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struggle4progress

(125,727 posts)
192. The poster, to whom I responded, suggested that burning "witches" was somehow a Catholic notion
Wed Nov 27, 2013, 10:36 AM
Nov 2013

I just documented that burning "witches" was actually the Roman punishment

In the old Judaic texts, the first mention of burning as a punishment is Genesis 38: 15-19, 24-26, in the story of Judah and Tamar, where the penalty is rapidly revealed to be entirely unjust. It is later prescribed in Leviticus 20: 14 as the punishment for a man marrying both a woman and her daughter, and in Leviticus 21: 9 as the punishment for a priest’s daughter who becomes a prostitute, which seems consistent with the story of Judah and Tamar

The passage that you cite doesn't mention burning; Leviticus 20: 27 suggests the penalty was stoning. Not being an expert on the place or time, I do not know how commonly "witchcraft" might have been punished in ancient Judaism

The early Catholic church took the practice of witchcraft seriously, as reversion to paganism, but did not punish it according to the old Levitical law:

... The Council of Elvira (306), Canon 6, refused the holy Viaticum to those who had killed a man by a spell ... Irish canons in the far West treated sorcery as a crime to be visited with excommunication until adequate penance had been performed ... In these earlier centuries a few individual prosecutions for witchcraft took place, and in some of these torture (permitted by the Roman civil law) apparently took place. Pope Nicholas I, indeed (A.D. 866), prohibited the use of torture ... Gregory VII in 1080 wrote to King Harold of Denmark forbidding witches to be put to death upon presumption of their having caused storms or failure of crops or pestilence ... It was at any rate at Toulouse, the hot-bed of Catharan infection, that we meet in 1275 the earliest example of a witch burned to death after judicial sentence of an inquisitor, who was in this case a certain Hugues de Baniol (Cauzons, "La Magic", II, 217) ... On the other hand, after the middle of the thirteenth century, the then recently-constituted Papal Inquisition began to concern itself with charges of witchcraft ... link

Saint Augustine of Hippo, an influential theologian in the early Christian Church, argued in the early 400s that ... neither Satan nor witches had supernatural powers or were capable of effectively invoking magic of any sort. It was the "error of the pagans" to believe in "some other divine power than the one God" ... The late medieval Church accepted St. Augustine's view, and hence felt little need to bother itself with tracking down witches or investigating allegations of witchcraft. link

The persecution of "witches," including "witch"-burning and other executions, is largely concentrated in a few locales, mostly French and German, and mostly in the early modern era, over a thousand years after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. These activities were not the result of some continuing Judaic or Christian practice









