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In reply to the discussion: We need to teach our daughters to know the difference between: [View all]RainDog
(28,784 posts)51. A theory of this is about the origin of property
It was discredited because of its author, for a while (throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak), but recently has again gained currency because of its long-range view of the issue of property and equality and gender relations. This article is from a while back, but it's online and goes into some of the ideas.
http://www.isreview.org/issues/02/engles_family.shtml
HOW CAN we end womens oppression? This question can only be answered by posing yet another question: why are women oppressed? Unless we determine the source of womens oppression, we dont know who or what needs changing. This, the "woman question," has been a source of controversy for well over a century. Karl Marx and Frederick Engels located the origin of womens oppression in the rise of class society. Their analysis of womens oppression was not something that was tagged on as an afterthought to their analysis of class society but was integral to it from the very beginning. When Marx wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848, ideas of womens liberation were already a central part of revolutionary socialist theory...
...The theory put forward in The Origin is based largely upon the pioneering research of the nineteenth-century anthropologist Lewis Henry Morgan. Morgans research, published in 1877 in a 560-page volume called Ancient Society, was the first materialist attempt to understand the evolution of human social organization. He discovered, through extensive contact with the Iroquois Indians in upstate New York, a kinship system which took a completely different form than the modern nuclear family. Within it, the Iroquois lived in relative equality and women exercised a great deal of authority. This discovery inspired Morgan to study other societies, and, in so doing, he learned that other Native American societies located thousands of miles from the Iroquois used remarkably similar kinship structures. This led him to argue that human society had evolved through successive stages, based upon the development of the "successive arts of subsistence."3 While some of Morgans anthropological data is now outdated, a wealth of more recent anthropology has provided ample evidence to support his basic evolutionary framework.
...The theory put forward in The Origin is based largely upon the pioneering research of the nineteenth-century anthropologist Lewis Henry Morgan. Morgans research, published in 1877 in a 560-page volume called Ancient Society, was the first materialist attempt to understand the evolution of human social organization. He discovered, through extensive contact with the Iroquois Indians in upstate New York, a kinship system which took a completely different form than the modern nuclear family. Within it, the Iroquois lived in relative equality and women exercised a great deal of authority. This discovery inspired Morgan to study other societies, and, in so doing, he learned that other Native American societies located thousands of miles from the Iroquois used remarkably similar kinship structures. This led him to argue that human society had evolved through successive stages, based upon the development of the "successive arts of subsistence."3 While some of Morgans anthropological data is now outdated, a wealth of more recent anthropology has provided ample evidence to support his basic evolutionary framework.
Interestingly, some also argue that the Iroquois were as important as a model for American democracy as any of the western European intellectuals who are given credit for it. In Iroquois society, however, women were not second-class citizens and the Iroquois didn't hold slaves, so their contribution wasn't really given the credit it deserved, since the Constitution didn't include equality for all genders or races. The Iroquois and others had the "Great Treaty of Peace" for hundreds of years before any western nation had a similar constitutional framework. Women had the power to refuse to go to war because women controlled the food supply. They sat in tribal councils regarding the big issues. Benjamin Franklin wrote about the Iroquois in regard to forming the U.S. Constitution, tho, as well as others who were crucial to its construction. But that influence was disappeared along with the Native Americans who stood in the way of private property ownership for the founders.. including human property.
Likewise, Western observers have frequently brought along their own cultural biases (including, often, cultural chauvinism) when they study hunter-gatherer or horticultural societies. Customs are measured using a Western yardstick, rather than trying to understand the unique value system of a particular culture. For example, the common practice among Eskimo women of sleeping with male visitors is often interpreted as an example of Eskimo womens low statusof women offered up as gifts or property. Yet, this might or might not be true. As Leacock points out, this is an "ethnocentric reading which presumes that a woman does not (since she should not) enjoy sex play with any but her real husband and which refuses to recognize that variety in sexual relations is entertaining to women (where not circumscribed by all manner of taboos) as well as to men."9 In and of itself, this sexual custom tells little about womens status in Eskimo society today, when it is fairly integrated into the capitalist systemmuch less, what womens status has been historically.
Interestingly, also, Eskimos have sex much more publicly than western society finds comfortable, because they sleep and have sex together in the same spaces.
