Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

General Discussion

Showing Original Post only (View all)

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Tue Nov 26, 2013, 01:16 AM Nov 2013

Yes, poor people have color TVs [View all]

I started down this road in a different thread and kind of wanted to muse on this for a minute.

First off, yes: poor people in the US have color TVs. Poor people in Dharavi have color TVs (they're more common than water taps). Wherever people have electricity, they tend to get color TVs.

Nielson estimates that 115.6 million households (out of 115.8 million) have television sets. But color TV is a luxury, right? Not really. When the US switched from NTSC to ATSC in 2009, the barebones analog signal black and white TVs used to use (the color information is sent in a sideband modultion that black and white TVs don't know about) went away, meaning that now any black and white TV has to have the ATSC converted to NTSC and then converted to analog -- a process that is often more expensive than the original TV itself. New black and white consumer TVs are essentially not manufactured or marketed. Poor people have color TVs because that's what's manufactured and sold.

But that particular explanation ignores a larger point, which I think conservatives get exactly backwards. Color TVs used to be a luxury because they were expensive to make. They're very cheap to make now. The US doesn't make them much anymore (I think Zenith was the last US-owned major TV manufacturer, and LG bought it a while ago), but other industrialized countries do (and the US makes the machinery that they use to make them, so there's that). TV manufacturers saw an available market, and produced an affordable product for it. This is a good thing, and one of the few things capitalism does pretty well. As manufactured goods get cheaper and more plentiful, real standard of living increases (not that the color TV is a great example of improving standard of living, but it is definitely a small example of that). This leads to what seems paradoxical to a lot of conservatives: how can you call somebody "poor" when their quality of life is in many ways much better than that of a rich person a few decades ago? Color TV! Smartphones! etc.

Well, take smartphones, come to think of it. 10 years ago, there were Blackberry's and Treo's, and that was about it (and 10 years before that there weren't either of them). If you were very rich or had a job that required them, you had one; otherwise you didn't. Now you can go to a Boost Mobile outlet and pay $100 for a decent Android phone with a pre-paid plan.

Ah, there it is: a pre-paid plan. Androids are sometimes seen as "poorer" than iPhones, possibly because of that. Poor people can often afford the iPhone itself, but don't have the credit needed to get a postpaid plan from AT&T or Verizon. Which gets to my larger point:

The gap between the wealthy and the poor in industrialized countries is less about manufactured goods bought than it is about services consumed. There are still obviously some fantastically expensive "status" items, but for the most part most people have mobile phones, televisions, and computers (something like 99%, 98%, and 85% of households, respectively). A sign of richness now is having a good gym membership, bespoke clothes, eating at fancy restaurants, etc... all things that specifically don't get cheaper with automation (or at least not much cheaper).

This, I think, is a first hint of what poverty in a post-scarcity economy looks like. The ability to afford many of the same physical things the rich do without the security of knowing you'll be able to keep it for very long. (When I was very poor a few years ago I would buy a cell phone used, activate it and add some minutes, use it, and then sell it on Craigslist when I needed money to eat; same with my computer).

Unfortunately this will probably only get "worse" from a conservative standpoint: more and more things are going to get cheaper and more widely available. And I think that really does bother some on the right: they want a life in poverty to be as hard as possible (from their perspective -- wrongly -- they think that will motivate people to "stop being poor" or something). Personally, like I said I think overall it's a good thing that people can now afford things that used to be out of reach.

But the services gap is only going to keep getting worse. This is part of the problem with health-care prices; it's a service-intensive industry, and hopefully ACA will do something to make health-care services more available. But there are a lot of other services that the poor are priced out of, like car repair (just keep the beater running), and particularly troubling is education (public schools aren't "free" if it costs too much to live in the neighborhood they serve, to say nothing of tutors, etc.).

But then again maybe it doesn't have to be that way. Take manicures: that used to be a service for the well-to-do only, but that's changed in the past several decades, and now if you look on any immigrant-heavy street in any city in north America, you'll see nail salons everywhere -- there was an interesting study out of California showing that Vietnamese immigrants' opening salons had resulted in a large increase in the number of salons everywhere. And, in fact, with WalMart and Walgreens opening up clinics with nurse practitioners in every store, as well as the FQHC model expanded by the ACA, an idea very like the multitude of small, low-overhead standalone nail salons may be coming to health care. Could a model like that come to education? Would we want it to?

Anyways, I just wanted to get that off my chest. The physical objects a person owns at a given moment are no longer the sure signs of wealth or poverty that they were even a decade or two ago, and they're the wrong way to understand wealth and poverty now. Services are a much more important sector to look at, imo.