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It's about time the f'n RCC step up and join other spiritual leaders like the Dalai Lama. nt NYC_SKP Nov 2013 #1
he read and understood the red words in the new testament roguevalley Nov 2013 #93
It's shocking isn't it. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #108
Funny MFrohike Nov 2013 #124
Don't have a Catholic Bible? Redford Nov 2013 #172
"I'm pretty sure" MFrohike Nov 2013 #206
The RCC was preaching about equality and poverty for many years. It was the Church of my youth Drahthaardogs Nov 2013 #103
Indeed it was . . . markpkessinger Nov 2013 #140
Anglicans have been preaching this for many years. dotymed Nov 2013 #179
A sign of the times. We are entering the new millenium a decade and a half later than planned. randome Nov 2013 #2
Pope yeoman6987 Nov 2013 #3
He's a Jesuit. GoCubsGo Nov 2013 #4
I agree...the Jesuits were all about social justice back in my day. nt Old and In the Way Nov 2013 #39
Yep. Jesuits generally kick ass and take names. They are the ones that Nay Nov 2013 #99
yays for this Pope! healthcare and communications. The USA needs to catch up with our internet! Sunlei Nov 2013 #5
I'm not usually much JesterCS Nov 2013 #6
Our Democratic leadership should be saying this LittleBlue Nov 2013 #7
Seriously! This is written like a new Liberal Manifesto for the 21st century. JaneyVee Nov 2013 #8
This is the point. We must demand that our elected Democrats speak to these issues Enthusiast Nov 2013 #181
yeah, but fuck him, remember? n/t yodermon Nov 2013 #9
Exactly! Because the poor don't matter; just female priests, gay marriage, and abortion rights. AllTooEasy Nov 2013 #34
You understand that's a two way argument, right? nt eqfan592 Nov 2013 #95
No no... MellowDem Nov 2013 #165
he is kicking ass and taking names ZRT2209 Nov 2013 #10
Holy Cow is RIGHT!! AmBlue Nov 2013 #11
He should send the Manifesto to Paul Ryan watoos Nov 2013 #12
+1 treestar Nov 2013 #18
He should send it to OBAMA ! pangaia Nov 2013 #24
Obama isn't Catholic. watoos Nov 2013 #49
I agree 110% with your statement. pangaia Nov 2013 #86
People like Ryan hate the Catholic Church really. glinda Nov 2013 #37
John Boehner's Catholic Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Nov 2013 #70
He has no clue there is a new pope. lol SummerSnow Nov 2013 #101
Paul Ryan now worships Ayn Rand. nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #109
He should also send to Michele Bachmann. As a matter of fact...he should send Auntie Bush Nov 2013 #138
last time they had a pope like this demigoddess Nov 2013 #13
I was just thinking that, sadly :/ (nt) Recursion Nov 2013 #16
That worries me too. Cleita Nov 2013 #20
I had that discussion the other day... Historic NY Nov 2013 #87
There was a very interesting... 3catwoman3 Nov 2013 #162
So good Catholics actually have a pope more like John XX111 locks Nov 2013 #14
DING DING! BrotherIvan Nov 2013 #47
And fire or arrest those who have been involved rocktivity Nov 2013 #127
Shoes of the Fisherman anyone? nt tomp Nov 2013 #175
I was thinking the same thing... bullsnarfle Nov 2013 #187
It is a good thing to have a Pope be clearly a liberal on economic issues treestar Nov 2013 #15
Anti-rightwing? Ask him about same sex marriage, abortion, contraceptives, or physician assisted AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #17
I wholeheartedly agree... truebrit71 Nov 2013 #21
Yup. "It is not “progressive” to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life."... SidDithers Nov 2013 #26
I'm sorry. We'll make sure the next Pope is headlining the NARAL convention. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #51
Pope Photo-Op's very own words about abortion ... SidDithers Nov 2013 #58
Not going to happen, whether you want it to or not. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #73
I know it's not going to happen... SidDithers Nov 2013 #76
Why would anyone expect the Catholic Church to change it's position on abortion? A Simple Game Nov 2013 #78
Curches change their position on stuff all the time. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #85
They did stop burning and drowning witches Paulie Nov 2013 #91
That seems to have been a Roman custom and so may have spread through Europe struggle4progress Nov 2013 #173
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." trotsky Nov 2013 #186
The poster, to whom I responded, suggested that burning "witches" was somehow a Catholic notion struggle4progress Nov 2013 #192
Ah, so you aren't disagreeing that witchcraft was a crime and punishable... trotsky Nov 2013 #193
+1 n/t zazen Nov 2013 #153
Because they have in the past. trotsky Nov 2013 #190
you realize that policies tend to fall over two spheres- economic and social. Economically KittyWampus Nov 2013 #50
There are some overlap between the two, as well. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #61
I agree. They still have a long way to go, but.... JaneyVee Nov 2013 #77
Oh good, it's been a few days since the last thread glorifying Pope Photo-Op... SidDithers Nov 2013 #19
So you don't agree with his position on predatory capitalism and what has done to the poor around sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #27
As a Liberal Democrat I have a problem with him being 100% anti-choice... truebrit71 Nov 2013 #31
As a Liberal Democrat I see the huge strides taken by this Pope in just a few months after centuries sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #40
So, if the chairman of the RNC came out against crony capitalism, but kept the rest of the social AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #65
Well said Stuckinthebush Nov 2013 #100