But, in its purest form, much of feminist theory rests upon no more than suppositionthe range of which is limited only by the imaginations of its authors. Depending upon who is doing the writing, men dominate women because they hold women in contempt for their ability to bear childrenor because they are jealous of womens ability to bear children. Men oppress women because long ago women formed a powerful matriarchy which was overthrownor because men have always been a tyrannical patriarchy. Gerda Lerner argues in her book, The Creation of Patriarchy, "Feminists, beginning with Simone de Beauvoir
[have explained womens oppression] as caused by either male biology or male psychology." She goes on to describe a sampling of feminist theories, all of which border on the outlandish:
Thus, Susan Brownmiller sees mans ability to rape women leading to their propensity to rape women and shows how this has led to male dominance over women and to male supremacy. Elizabeth Fisher ingeniously argued that the domestication of animals led men to the idea of raping women. She claimed that the brutalization and violence connected with animal domestication led to mens sexual dominance and institutionalized aggression. More recently, Mary OBrien built an elaborate explanation of The Origin of male dominance on mens psychological need to compensate for their inability to bear children through the construction of institutions of dominance and, like Fisher, dated this "discovery" in the period of the discovery of animal domestication.14
Anyway, it's a long article, and its impossible to excerpt the major points here - but the gist is that, by looking at how different societies have existed through different eras (hunter-gatherer, agricultural, etc.) it's possible to find the origin of oppression of women through the "ownership" of women by their husbands - which was law into the 20th century in the U.S. with laws that disallowed women to own property in their own names if they were married, etc.
edit to add - this view also sees marriage and prostitution as two co-existing relationships within societies. when female sexuality is "owned" by their husband through his control of assets that are passed to his children, prostitution is the flip side of the same coin.
so women get upset by what other women are doing and try to control their behavior and focus on that, to the exclusion of changing the economic position of all women - because of the fear that the women will lose their economic power by the loss of their mate.
that's where the statement you talked about comes into play, too.
someone did a recent study that looked at this issue in the form of women bonding together to attack other women who seemed to dress provocatively. that argument overlaps the early argument about the role of wife and prostitute as a social situation. But the study didn't have many participants and some don't like it for whatever reason.
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How is teaching girls to judge consider their self worth by male standards
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#68
Perhaps you should visit the site where this right wing propaganda comes from..
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#81
It's funny. I don't see much difference between what you've written and the OP
Number23
Dec 2013
#56
The bit that notes we should teach our sons to be those men of worth stands out to me
Number23
Dec 2013
#65
I agree. But the thing is that we all know there are lots of girls/women that don't have good
Number23
Dec 2013
#75
I am with you 1000% because a man cannot give a woman what we need to give ourselves
Number23
Dec 2013
#79
Never took you for a sucker for evangelical christianity... the source for the OP
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#63
Author Darlene Schacht encourages women to joyfully serve their families from a place of sacrificial
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#76
The sons part is harder, since there are so many competing sexist messages around them as they grow.
ancianita
Dec 2013
#25
Yes, I certainly see that; doesn't mean that it's not more true than not. Maybe you're talking about
ancianita
Dec 2013
#38
Got it. I heard it from a bright Gen X-er guy a while back, and thought it had usefulness. At least,
ancianita
Dec 2013
#43
Yep. Heard the cow one long after I'd had many, many lovers...I thought it was having babies that
ancianita
Dec 2013
#49
I see no origin of women's oppression here. Women just got shafted in original docs of both
ancianita
Dec 2013
#54
Okay, but efficiency isn't supposed to devalue either work, is it. It's easy for subsistence levels
ancianita
Dec 2013
#59
So, I conclude that, no matter what the system is, when men corner control of food or currency, they
ancianita
Dec 2013
#101
We need to teach our daughters to be strong women who don't need the acceptance of others
ScreamingMeemie
Dec 2013
#26
Cracking me up. You've recced an OP that celebrates advice from a right wing
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#80
Bullshit. We need to raise our daughters not to think how a man perceives her.
Luminous Animal
Dec 2013
#31
So, are you saying a father has no rights on how he perceives his young daughter?
sheshe2
Dec 2013
#127
Should we teach our sons to learn the difference between a woman who lusts after him,
Nye Bevan
Dec 2013
#45
i think you mean well, but this kind of reminds me of the purity balls of the right wing
JI7
Dec 2013
#48
It should remind you of fundamentalists, because it's fundamentalist. Here's where it came from:
LeftyMom
Dec 2013
#58
If I had a daughter I'd be teaching her not to define herself by what any man thinks of her.
Spider Jerusalem
Dec 2013
#50
just as a matter of curiosity, is there some reason you link to that site every time you respond
niyad
Dec 2013
#125
All of our kids should know the difference between gender equality and complementarianism,
LeftyMom
Dec 2013
#64
boy or girl, can't we just teach our children to not be shallow, vapid, superficial assholes
Nanjing to Seoul
Dec 2013
#88
"girls are not machines that you put kindness coins into until sex falls out"
AtheistCrusader
Dec 2013
#95
What? There were twists and it followed the Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale “The Snow Queen"
Baitball Blogger
Dec 2013
#114