General Discussion

CTyankee

(68,514 posts)

42. We need to say something about porn v. real eroticism...

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:31 AM

Dec 2013

Your point about porn (in the sense that I think you are talking about it) being boring is right on, esp. when you explore what women and men consider eroticism. It isn't a question of using sexually suggestive material v. none at all. There is a difference. Which is why some movie scenes that don't even contain nudity (but lots that do) can be enormous turn-ons for some women. Possibly the most erotic movie I ever saw was "Three Days of the Condor." The electricity in the lovemaking scenes with Redford and Dunaway was stunning. Ditto Redford and Streep in "Out of Africa." I think women and men coming together over what they find sexually stimulating is a miraculously wonderful and exciting experience. The men who know this are the best lovers, by FAR, IMO...

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Thank goodness for men who like sex [View all] BainsBane Dec 2013 OP

. Bonobo Dec 2013 #1

I hope you don't self-delete this. Bonobo Dec 2013 #2

I am so keeping the the poster's OP. It drips Freud. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #59

+one trillion! Puglover Dec 2013 #85

Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #129

Thank goodness for people who understand the true meaning of Christmas rrneck Dec 2013 #3

I for one have faith that the days will start getting longer again after the winter solstice Fumesucker Dec 2013 #5

I heard that. rrneck Dec 2013 #7

Heretic. n/t A HERETIC I AM Dec 2013 #19

Flattery will get you nowhere with me Fumesucker Dec 2013 #20

LOL A HERETIC I AM Dec 2013 #22

Yes, i can't wait... Deuce Dec 2013 #82

Heck yeah libodem Dec 2013 #4

Thank goodness there's porn Jamaal510 Dec 2013 #6

Thank goodness there's porn rrneck Dec 2013 #9

you got some 'spalin to do Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #11

On the I Love Lucy show rrneck Dec 2013 #12

Maybe one of the couple 'hogs' the covers? Fla_Democrat Dec 2013 #26

Never underestimate the power of Rule 34. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #138

I don't think you're applying Rule 34 correctly. MillennialDem Dec 2013 #183

I'm not sure there's a wrong way. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #207

There are no exceptions... Decaffeinated Dec 2013 #320

and somehow -- Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #120

Yep. rrneck Dec 2013 #136

Post removed Post removed Dec 2013 #137

I don't enjoy rape porn, so watch your mouth. rrneck Dec 2013 #141

oh, really. big bad old white man telling me what to do? really? laughable. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #153

I, on the other hand, am not. rrneck Dec 2013 #162

you survived a DU jury! Scout Dec 2013 #173

She didn't survive the other one though. n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #178

That horseshit should have been hidden. HappyMe Dec 2013 #182

jurors disagreed :shrug: Scout Dec 2013 #184

No, it doesn't suck. HappyMe Dec 2013 #188

Good. rrneck Dec 2013 #186

Daddy issues. nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #277

Good one. xulamaude Dec 2013 #280

Very glad to see this. Yay jurors! polly7 Dec 2013 #174

These are disgusting accusations tantamount to slut shaming without any evidence at all. stevenleser Dec 2013 #176

I agree, Steven. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #225

The post was out of line rrneck Dec 2013 #179

I agree there's a need for honest discussion. polly7 Dec 2013 #185

Porn is and industry like any other rrneck Dec 2013 #193

Yes, they do deserve to have the same safeguards as any other industry. polly7 Dec 2013 #198

Diligent reporting is a fine idea rrneck Dec 2013 #205

Good job jury. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #301

I remember that the Flintstones slept in twin beds too and the Bradys slept together. SummerSnow Dec 2013 #261

Fred Flintstone was a complete bastard. pintobean Dec 2013 #266

The good thing about masturbation... CanSocDem Dec 2013 #109

I like the joke about the psychiatrist asking the guy what kind of sex he liked best and the guy CTyankee Dec 2013 #125

This message was self-deleted by its author CTyankee Dec 2013 #126

Um, thanks, I guess. bluedigger Dec 2013 #8

Until the day all heterosexual males have such a woman present in their lives NickB79 Dec 2013 #10

hard for me to tell hfojvt Dec 2013 #13

Divisive OP. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #14

Thank goodness there is no longer a Meta forum... pacalo Dec 2013 #15

Thanks, unrec Illinoischick Dec 2013 #16

Welcome to DU 3! Fumesucker Dec 2013 #17

A recent survey found 90% of men look at porn Kurska Dec 2013 #18

I look at it as the difference between, say, a meaningful philosophical conversation, and Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #21

Funny how they are only meaningless and repetitive BainsBane Dec 2013 #23

Takes two to tango Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #24

Depends on if there's a camera involved Major Nikon Dec 2013 #208

DU is a hook-up site now? pintobean Dec 2013 #25

... In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #117

I love my wife with all my heart Revanchist Dec 2013 #27

Thank goodness for women who like sex Bonobo Dec 2013 #28

thank goodness for people who like making said porn as well loli phabay Dec 2013 #29