Are you advocating that the millions of Catholics who are Democrats LEAVE the Party? I am glad sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #116
Not even close. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #117
You always say the right thing! Enthusiast Nov 2013 #110
Good response. The pope is addressing the core teachings of Jesus. olegramps Nov 2013 #188
LOOK, he's the Pope. There may be many areas of DISagreement - but Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #144
"I think it's wonderful to have a pope who dares to take on the Criminal Global Corporations"... Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #33
You appear to be very obsessed with slamming any good this Pope is trying to do. And contrary to sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #42
As a member of the LGBT community, I have every right to. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #63
As a woman I could ignore the baby steps also but choose to applaud even the tiny steps taken by sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #112
So you want me to applaud him for doing what he's supposed to be doing as a religious leader? Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #113
Yes, because so few of them do what they are supposed to do once they achieve positions of power. sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #123
He's taking a stand on nothing. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #133
He is taking a huge stand. Clearly you would prefer that he support the old status quo. sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #197
Relax. This is 840high Nov 2013 #146
"Good" is subjective. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #147
I don't agree with his position on the status of women... SidDithers Nov 2013 #41
That wasn't my question. I'm pleased, as a Liberal Democratic Woman with what he did say to the sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #44
Oh, you asked me a question?... SidDithers Nov 2013 #48
My, SidDithers being a purist. rug Nov 2013 #52
Oh dear, the Host of DU's Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity Group hating on Papal critics... SidDithers Nov 2013 #55
You misunderstand. I am quite amused. rug Nov 2013 #57
cheap shot there Sid irisblue Nov 2013 #149
What about the post I was replying to?...nt SidDithers Nov 2013 #151
Shocking, isn't it? cordelia Nov 2013 #178
I didn't expect you to answer it and fully expected the response I got. But I'm an optimist and keep sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #88
If the Pope moved into a cancer ward, Sid would call it a photo op. rug Nov 2013 #102
The day the Pope performs a same-sex marriage is the day I'll sing his praises... SidDithers Nov 2013 #114
No you won't. You'll call it a photo op. rug Nov 2013 #115
You're right, it's a hypothetical that will never come to pass. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #118
Bookmarked. rug Nov 2013 #120
When the catholic church reverses its position on same sex marriage, abortion, and euthanasia AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #122
What's more important to you, the doctrine or the civil law? rug Nov 2013 #125
The doctrine, because it represents millions of dollars and millions of votes in opposition to AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #128
So, do you think it should be outlawed? rug Nov 2013 #131
Please, i've posted the donation totals from catholic church leadership on issues before. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #132
It's lobby has been dismally ineffective then. rug Nov 2013 #134
I object to bigoted, right-wing, horrible, regressive, misogynist , sexist, homophobic beliefs. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #135
And the law now is . . . . what? rug Nov 2013 #137
In my state, and three others, it's allowed now. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #169
Just a detail but... JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #196
There is. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #198
I guess I went to unusual churches. JNelson6563 Nov 2013 #205
Which is worse? Opposing same-sex marriage MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #136
Is it one or the other for the Catholic Church?... SidDithers Nov 2013 #150
Do you support wealthy people who hoard wealth, MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #161
You mean like the Catholic Church has hoarded it's treasure for hundreds of years?... SidDithers Nov 2013 #163
Yes, like that. MannyGoldstein Nov 2013 #166
Lol, so true! n/t sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #148
+1000 Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #64
I imagine many people feel the visceral desire to equate the approval of a statement and glorifying LanternWaste Nov 2013 #53
Awwww....Sid has a sad. DisgustipatedinCA Nov 2013 #69
I'm constantly amazed by the alleged progressives that give cover to an homophobic, bigoted... SidDithers Nov 2013 #74
We are not giving cover to his homophobia, bigotry, or misogyny. yodermon Nov 2013 #80
I'm just the opposite... SidDithers Nov 2013 #82
So you do disagree with him taking on the greedy, destructive, money hoarders who collapsed the sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #199
"So you..." again... SidDithers Nov 2013 #201
This is not a matter of personality. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #119
Alleged? Who is making the allegation, MIRT-boi? DisgustipatedinCA Nov 2013 #121
... SidDithers Nov 2013 #164
+1 a whole bunch.......nt Enthusiast Nov 2013 #182
Still have that phobia about funny hats then? Riftaxe Nov 2013 #126
