General Discussion

BainsBane

(57,757 posts)

208. "regardless" is hypothetical

Tue Nov 26, 2013, 07:48 PM

Nov 2013

Either someone cares about workers rights or he doesn't. If someone pretends to care about workers rights but suddenly evokes the "choice" argument about porn work, there is an ideological disconnect.

It appears to me your continual use of "suppression" is evading the issues people are concerned about. The poster who mentioned the First Amendment didn't argue for suppression. She asked how people could justify it.

As I have repeated many times, some porn is made with slave labor. It is not a trivial matter or an insignificant amount of porn. Continually evoking the First Amendment and ignoring the other rights at stake, such as workers rights or the right to be free from bondage, is to focus exclusively on the rights of consumers--overwhelmingly male--over the rights of porn workers, free or coerced--overwhelmingly female.

No right is absolute. The exist in relation to each other. To posit an imaginary porn universe where workers are treated well as a justification for all extreme porn is an unsound argument.
Now if someone made a point of consuming porn only from licensed and regulated companies, that would be a step forward. When I have made that suggestion, however, it has been rebuked. The focus for most remains entirely on the wants and liberty of the porn consumer.

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] Arcanetrance Nov 2013 OP

Oh, what woman doesn't get excited about being called a cum loving whore? renie408 Nov 2013 #1

Because those who are civl libertarians see the bigger picture Major Nikon Nov 2013 #33

Yeah...we are going to agree to disagree on this one. renie408 Nov 2013 #38

We stand up for Walmart workers who "consent" to crappy jobs, crappy wages and KittyWampus Nov 2013 #94

Ok. renie408 Nov 2013 #101

Do you shop there? renie408 Nov 2013 #110

Why only the women? jeff47 Nov 2013 #148

Why does no one ever respond to this question? Kurska Nov 2013 #303

Sure you can, and you should Major Nikon Nov 2013 #191

"regardless" is hypothetical BainsBane Nov 2013 #208

Gonna call bullshit Major Nikon Nov 2013 #211

My point is that your concern should not stop at the picket line BainsBane Nov 2013 #219

It does and is no different than any other worker, but nice try Major Nikon Nov 2013 #230

They why do you continue to evoke choice? BainsBane Nov 2013 #240

Tap...Tap....Tap....Is this thing on? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #247

It is increasingly clear that the new definition of straw BainsBane Nov 2013 #245

... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #248

An opinion supported by the evidence in this subthread BainsBane Nov 2013 #255

OK, so it's true Major Nikon Nov 2013 #260

I did not say that BainsBane Nov 2013 #262

And I agreed. nt xulamaude Nov 2013 #252

How many hours (approximately) have you spent on a picket line xulamaude Nov 2013 #223

Welcome to DU Major Nikon Nov 2013 #231

Okay and thanks for the welcome xulamaude Nov 2013 #239

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #249

Did he? It must have been after a bunch of snark so I tuned it out BainsBane Nov 2013 #257

Additionally, the same choice exercised by free-wage porn laborers BainsBane Nov 2013 #210

+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #222

That's a really good point! JustAnotherGen Nov 2013 #227

Exactly BainsBane Nov 2013 #205

One might see the bigger issue being women, human beings, world wide seabeyond Nov 2013 #108

Oh quit with your trying to take away a woman's right to make bad decisions. renie408 Nov 2013 #116

ya. no, wouldnt happen. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #125

What makes you think feminists who make the exact same arguments aren't? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #140

How does civil libertarianism negate the rights of others to say they find BainsBane Nov 2013 #147

The answer is the same for anyone who finds homosexuality disturbing Major Nikon Nov 2013 #189

Arcanetrance isn't talking about suppression BainsBane Nov 2013 #195

I didn't reply to that poster Major Nikon Nov 2013 #202

Consider another side of that "bigger picture", and ask yourself how you'd feel about material whathehell Nov 2013 #162

Well done, that's easily the most specious argument of this entire debate LittleBlue Nov 2013 #168

No, dear, I just confused my amendments for a moment..I meant the Fourteenth. whathehell Nov 2013 #291

I'm not going to get into red herring arguments Major Nikon Nov 2013 #184

No, a "red herring" would only exist if the situations were non analogous.. whathehell Nov 2013 #287

Stand your ground�by definition is free�.something. Tikki Nov 2013 #212

The man in the wilderness Major Nikon Nov 2013 #213

Stand Your ground� Tikki Nov 2013 #216

Which is simply more of the same Major Nikon Nov 2013 #233

It's a human rights issue, not a phony baloney "civil liberties" issue. duffyduff Nov 2013 #263