The two aren't mutually exclusive Blue_Adept Dec 2013 #30

I suppose you share that interest with many men who fantasize about sex HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #31

Is there some prequel thread to this I'm missing? Because I'm not getting it... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #32

I'm afraid the prequel was three margaritas BainsBane Dec 2013 #227

sex with men who aren't porn obsessed is soooo much more fun zazen Dec 2013 #33

Do you think that list of faults is true for women who like porn and gay men who like porn too? nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #35

possibly--I'd never claim to speak for that demographic zazen Dec 2013 #37

What's the cutoff line between guys who like watching porn and porn-obsessed guys? Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #36

I don't know, except we tolerate nuance all the time with other matters zazen Dec 2013 #41

We need to say something about porn v. real eroticism... CTyankee Dec 2013 #42

absolutely--I just haven't had time to jump into these threads zazen Dec 2013 #48

Some folks here will be surprised to learn that I am not as much interested in regulating porn as CTyankee Dec 2013 #58

good point--_Up in the Air_ conveyed exactly that zazen Dec 2013 #65

That movie was terrific. The sex in it was great! CTyankee Dec 2013 #72

+100 nt Mojorabbit Dec 2013 #55

Yes, women are much more discriminating about the difference between porn and erotica... rrneck Dec 2013 #168

Exactly ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #211

I saw something once BainsBane Dec 2013 #243

Change the word porn with baseball Blue_Adept Dec 2013 #45

Sex with women who do not use vibrators is so much more fun too. Bonobo Dec 2013 #71

What about cucumbers? nt riqster Dec 2013 #79

same trance; fewer bags under their eyes Schema Thing Dec 2013 #90

LOLOLOL libodem Dec 2013 #181

DUzys were invented for posts like this! 11 Bravo Dec 2013 #218

/spit take LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #221

Winner!! westerebus Dec 2013 #255

suppose that far away look relates to the 69% of women who regularly fantasize HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #89

Thanks for the yesphan Dec 2013 #231

Wow, what a coincidence. rrneck Dec 2013 #147

+++ Whisp Dec 2013 #220

I think porn is like any other fantasy, if you indulge too much, it does detract from real life. alarimer Dec 2013 #237

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. HappyMe Dec 2013 #34

You're obsessed Renew Deal Dec 2013 #38

+10^10^100 nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #44

Yep. 99Forever Dec 2013 #54

We're being trolled Renew Deal Dec 2013 #87

No shit. pintobean Dec 2013 #156

What do you have against sex? BainsBane Dec 2013 #86

Funny that the only post you chose to respond to is mine Renew Deal Dec 2013 #88

LOL BainsBane Dec 2013 #199

sex is all just a joke- snooper2 Dec 2013 #100

I heard it like this... Whiskeytide Dec 2013 #106

+1 There is no other explanation. idwiyo Dec 2013 #134

Thank goodness for women who aren't judgmental about the sex lives of others.. Upton Dec 2013 #39

Thank goodness for women who like real sex and not just "Fifty Shades of Grey" (nt) Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #40

and for people who like real literature and not adolescentish journal scribblings zazen Dec 2013 #43

Because of course, it's not possible HappyMe Dec 2013 #51

just FYI, the person you're projecting here doesn't exist zazen Dec 2013 #60

Hey! Spoiler alert next time! Orrex Dec 2013 #62

Just FYI, I NEVER said that criticism HappyMe Dec 2013 #64

I didn't read it based on reviews ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #217

Read Laurell Hamilton's "Anita Blake" series Seeking Serenity Dec 2013 #256

i haven't found anyone who enjoys austen, shakespeare, dickens that also liked fifty shades JI7 Dec 2013 #236

To be honest, that does strain credulity a bit. nt Codeine Dec 2013 #294

Definitely, and while we're at it BainsBane Dec 2013 #246

Oh good, another porn thread. Because the two sides haven't talked past each other enough. stevenleser Dec 2013 #46

Thank goodness for the noble guardians of Our Moral Purity Orrex Dec 2013 #47

I cannot for the life of me understand how you get THAT out of BainsBain's post. CTyankee Dec 2013 #50

He obviously pintobean Dec 2013 #52

I can quit any time I want. Orrex Dec 2013 #57

sorry but you cant, you have an addiction that is effecting your brainwaves loli phabay Dec 2013 #113

While you clearly have BainsBane Dec 2013 #233

They insist not liking porn (and rape porn in particular) is about not liking sex BainsBane Dec 2013 #235

Thank You. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #251

The conversation you're having might indeed be fascinating to you BainsBane Dec 2013 #288

Sounds like you found a perfect partner for yourself maddezmom Dec 2013 #49

No Access To Physical Sex For Twenty Years - Porn Is The Only Alternative cantbeserious Dec 2013 #53

