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MADem

(135,425 posts)
183. States' Rights--like I said, it's a two-edged sword.
Mon Nov 25, 2013, 02:49 PM
Nov 2013

DOMA effectively prevented large swathes of the population from either exercising a right available to others or receiving benefits that would accrue as a consequence of matrimony; e.g. the military (DADT--marriage was regarded as a "tell" in that equation), federal employees who couldn't avail themselves of benefits available to married people (e.g. health benefits, overseas housing, etc.). It was, in effect, a prohibition.

Now, we know damn well that the federal government can't "prevent" a state from doing whatever the hell they want in this regard (what are they gonna do? Send in the troops to the "Green Mountain State?" Hold doctors hostage unless they demand insurance cards?) but they CAN withhold dollars, and all this waiver does is stop that "dollar foolishness" from going down.

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Ah yes, Bernie--Hillary Clinton provided financial support to his campaign. MADem Nov 2013 #1
Obamacare makes single payer illegal MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #2
No, it doesn't. Pathetic attempt at spin, there, Manny. MADem Nov 2013 #20
False. The whole premise of this thread is a lie. scheming daemons Nov 2013 #25
If the whole premise of this thread is PROVEN to be a lie... nikto Nov 2013 #39
I think I did an OK job debunking it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #61
If the OP is a lie, then please expound. Simply calling the OP a liar isnt very politically liberal rhett o rick Nov 2013 #193
Your OP is a lie, there was no bill that passed. joshcryer Nov 2013 #50
Can't we just thank all of them? JaneyVee Nov 2013 #131
No. One size fits all! randome Nov 2013 #142
Noooooooooooo!!!!! Because....unnnnh....unnnnh ..... Obama BAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!! MADem Nov 2013 #191
Groovy. If Vermont is denied we can look forward to... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #4
Yeah....like the "decades of litigation" when MA decided to embrace equality? MADem Nov 2013 #14
It was decades of federal and state litigation prior to any equality given to anyone anywhere. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #18
I'm talking about the decades of litigation that did not happen AFTER the law was passed. MADem Nov 2013 #28
Damn, you're good. randome Nov 2013 #82
I am fine with valid critiques. MADem Nov 2013 #181
Manny's point is that the ACA, as drafted by Obama's team, forbid states from enacting Single Payer. Maedhros Nov 2013 #200
That is not a "point." It's bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #221
He didn't say that Obama wasn't onboard... Maedhros Nov 2013 #228
Which is bullshit. MADem Nov 2013 #236
My definition of "passive" is paying lip service to Single Payer Maedhros Nov 2013 #246
Your definition of "passive" is apparently colored by bias. MADem Nov 2013 #249
+1! sheshe2 Nov 2013 #197
Heh. Vermont won't implement it until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #60
What would prevent Vermont from implementing it, no matter who wins? merrily Nov 2013 #100
Tax hike. joshcryer Nov 2013 #101
Are you assuming that Republicans could and would repeal Obamacare, if they got a simple majority? merrily Nov 2013 #103
No. joshcryer Nov 2013 #125
Yes, but ACA is already a law. You said it had something to do with Democrats winning next time. merrily Nov 2013 #127
If the Democrats win they can change the date. joshcryer Nov 2013 #130
"Can" doesn't mean they will. merrily Nov 2013 #133
Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #136
Well, this was your original statement. merrily Nov 2013 #140
"can" joshcryer Nov 2013 #143
Vermont can = Vermont will be able to. No guaranty of that. merrily Nov 2013 #154
Congress can / will enable Vermont to do. joshcryer Nov 2013 #155
IOW, a win by Democrats does not = Vermont being able to move up the date. merrily Nov 2013 #161
Duh. joshcryer Nov 2013 #163
This is a good point, the 2017 waiver deadline is folly. joshcryer Nov 2013 #59
Heh, heh! nt MADem Nov 2013 #65
The Defense of Marriage Act did not prohibit same sex marriage. merrily Nov 2013 #99
States' Rights--like I said, it's a two-edged sword. MADem Nov 2013 #183
Thank you for this. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #3