I've consumed porn for years, and have never, not once, come upon so called rape or violent porn. Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #2

So if you find it hard to believe obviously it must not be than is that what your saying Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #5

What I'm saying is, it can't be that prevalent if it never crossed my eyes. Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #10

I suppose if you're careful and/or selective enough you might avoid the worst material. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #224

Then google it gollygee Nov 2013 #6

I truly do not believe you. Right now you can go to any popular site... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #13

Maybe you missed the part where I said that commercial porn doesn't excite me. Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #20

if all involved are consenting adults BuddhaGirl Nov 2013 #3

what if the women are consenting hfojvt Nov 2013 #85

Probably both consent & exploitation, and not a crime. Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #92

All low-paying and/or unpleasant jobs are exploitative in some sense. I have no problem saying that. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #226

I disagree with you. Sex and violence are not equivalent. closeupready Nov 2013 #4

Sex and violence shouldn't go together Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #9

Sorry, I don't see it. Women like sex, too. closeupready Nov 2013 #17

Because they've completely removed the human being Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #25

I don't see the violence in that, however. closeupready Nov 2013 #30

For you. and that's great. Blue_Adept Nov 2013 #145

I had a partner Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #196

Exactly. Blue_Adept Nov 2013 #229

kind of like Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #246

I've been staying out of this too, but all these posts made me think ... Vox Moi Nov 2013 #7

Are people finding those movies sexually gratifying? gollygee Nov 2013 #8

War is not for sexual gratification but it is entertainment. Vox Moi Nov 2013 #22

Do you realize that perpetuating the myth that rape is about sex is dangerous and wrong? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #241

And then there was this movie ... dawg Nov 2013 #16

One of the best put downs I've ever seen! Vox Moi Nov 2013 #27

I love that clip. dawg Nov 2013 #35

Post this as an OP and see what happens. thucythucy Nov 2013 #97

I'm middle aged get the red out Nov 2013 #11

You are confused about what consent is LittleBlue Nov 2013 #12

So do you think its outside the realm of possibility to have gotten consent through coercion Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #15

On the popular tube sites? no LittleBlue Nov 2013 #23

Those who condone these depictions conveniently leave out a few facts. NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #26

"It's not even about consent" Union Scribe Nov 2013 #53

"...acts that seem to be depicted in those videos strike me as rape." NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #88

+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #237

this is what worries me about porn MissMillie Nov 2013 #31

I understand your concern but rrneck Nov 2013 #103

Or just sheer desperation. renie408 Nov 2013 #32

Yes sheer desperation as well Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #37

So we should make them more desperate? jeff47 Nov 2013 #40

Never said that... renie408 Nov 2013 #49

An experience does not have to be uplifting in order to consent to it. jeff47 Nov 2013 #62

No renie408 Nov 2013 #81

So women need to be protected from bad decisions? jeff47 Nov 2013 #89

The quote you high-lighted is probably the reason for this post. Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #99

No renie408 Nov 2013 #104

Because that's the route everyone else takes when posting "porn is bad" jeff47 Nov 2013 #129

Well, why didn't you tell me.you wanted to handle both sides of the discussion? renie408 Nov 2013 #206

Where did the OP explicitly advocate banning *anything*? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #242

I'm assuming then you would oppose thucythucy Nov 2013 #105

Bingo renie408 Nov 2013 #113

A boycott and a legal ban are different things. jeff47 Nov 2013 #124

well, what I see feminists here doing is consciousness raising. CTyankee Nov 2013 #181

Because only women act in porn, right? jeff47 Nov 2013 #185

oh, dear, missing the point again...I try so hard... CTyankee Nov 2013 #187

+1. The logic in the OP's arguments here is lacking in my opinion. closeupready Nov 2013 #19

Liberals generally understand that sometimes "consent" can be manufactured and coerced. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #96

Liberals have brains LittleBlue Nov 2013 #100

And such "coercion" must be proven in a court of law. Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #107

You don't have to prove something in a court of law to decide on it (or against it) for yourself. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #244

Good. I hope others make the distinction between... Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #296

yup personal choice is what it should come down to, you dont want to be callwd names during sex loli phabay Nov 2013 #298

The titles and the way they refer to women in the titles of porn videos has always bothered me. Ian David Nov 2013 #14

those words are self descriptors, you see them in the chatrooms every day. loli phabay Nov 2013 #299