I didn't realize it was required that you read every single post rpannier Nov 2013 #185
Holy Cow and Holy Moly and Holy Pope ! pangaia Nov 2013 #22
It sounds like it's directly aimed at Reaganomics and all those Republican Catholics he views as sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #30
Now if only our 'elected democrats' would stand up and tell the truth. pangaia Nov 2013 #35
Yes. Democrats hardly mention that supply side has been an utter failure. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #183
lol! glinda Nov 2013 #157
Message alert for the Paul Ryans of this world Zambero Nov 2013 #23
Perhaps he will adhere to the anti choice and anit gay parts and call it a day? Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #43
This is actually quite interesting, seeing how people get sucked into religiosity snooper2 Nov 2013 #25
I doubt anyone will change their religion or non-religion based on what this Pope says. randome Nov 2013 #28
Did he empty all the church coffers and give that money to the poor? Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #29
I like what he is saying, but... devils chaplain Nov 2013 #32
K&R. I admire this Pope, it's exciting to see how he's changing the narrative. polly7 Nov 2013 #36
Those are his words, his actions are sitting atop billions in treasure and vast global holdings Bluenorthwest Nov 2013 #38
Holy Mowly! ReRe Nov 2013 #45
True Catholic theology is a lot less conservative than one might think. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2013 #46
Now that is the Church that I was brought up under. Bravo for Francis. glinda Nov 2013 #155
What's up? He continues to shelter tens of thousands of serial torturers and child rapists... Demo_Chris Nov 2013 #54
While this is encouraging MynameisBlarney Nov 2013 #56
Pope Frank just might be the awesomest pope in the history of popery paulkienitz Nov 2013 #59
Well, if Sarah Palin, Bill Donohue and Pat Buchanan were upset before... Rozlee Nov 2013 #60
Meh. Benedict made a similar speech(es), railing against "the scandal of glaring inequalities." SunSeeker Nov 2013 #62
Well said... SidDithers Nov 2013 #67
Agreed. And it'll be completely ignored by the apologists. eqfan592 Nov 2013 #129
I hate that he's making me listen to him graywarrior Nov 2013 #66
keep moving to the left, Pops.. Shankapotomus Nov 2013 #68
One good thing of this is that we need people in high places to challenge the morality of Capitalism AZ Progressive Nov 2013 #71
I agree with these points 100% :) grahamhgreen Nov 2013 #72
Supply side capitalist knew it wouldn't trickle down, there wasn't any doubt it wouldn't work as alfredo Nov 2013 #75
Fox News colbertforpresident Nov 2013 #79
Bill Donahue's head will splode. Enthusiast Nov 2013 #111
While I love the words he spoke. NCTraveler Nov 2013 #81
This Pope is a REAL Christian. The "Religious" Right will not be amused! JEFF9K Nov 2013 #83
An excellent wedge issue IMO Populist_Prole Nov 2013 #98
Indeed. He seems to be very much about things they don't believe in. calimary Nov 2013 #139
**** NCarolinawoman Nov 2013 #174
Oh? Do REAL Christians oppose LGBT equality? trotsky Nov 2013 #202
He is VA_Jill Nov 2013 #84
I like him shenmue Nov 2013 #89
It's hard for me to believe I'm Rec-ing a post about the POPE bread_and_roses Nov 2013 #90
Maybe he buys into the prophecy that he's the last pope crim son Nov 2013 #92
Thank you God! lark Nov 2013 #94
Keep on keeping on, Sir, and long life to you Hekate Nov 2013 #96
A moral blitskrieg PATRICK Nov 2013 #97
This Pope IS showing that Christianity does not equal Right Wing, and... AZ Progressive Nov 2013 #104
I'm loving this Pope! OnionPatch Nov 2013 #105
I Blame Obama! Or Van Jones. They turned Francis into a Commie! freshwest Nov 2013 #106
The Pope's views are only right Enthusiast Nov 2013 #107
If he keeps this sh*t up Caretha Nov 2013 #130
It's about time a Pope talked as if he cared about what Jesus would do! DrewFlorida Nov 2013 #141
How refreshing... He actually sounds very bright and grounded... madisongrace Nov 2013 #142
Sez again, I like that guy. Tigress DEM Nov 2013 #143
This IS Catholicism Gman Nov 2013 #145
+1 glinda Nov 2013 #156
I had no idea that a pope would ever criticize a capitalist for screwing the poor. SDjack Nov 2013 #152
He has sold his own stuff and donated the proceeds to the poor. sabrina 1 Nov 2013 #200
The use of the phrase "trickle down" is very striking. BlueCheese Nov 2013 #154
Agree. The use of "trickle down" was very telling and deliberate. NCarolinawoman Nov 2013 #167
perhaps he actually is trying to be a true christian lostincalifornia Nov 2013 #158
Cometh the hour, cometh the man... bhikkhu Nov 2013 #159
Finished reading most of it rpannier Nov 2013 #160
Breath of fresh air listening to this man. geomon666 Nov 2013 #168
Looks as if he's decided to live by "What would Jesus do," knowing that exclusion hurts the church. ancianita Nov 2013 #170
I am not Catholic but hopefully more religious leaders follow suit. appleannie1 Nov 2013 #171
Until,the next Pope. GeorgeGist Nov 2013 #176
Tithe must have dropped off XRubicon Nov 2013 #177
Yup. MichiganVote Nov 2013 #191
If he was to take on the name of Francis, then he has to live it and has decided to do so. mmonk Nov 2013 #180
Economic power is opposed to religious power mathematic Nov 2013 #184
Explain this Catholic Paul Ryan (I'm Catholic too) MRDAWG Nov 2013 #189
wow arely staircase Nov 2013 #194
He seems to be a true believer and close follower of Jesus' teachings tavalon Nov 2013 #195
Last pope said the same things. Funny that. NYC Liberal Nov 2013 #203
Apparently not elected by corporations moondust Nov 2013 #204
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