You're welcome MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #5
I have your back. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #6
Thanks because I wasn't aware of this. bananas Nov 2013 #40
Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #41
The OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #52
Thank You Bernie Sanders For Pushing The Envelope cantbeserious Nov 2013 #7
No, we should be thanking "VT Lawmakers"...if you want to get technical. MADem Nov 2013 #8
VT still won't get Single Payer until 2017. joshcryer Nov 2013 #58
actually, there are no for profit health insurers operating in Vermont cali Nov 2013 #63
Oh No! bvar22 Nov 2013 #134
Oh my lord. joshcryer Nov 2013 #151
It's not for lack of trying. Obama supported the 2014 waiver as well. MADem Nov 2013 #64
But Obama! Third Way! OMG OMG joshcryer Nov 2013 #71
+1,000 !!!! MADem Nov 2013 #73
You should see my post #76. joshcryer Nov 2013 #77
Game! Set! Match! MADem Nov 2013 #184
You guys are OWNING this thread. Manny should have to pay you and josh rent Number23 Nov 2013 #207
Agreed... SidDithers Nov 2013 #212
It brought all the Dems to the yard, I guess! nt MADem Nov 2013 #223
Thank you, my dear! MADem Nov 2013 #220
Well, his dwindling fan club gave it 128 recs, far from the glory days Number23 Nov 2013 #226
I hope it's part of his permanent record, such as it is. MADem Nov 2013 #237
+1 JoePhilly Nov 2013 #119
To some folks around here...the man doesn't deserve credit for ANYTHING he has accomplished VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #178
^THIS Marrah_G Nov 2013 #91
Vermont was always free to go single payer before Obamacare. merrily Nov 2013 #166
Does Vermont need the help from Obamacares? I'd say yes.... VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #179
What do you mean, "free to go?" They DID go--BEFORE Obamacare. MADem Nov 2013 #185
I thank Sanders, AND Obama, AND the Vermont jazzimov Nov 2013 #9
Why thank Obama. Single payer is illegal unless a waiver is granted. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #12
and you blame Obama for that....right yeah....cause everything is his fault I am sure! VanillaRhapsody Nov 2013 #180
Keep making stuff up! Do your homework. MADem Nov 2013 #186
there you go again Manny - spreading the ugly stench of reality Douglas Carpenter Nov 2013 #10
there's a Russian poem for this MisterP Nov 2013 #33
Spreading the ugly stench of lies. ConservativeDemocrat Nov 2013 #167
LMFAO, Manny Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #11
No he does not. Sanders gets credit. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #13
Is the provision in the Obamacare bill? Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #15
Did Obama create that provision? No he did not. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #16
You don't even know how legislation works Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #19
Hahaha!!! Then why is it called ObamaCare... Near the entire thing originated Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #23
The media coined it Obamacare and that's all she wrote Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #26
I wonder... nikto Nov 2013 #42
No, the reason it was called Obamacare was that Obama campaigned on it and the WH did a lot of merrily Nov 2013 #106
The Executive does initiate some legislation, but only Congress can pass it. merrily Nov 2013 #105
The White House often initiates legislation. Yes, Congress has to pass it (or not), but merrily Nov 2013 #110
Sometimes, a politician whose vote is needed to pass legislation, holds up their vote sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #171
Presidents don't "create" provisions in laws. pnwmom Nov 2013 #22
You must think I and other DUers are stupid. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #27
You must think we are, if you want us to buy that steaming pile you are shopping. MADem Nov 2013 #31
But they do in Luminous - Manny World! MADem Nov 2013 #32
Of course they do. They cannot do it alone. But they initiate legislation all the time. merrily Nov 2013 #107
It doesn't become operative until 535 people have their way with it, and POTUS signs it, though. MADem Nov 2013 #188
Who signed the bill into law? Santa? MADem Nov 2013 #29
That's what I kept telling people when Obama signed woo me with science Nov 2013 #34
We're talking about the ACA here. You know, the bill that Obama signed into law, with a provision MADem Nov 2013 #35