If it was done between consenting adults, who fricken cares? Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #18

What's the name of this popular site? For research purposes only. Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #21

From a man's perspective - that's always been a Turn Off FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #24

Not to mention all the oral sex videos. No woman would ever willingly give oral sex. penultimate Nov 2013 #28

I find it weird how you conflate oral sex with the kind of sex... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #36

Because some people find oral sex gross and would never do it penultimate Nov 2013 #51

I would generally tend to agree, except what we're talking about is more "rough" than "sex" nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #268

Oh! I thought you were referencing the other way around. Wel-l-l now... Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #119

The voice of reason TroglodyteScholar Nov 2013 #166

Consenting adults get to do things we don't like. jeff47 Nov 2013 #29

Serious question: how do you equate "cum loving whore" to "violence"? Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #34

Actually selling sexual service has proven to be very violent to the women doing so Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #39

Switching up the discussion, what do you want to do about rape porn? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #42

What these folks seem to want is an official Government Porn Inspector who views it all, Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #46

What I want is for liberal men thucythucy Nov 2013 #91

Porn Tsar! nt Bonobo Nov 2013 #234

Calling a woman a whore is very clearly psychic violence. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #44

Well yes, the term can be an insult. But it can also be a job description. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #45

Maybe you should educate yourself on the history of the word. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #74

I'll ask you the same question that I asked the OP LittleBlue Nov 2013 #56

Perhaps force them to replace the word "whore" with "call girl"? Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #64

Haha, indeed LittleBlue Nov 2013 #67

Ask politely and for political reasons that people do not use the word xulamaude Nov 2013 #152

Umm... Agschmid Nov 2013 #154

I want people to stop consuming it. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #72

You want people to voluntarily stop watching porn? LittleBlue Nov 2013 #79

No, I want people to stop consuming violent, misogynist porn. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #111

+1 nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #270

I want unicorns and rainbows. Comrade Grumpy Nov 2013 #102

Are you finished? It's time for a grown up discussion. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #114

The lay person? Agschmid Nov 2013 #159

Someone who isn't blatantly aware of the violence and misogyny inherent in most porn. Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #217

I think most are aware... Agschmid Nov 2013 #218

I don't know. What part of gay pornography are you talking about? Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #221

I guess I am curious to know... Agschmid Nov 2013 #225

Yes, it absolutely can. Although, despite myself watching a good amount of gay porn... Gravitycollapse Nov 2013 #235

I think your projecting way to much FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #266

Most likely, yes. But you never know. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #271

It's not going to happen. Agschmid Nov 2013 #158

Maybe simply get people to think more carefully about the media they consume? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #269

Try whispering that in somebody's ear. PassingFair Nov 2013 #87

I really don't mind saying I think porn should be illegal. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #41

Yes, that's worked so well for prostitution jeff47 Nov 2013 #70

100% solutions rarely exist in the real world. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #76

I'm not arguing we should keep those laws. jeff47 Nov 2013 #86

I do not believe hard crack should be legal. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #109

That line of scum exists because it's illegal. jeff47 Nov 2013 #122

This is not even close to correct. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #128

Well, look at prohibition. jeff47 Nov 2013 #132

But I love Gorn Glassunion Nov 2013 #43

I have tried to ignore these threads too.. FirstLight Nov 2013 #47

Wow I'm really sorry those things happened to you it must have taken alot of strength to share that Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #58

Thank you for telling it like it really is xulamaude Nov 2013 #59

thanks FirstLight Nov 2013 #65

You are so tremendously brave. I hope you have found peace riderinthestorm Nov 2013 #66

well FirstLight Nov 2013 #80

If it was science, then it would be provable. jeff47 Nov 2013 #83

Considering that rape and incest are so under reported thucythucy Nov 2013 #121

Because under-reported would not be unique to Utah. jeff47 Nov 2013 #134

I don't think under reporting is an evenly thucythucy Nov 2013 #150

That's why I picked another socially conservative state as an example. jeff47 Nov 2013 #151

The plural of anecdote is not data, true. But that doesn't mean anecdotes are invalid or useless. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #276

thanks for saying that...but my story will not matter to those die hard "statistics" people FirstLight Nov 2013 #281

It's important that people tell their stories though. No matter how "extreme" their case. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #288

Your story is how we get those statistics jeff47 Nov 2013 #297

Thank you for this post. thucythucy Nov 2013 #90

Thanks for posting this. dawg Nov 2013 #95

Thank you for posting that and I'm glad you and your daughter got out azurnoir Nov 2013 #120