55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Yes, poor people have color TVs [View all] Recursion Nov 2013 OP
only hipsters have black and white TVs Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #1
I poured Sriracha on mine to make it color (nt) Recursion Nov 2013 #2
Back in the '60s, I remember a mail-order house Art_from_Ark Nov 2013 #10
that is transparently sad Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #11
I grew up with a black and white TV perched precariously on another, non-working, TV Recursion Nov 2013 #12
Sorry to go further off-topic but a2liberal Nov 2013 #22
Sorry, I should have specified "in India" Recursion Nov 2013 #23
Oh ok a2liberal Nov 2013 #24
There are some pirate channels depending on where you are Recursion Nov 2013 #27
My grandpa had one of those in the 1950s, I kid you not Hekate Nov 2013 #32
Do they even make black-and-white TV's anymore? 655351 Nov 2013 #39
Right-wingers love to say that poor people aren't poor due to Lydia Leftcoast Nov 2013 #3
Globally the "1%" line starts at about $30K Recursion Nov 2013 #5
Someone used that "steak with an EBT card" line recently. pamela Nov 2013 #18
good one. nt laundry_queen Nov 2013 #19
Your last paragraph is spot on. CrispyQ Nov 2013 #45
Well how are exceptional Americans going to measure success if everyone has the same consumer goods? NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #4
Honestly, there's probably some of that involved, too Recursion Nov 2013 #6
lolololol... exactly, NYC_SKP. I think that's a big chunk of it right there, my friend! spot ON! Divine Discontent Nov 2013 #14
Exactly, which is why I hate this kind of crap treestar Nov 2013 #31
Rich people have maids RobertEarl Nov 2013 #7
Yeah, that was what my other thread was about Recursion Nov 2013 #8
my TV remote is a butler who changes channels for me Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #13
FOX trades in resentment, not facts. nt Hekate Nov 2013 #33
First off, I'm under the impression that black and white TVs haven't been SheilaT Nov 2013 #9
I have a dumb phone, and boy, is it *dumb* Art_from_Ark Nov 2013 #15
You need to pay more attention to it. SheilaT Nov 2013 #50
You know, Art_from_Ark Nov 2013 #53
The last one I can think of was the Sony Watchman, last B&W models 1994. dimbear Nov 2013 #29
I can proudly say I've still never bought a flat screen. Still working with the 32" CRT Pretzel_Warrior Nov 2013 #16
Every company I've sysadmin'd at usually had a graphic artist Recursion Nov 2013 #17
Shows how long they've been spouting this nonsense. Spitfire of ATJ Nov 2013 #20
I remember motels having that sign out... Historic NY Nov 2013 #21
Its not free hbo anymore thats the 1990's and early 2000's ... kydo Nov 2013 #34
LOL. Historic NY Nov 2013 #44
I reckon about half the people in the US who don't have a TV are on the DU Fumesucker Nov 2013 #25
We have a 25-year old Zenith up in the bedroom rucky Nov 2013 #26
Glad you got that off your chest JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #28
RICH people have black and white TVs! MADem Nov 2013 #30
Do they even make black and white tv's anymore? kydo Nov 2013 #35
Breakfast Bugs and mud huts are the new conservative poverty bar. HughBeaumont Nov 2013 #36
I wouldn't ascribe motives Shankapotomus Nov 2013 #37
They have indoor plumbing and electric lights too. quaker bill Nov 2013 #38
Circuses have always been made available to the poor... Orsino Nov 2013 #40
Poor people all over the world have TVs because Nevernose Nov 2013 #41
In the '60s when TouchTone and color telephones were introduced, they sold well in poor areas FarCenter Nov 2013 #42
The gap is less about manufactured goods bought than services consumed. LWolf Nov 2013 #43
Go to ANY Goodwill in the country and buy a color TV for $15.00 Glitterati Nov 2013 #46
non-digital... JCMach1 Nov 2013 #54
The digital converter tuner boxes are readily available for cheap at flea markets and thrift stores Fumesucker Nov 2013 #55
TVs are cheap entertainment XemaSab Nov 2013 #47
Real estate (rent) and food do not get cheaper. PowerToThePeople Nov 2013 #48
Just this morning I followed a Facebook link to a video of a 1982 news story Lydia Leftcoast Nov 2013 #49
Hand-me-down TVs Quantess Nov 2013 #51
They need to walk into a thrift store gollygee Nov 2013 #52
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Yes, poor people have col...