Nope, I'm commenting on your broad argument here about what "Presidents" do, woo me with science Nov 2013 #48
Comment all you'd like--it's obvious you have no game WRT the subject matter, so you are engaging in MADem Nov 2013 #51
That left a mark. 99Forever Nov 2013 #74
Yes, the skid mark of "No Argument Relative to the Topic." MADem Nov 2013 #238
Ahh... the petulent child response. 99Forever Nov 2013 #240
If you're going to try to be didactic, at least use spell check. MADem Nov 2013 #241
Oh noes! 99Forever Nov 2013 #248
Ha--talk about a "petulant child response!" MADem Nov 2013 #250
Keep it up. 99Forever Nov 2013 #257
Look in the mirror, pal. nt MADem Nov 2013 #258
Bwahahahahahahah.... 99Forever Nov 2013 #259
You're the one with the shovel. nt MADem Nov 2013 #260
"I know you are, but what am I?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #261
Let's see, who lit off this petulant and childish exchange? MADem Nov 2013 #262
Who's "we?" 99Forever Nov 2013 #265
Kiss your mama with that mouth, pal? nt MADem Nov 2013 #266
MADem was likely refering to other posters grounded in reality reading this thread like me n/t Bodhi BloodWave Nov 2013 #267
Sanders didn't add it. Ron Wyden did. Sanders helped. joshcryer Nov 2013 #81
+1000 Phlem Nov 2013 #195
+1 This thread is an excellent example of what we face in terms of the woo me with science Nov 2013 #214
I loves my friend woo! Phlem Nov 2013 #217
The OP is what was disruptive because it was a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #230
Riiiiight Phlem Nov 2013 #245
I've been extremely civil. joshcryer Nov 2013 #231
So glad your here. Phlem Nov 2013 #244
That was tired. Even for you. Number23 Nov 2013 #208
While this took an enormous amount of energy to write. Phlem Nov 2013 #218
God, you are so well named. A sentiment that seems to get posted to you daily. Number23 Nov 2013 #225
3,2,1 Phlem Nov 2013 #227
Oh, for those - he had no choice, his hands were tied. Get with the program. djean111 Nov 2013 #87
Some one else did the work to make this happen... Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #43
Oh....so if he doesn't get any credit, he can't get any blame either! MADem Nov 2013 #45
Remind me again when Obama, in office, advocated for single payer. Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #46
Could have? They did. And they did it a long while ago. Two and a half years ago, actually. MADem Nov 2013 #47
Do you know anything about administrative law? joshcryer Nov 2013 #89
I thought Warren left because Obama nominated someone else? merrily Nov 2013 #109
Nope, read that link I posted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #112
No one told me. That is my recollection, which is supported by her wiki. merrily Nov 2013 #115
I addressed that stuff in my link. joshcryer Nov 2013 #120
Your post is not the final word. Lots of sources and my own recollection are to contrary. merrily Nov 2013 #126
She did not want the job. joshcryer Nov 2013 #128
As I said, I try to stay away from mind reading, esp. with people I've never spoken with. merrily Nov 2013 #129
History tells us what she wanted. joshcryer Nov 2013 #132
It may, or it may tell us what her second, third or fourth choice was. merrily Nov 2013 #135
I don't believe her first choice is to be head of a neutered CFPB. joshcryer Nov 2013 #139
Continuing the posting game of putting words in my mouth. You're on your own. merrily Nov 2013 #141
Whew. joshcryer Nov 2013 #144
Well, you still haven't replied to Post #116. When did the CBO rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #145
In 1993. joshcryer Nov 2013 #146
Single payer was not on the table then. Billarycare was. merrily Nov 2013 #149
Single Payer has never been on the table. joshcryer Nov 2013 #150
Parsing words. It has been introduced in every Congress since 2003, but has merrily Nov 2013 #158
Right, it wasn't on the table for Billarycare, or Obamacare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #160
Again, that depends on how you define "on the table." It was introduced. merrily Nov 2013 #164
I define it as you with regards to Billarycare. joshcryer Nov 2013 #165
I don't mean to be rude or anything, but it is self-evident that it is much better to MADem Nov 2013 #187
Caving on a provision because he needed the vote of every Senator in the Dem Caucus merrily Nov 2013 #108
Caving on what provision? MADem Nov 2013 #224