Gut renching and horrifying. Thank you so much for sharing this Number23 Nov 2013 #137

Porn is like alcohol, most handle it fine, some it causes major issues. n-t Logical Nov 2013 #201

Thank you for the courageous post. n/t Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #293

I agree that porn is tasteless and that our repressive culture has made large Egalitarian Thug Nov 2013 #48

I'm curious why you thought all the "anal" sex shown Schema Thing Nov 2013 #50

Surely nobody would do *that* willingly. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #52

you've got to be kidding. eggplant Nov 2013 #130

I suggest you read the joy of Gay sex. William769 Nov 2013 #198

The anal sex itself isn't what got to me it was the "gaping" and insertion of objects both anally Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #54

I know gay men who are into that. ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2013 #57

Whatever man if that's what you've taken away from this Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #61

A perfect illustration of the slippery slope. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #63

Question anywhere in my post did I say anything about wanting a ban or advocating for a ban Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #68

That's just the impression I got from your post. But I apologize if I misunderstood. Nye Bevan Nov 2013 #69

I don't want to ban what two adults do in the comfort of their own home Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #73

I keep seeing this sentiment LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #123

People have been doing that for thousands of years. At least. eggplant Nov 2013 #157

There are lots of people out there who enjoy that Marrah_G Nov 2013 #165

Didn't you hear? Sodomy is unnatural and against God. ForgoTheConsequence Nov 2013 #55

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2013 #194

Agree: Whats wrong with anal? Jesus Malverde Nov 2013 #75

This type of porn disgusts me but I strongly support its legality. last1standing Nov 2013 #60

I think, for starters, it should be subject to the same criticism thucythucy Nov 2013 #84

Most of the posts attacking porn seem to be calling for a legal ban jeff47 Nov 2013 #117

none of the posts attack porn has been about banning. regardless how the discussion is continually seabeyond Nov 2013 #135

There's a certain amount of reading into the posts jeff47 Nov 2013 #139

"certain amount of reading into the posts" NO. just NO. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #142

People are rarely explicit in what they want on message boards. jeff47 Nov 2013 #146

Not really Jeff. I tend to ask. I do not like ASSuming cause I do not like being wrong. seabeyond Nov 2013 #264

Some people posting here and elsewhere thucythucy Nov 2013 #138

It's both. jeff47 Nov 2013 #144

Can't I condemn the terms but still defend them as free speech? last1standing Nov 2013 #133

Careful, or someone will come along and say you're anti-sex. historylovr Nov 2013 #71

The most popular porn video site on the web is XHamster Xithras Nov 2013 #77

Well I went to xvideos the second video on the first row is entitle Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #78

Indeed. That was one of the two I cited. Xithras Nov 2013 #82

I suppose to a certain extent, you'll always find what you're looking for. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #277

I just went to that site and polly7 Nov 2013 #127

Anyone else here remember The Hite Report? closeupready Nov 2013 #93

Just what we need around here lillypaddle Nov 2013 #98

Yeah, when we could all be talking about Zimmy some more! Eleanors38 Nov 2013 #131

Whatever, people are into weird stuff and you can't do anything about it really quinnox Nov 2013 #106

not only female-hating but viciously racist, anti-semitic language too zazen Nov 2013 #112

Very true on the racist aspects I've never heard of holocaust porn that sounds disgusting on another Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #115

Fine, so don't watch it. eggplant Nov 2013 #169

Do you think the dehumanization of anyone male or female is an okay thing Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #172

Wow. eggplant Nov 2013 #176

I'm done man I'm done if you're willing to tell me that pornography depicting racist intent is okay Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #178

There is a ton of non-porn that depicts racist intent. eggplant Nov 2013 #182

But there is porn degrading women because of their race and that is quite relevant and wrong Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #186

Um, no. eggplant Nov 2013 #192

No, it shouldn't be banned LittleBlue Nov 2013 #238

It's not authoritarian to draw a line racist dehumanization Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #243

If you are talking about preventing people from crossing that line... Major Nikon Nov 2013 #254

Oh, good grief.... Hissyspit Nov 2013 #118

Thank you for your puritanism. eggplant Nov 2013 #126

Any puritanism in me is completely self imagined on your part Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #136

As someone who has been in the computer industry for the past 35 years... eggplant Nov 2013 #155

