all Gods! justhanginon Nov 2013 #175

Clearly, "credit" is a finite resource which must be rationed. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #176

I know and it's always directed at Saint Obama! Phlem Nov 2013 #198

Hardly a Saint, but certainly on the demon JoePhilly Nov 2013 #201

Not at all. Phlem Nov 2013 #203

careful Skittles Nov 2013 #229

It's OK, I've had the wrath before. My doctor prescribed some ointment. Phlem Nov 2013 #247

Repukes should be applauding this hughee99 Nov 2013 #210

LOL! ProSense Nov 2013 #242

Bernie, who I trust immensely more than you, said the Dem senate, and i quote; dionysus Nov 2013 #251

Which in no way contradicts what I wrote. MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #252

not at all. but it does dispense of the commonly overused meme that we'd have single payer or a dionysus Nov 2013 #253

Well it's certainly true that they didn't try MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #254

it's a sad situation but it wasn't hard to count up to 60 Manny. dionysus Nov 2013 #255

Read up on LBJ and the Civil Rights Act MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #256

+1,000 -- I love how Bernie's view mirrors mine! MADem Nov 2013 #263

and he's right, because he's a very smart man. he realizes their aren't 50 of him in the senate. dionysus Nov 2013 #264