No, and it was a shitty dated provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #56
Isn't that better than forbidding states to enact single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #111
The CBO said the numbers didn't work. joshcryer Nov 2013 #113
When did the CBO ever rate single payer? merrily Nov 2013 #116
Actually, it seems the CBO said a lot of things about single payer in the 1990s, but little lately. merrily Nov 2013 #159
That's... what I said. joshcryer Nov 2013 #162
No, it isn't. But this is boring. So, I'll leave it at that. merrily Nov 2013 #169
Post #146... joshcryer Nov 2013 #170
He supported it two months before VT even passed their SP legislation--back in 2011. MADem Nov 2013 #70
Obviously, he supported the waiver or Vermont would not have it. merrily Nov 2013 #117
He supported it BEFORE VT passed their law--almost three years ago. MADem Nov 2013 #189
Sanders was instrumental in making the waiver deadline 2017? joshcryer Nov 2013 #55
Of course not. Sanders has no power to pass legislation on his own. merrily Nov 2013 #118
The poster said he gets credit for the waiver. joshcryer Nov 2013 #124
As I stated, that may have been a compromise on which he condititioned his ACA vote. merrily Nov 2013 #137
He now wants it moved to 2014. joshcryer Nov 2013 #138
So I found why Sanders agreed to 2017: joshcryer Nov 2013 #84
"the most insane objections" from the CBO. Gee, I wonder why. merrily Nov 2013 #121
He still voted for it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #123
I take him at his word. As stated twice before, the day may have been a compromise. merrily Nov 2013 #147
Erm, he pretty much laid it out. joshcryer Nov 2013 #153
He said the CBO's reasons were the most insane. merrily Nov 2013 #156
ie, acceptably insane. joshcryer Nov 2013 #157
Yeah....Obama gets blamed because he didn't sign a law that prohibited single-payer. It's rich. MADem Nov 2013 #17
It's pathetic Cali_Democrat Nov 2013 #24
"Everyone, grab a torch or a pitchfork!!!" bearssoapbox Nov 2013 #37
Mmmmmm mmmmmm good! MADem Nov 2013 #38
Yup, the ACA always had a single payer provision. joshcryer Nov 2013 #57
Yes it's because someone did another thread treestar Nov 2013 #68
What do all of the "Half Truth Posts" have in common? MADem Nov 2013 #69
Of course there was a barrier prior to Obamacare: pnwmom Nov 2013 #21
"The ACA was a work in progress till the day before it was passed." MADem Nov 2013 #30
Single payer has nothing to do with ACA. Vermont could have passed single payer Luminous Animal Nov 2013 #44
Well, they DID pass it--back in 2011. Before the Supreme Court ruled on it, too. MADem Nov 2013 #49
Vermont couldn't have paid for single payer before the ACA. pnwmom Nov 2013 #192
This point is highly overlooked in this thread. joshcryer Nov 2013 #233
Right. The ACA was a critical part of the package that made it possible.n/t pnwmom Nov 2013 #235
States needed an ERISA waiver, which was being pushed by Kucinich. n/t ProSense Nov 2013 #152
Bernie is the best. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #36
He took care of his state, as a good senator does. MADem Nov 2013 #53
The OP is an outright lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #54
First off, you're rude. Didn't your parents teach you manners? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #66
Ron Wyden was the author of 1332. Your OP is a lie. joshcryer Nov 2013 #76
Ok, let's take my OP one step at a time - if you dare MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #80
It's a weasel statement more than anything. joshcryer Nov 2013 #83
Thanks for the facts and links. randome Nov 2013 #85
Gay marriage, marijuana, and single payer. joshcryer Nov 2013 #86
So we agree that it's *true*. But you say it's *weaselly* because... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #88
The only difference is Green Mountain Care will have to compete. joshcryer Nov 2013 #90
So 100% of Vermonters will have health insurance in 2014? That's fantastic! MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #92
Not without the young and healthy paying into it. joshcryer Nov 2013 #95
So we agree: Vermont won't have universal coverage until 2017, and only MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #96
If they had a waiver today... joshcryer Nov 2013 #97
"much of that, of course, due to the expansion of Medicaid" MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #202