And that really is the sad truth of it xulamaude Nov 2013 #171

And kittens! Don't forget the kittens! eggplant Nov 2013 #175

Astounding indeed and I make good use of it myself xulamaude Nov 2013 #179

The kittens thank you! eggplant Nov 2013 #188

There are plenty of videos where men get called those names, and things inserted into their butts mwrguy Nov 2013 #141

And I think it's just as dehumanizing to call men those names Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #160

Some people like that sort of treatment and seek it out mwrguy Nov 2013 #197

There's a 'categories' button at the top. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #143

You found very mild representations of what we've been talking about BainsBane Nov 2013 #149

I wish there were an easy way to report what clearly looks criminal zazen Nov 2013 #153

Very little of it is illegal BainsBane Nov 2013 #161

Modern porn requires proof of age of the actors. eggplant Nov 2013 #164

Contact the FBI LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #180

thx--the condescension of other posters aside, I recognize pubescent breasts, zazen Nov 2013 #265

You're quite welcome. LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #267

I can't stomach it the descriptions of it or any of it I get physically ill Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #163

And yet you are staying and continuing to argue. eggplant Nov 2013 #170

If you think you'll go to every one of my posts and harass me into submission you're in for a Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #174

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #177

geez...Stay classy, eggplant... CTyankee Nov 2013 #183

I was just making a point. eggplant Nov 2013 #190

Remember when Lenny Bruce was arrested for obscenity because of his vocabulary? Cuccinelli lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #200

I think that 5-1 jury was telling you something, buddy... CTyankee Nov 2013 #236

I prefer consenting cartoon characters anyway: kentauros Nov 2013 #156

Foglio for the win! Blue_Adept Nov 2013 #167

He never stopped producing great stuff :) kentauros Nov 2013 #173

Girl Genius is great mwrguy Nov 2013 #199

Thanks! kentauros Nov 2013 #203

Ack! Wrong place! kentauros Nov 2013 #214

I still remember his Dragon Magazine work Blue_Adept Nov 2013 #228

Staying out of porn threads, but appears not porn sites. Curious, where do you find that a porn lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #193

You are totally wrong though Paolo123 Nov 2013 #204

The casual evidence to support the OP's claim is dubious Major Nikon Nov 2013 #207

violent crime has declined in the industrialized West due to demographic factors BainsBane Nov 2013 #220

nope Paolo123 Nov 2013 #250

RAINN disagrees Major Nikon Nov 2013 #251

stickily MRA LIES!!!! lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #259

I think porn can be done in a way that's not misogynistic, but most of it is not. alarimer Nov 2013 #209

And then there are the consenting Gingerbread Men: kentauros Nov 2013 #215

I have no doubt the proliferation of easily accessible porn has harmed ecstatic Nov 2013 #232

Offense to women Rosa Luxemburg Nov 2013 #253

You look at wierd porn. TransitJohn Nov 2013 #256

Yes that must be it of course how could I have been so dumb Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #258

fiction is bad because it reminds you of something real? aikoaiko Nov 2013 #261

Maybe more that the line between fiction and reality here is blurry enough to concern people? nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #278

In the eye of the beholder. 99Forever Nov 2013 #272

You seem to think I have delicate sensibilities Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #273

"The Supreme Court says there are exceptions." See, I agree with you completely, otherwise. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #279

True that's not what I wanted to put forward Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #282

You're citing Fat Tony and the Supremes? 99Forever Nov 2013 #295

"the supreme court says there are exceptions to this idea." and they said this kind of porn ain't it Kurska Nov 2013 #304

My daughter is taking a psychology/sex class. She has a female classmate that is into fisting. liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #274

How is pointing out the violent trend in mainstream pornography putting myself in anyones bedroom Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #275

"None of you can sit here with a straight face and tell me those are terms of endearment" Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #280

I'm not trying to push for a ban my point was against those that say there are no violent tendencies Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #283

Stop playing semantic games Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #284

Well stated. And yeah.. they're always careful to avoid the word "ban", but.. opiate69 Nov 2013 #285

Ok read what you want I really don't give a damn you'r playing a fucking game it's called ignorance Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #286

Would you like me to quote your words? Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #289

Do me a favor and don't call me sweetie that's the first thing Arcanetrance Nov 2013 #292

OK, "sweetie" was patronising Prophet 451 Nov 2013 #294

Good post. I don't know why people try to tell others they can't do something because they liberal_at_heart Nov 2013 #290

If you must know Kurska Nov 2013 #300

This is just straight trolling now Capt. Obvious Nov 2013 #301

Seriously, I'd never imply criticism on one our most beloved DU group Kurska Nov 2013 #302