The national average is 17%, VT is 7%. joshcryer Nov 2013 #211
So how is that different than the change that would have occured in another 7% state? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #216
Um, the others don't have a GMC single insurer? joshcryer Nov 2013 #219
It's pretty clear that the individual who started this MADem Nov 2013 #239
I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed watching you and MADem chop this OP to ribbons Number23 Nov 2013 #206
Thanks. I think it's sad. joshcryer Nov 2013 #234
What's rude about the truth? And speaking of rude, isn't it rude to make up stories and pass them MADem Nov 2013 #190
Mr. Cryer has pointed out zero untruths MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #199
Your OP edit history proves otherwise. joshcryer Nov 2013 #213
And which edit would that be? MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #215
The one that included the actual author of the legislation? joshcryer Nov 2013 #232
Please refer to the article that I linked to at that time,... MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #243
I already have. You need to check yourself before you wreck yourself, as they used to say back in MADem Nov 2013 #222
Actually, thanks for single payer in Vermont should go even more to Shumlin cali Nov 2013 #62
+1 L0oniX Nov 2013 #104
And we should thank Putin for Syria deal, Hassan Rouhani for the Iran deal, ... pampango Nov 2013 #67
I hope that what the great state of Vermont is doing Autumn Nov 2013 #72
Amen. (Best post on the thread, IMO!) merrily Nov 2013 #168
Quite. Thank you Senator Snaders. Laelth Nov 2013 #75
It seems obvious that the health insurance industry would do everything they could to stop SP Fumesucker Nov 2013 #93
Thank you. That's what my gut tells me, in any event. n/t Laelth Nov 2013 #94
Keep trying, Manny... SidDithers Nov 2013 #78
And another manufactured outrage widget hits the shop room floor ... THUD. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #79
This one, however, had to be run through the outrage press 7 times before it was done... SidDithers Nov 2013 #102
Holy shit look at the edits on this one. joshcryer Nov 2013 #98
So a thread that is false gets 80+ recs scheming daemons Nov 2013 #114
They don't care. Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #177
.... Phlem Nov 2013 #196
and? Bobbie Jo Nov 2013 #204
I think you've got it handled for me. Phlem Nov 2013 #205
Maybe you dont belong in a "politically liberal" DU. Just sayin. You dont seem happy here. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #194
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #209
How dare you not include Rahm Emanuel? JVS Nov 2013 #122
Single Payer movement in the era of Obamacare ProSense Nov 2013 #148
This. a2liberal Nov 2013 #172
"The revisionist history that the cheerleaders ate trying to sell its amusing." ProSense Nov 2013 #182
Thank you, Bernie and Ron! nt valerief Nov 2013 #173
Bottom line, Vermont will have single payer and that is a great thing for Vermont and America. merrily Nov 2013 #174
Okay, Sens. Sanders. Warren and Wyden are all Gods! justhanginon Nov 2013 #175
Clearly, "credit" is a finite resource which must be rationed. JoePhilly Nov 2013 #176
I know and it's always directed at Saint Obama! Phlem Nov 2013 #198
Hardly a Saint, but certainly on the demon JoePhilly Nov 2013 #201
Not at all. Phlem Nov 2013 #203
careful Skittles Nov 2013 #229
It's OK, I've had the wrath before. My doctor prescribed some ointment. Phlem Nov 2013 #247
Repukes should be applauding this hughee99 Nov 2013 #210
LOL! ProSense Nov 2013 #242
Bernie, who I trust immensely more than you, said the Dem senate, and i quote; dionysus Nov 2013 #251
Which in no way contradicts what I wrote. MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #252
not at all. but it does dispense of the commonly overused meme that we'd have single payer or a dionysus Nov 2013 #253
Well it's certainly true that they didn't try MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #254
it's a sad situation but it wasn't hard to count up to 60 Manny. dionysus Nov 2013 #255
Read up on LBJ and the Civil Rights Act MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #256
+1,000 -- I love how Bernie's view mirrors mine! MADem Nov 2013 #263
and he's right, because he's a very smart man. he realizes their aren't 50 of him in the senate. dionysus Nov 2013 #264
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