Whats wrong with porn? darkangel218 Dec 2013 #56

Erotic art and literature has always and will always be part of our lives, I agree, hooray! CTyankee Dec 2013 #61

That's not possible. You either must be brainwashed or are deliberately helping exploit women. stevenleser Dec 2013 #83

OMG!!1 You're part of the problem!!11 HappyMe Dec 2013 #94

Sometimes I enjoy choosing what we'll be watching. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #118

the thread title would have been better without the following add on loli phabay Dec 2013 #63

I think the OP: was using porn in a narrow sense, given the topic of the last fews days here. CTyankee Dec 2013 #68

i agree and disagree. what works for you works for you, some people want love, respect etc etc in se loli phabay Dec 2013 #73

No, it isn't that I feel somebody "shouldn't" feel the way they feel sexually. CTyankee Dec 2013 #76

i was not saying that itbwas you saying that, sorry if thats what you thought loli phabay Dec 2013 #78

Well, firstly most of my critique has been based on the treatment of workers BainsBane Dec 2013 #247

you know that a substantial amount of porn is not done by workers nowadays or have you missed loli phabay Dec 2013 #249

It isn't my business BainsBane Dec 2013 #250

OP wrote men who like sex with women (note: plural) that's not gonna be a monogamous HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #69

lol, i never caught that but your right, loli phabay Dec 2013 #70

Not hard to understand the grammar: plural men and plural women. CTyankee Dec 2013 #74

Actually it's ambiguous, one of the many wonders of English. HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #75

To me, it is not, it is merely grammatically correct. CTyankee Dec 2013 #84

We disagree HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #95

When is "men" singular? CTyankee Dec 2013 #98

In your interpretation of the OP, how many women does each of the men love? Orrex Dec 2013 #102

I think it just makes sense the way it is used here. CTyankee Dec 2013 #107

Allow me to illustrate with simpler sentences HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #105

Those perverts. Orrex Dec 2013 #110

For running races? I suppose that depends on the type of men HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #112

I intended it exactly as CTYankee says BainsBane Dec 2013 #244

What did I tell you, folks! Occam's Razor! CTyankee Dec 2013 #296

Now that -is- funny. HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #299

No dark intent? CTyankee Dec 2013 #300

Too bad men and women pipoman Dec 2013 #66

Do you recall the MASH episode where Hawkeye falls for the Swedish doctor, Inga, and he CTyankee Dec 2013 #91

Alda, a self-hater who came up with the phrase "testosterone-poisoning". Bonobo Dec 2013 #93

He was anti-war, that is true, and he felt that male testosterone played a role in war making. CTyankee Dec 2013 #97

So what? Bonobo Dec 2013 #101

context is everything. He was making a strong, political statement about the effects of testosterone CTyankee Dec 2013 #103

Would that be feminist porn? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #214

Hawkeye's discomfort isn't very stimulating...except you feel sorry for him, but she is very CTyankee Dec 2013 #215

Sure. rrneck Dec 2013 #216

no harm in a little sex fantasy now and then either... CTyankee Dec 2013 #224

Absolutely. rrneck Dec 2013 #232

Ain't nothing better than the real thing. Rex Dec 2013 #67

Thank goodness for men who like sex with women who also like sex. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #77

i would say thank goodness for people who love sex in all its connotations. loli phabay Dec 2013 #80

As long as everyone is enjoying themselves ... yup. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #104

Dr. Ruth was tryin' to tell us that! CTyankee Dec 2013 #108

Apparently Dr Ruth's advice was correct. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #114

Yes, lets be especially thankful for that. BainsBane Dec 2013 #245

If given the choice The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #81

That might depend on who the woman is pintobean Dec 2013 #92

or the guy, loli phabay Dec 2013 #116

Well yeah The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #196

some don't BainsBane Dec 2013 #226

Thank goodness for people who like to thank goodness Orrex Dec 2013 #96

! +1 In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #115

It's the season for giving Thanks! BainsBane Dec 2013 #228

Thank goodness for "trash this thread." PowerToThePeople Dec 2013 #99

+1 Agschmid Dec 2013 #111

AND for "Ignore This User." cleanhippie Dec 2013 #122

"As BainsBane was told by someone else" xulamaude Dec 2013 #145

It's all about priorities! Avalux Dec 2013 #119

omg your right, when we get sexbots will either sex ever talk to each other again loli phabay Dec 2013 #123

You're way late to the robot sex party LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #223

Your ego still badly bruised? Still trying to soothe it? cleanhippie Dec 2013 #121

sex with good woman is great Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #124

I know I certainly do! n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #127

For the life of me, I can't see how the OP's post is so terrible... CTyankee Dec 2013 #131

Call me strange; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #139

Playing games where you imply we all can't remember someone's past posts on a subject wont help stevenleser Dec 2013 #142

why not address the point she is making... CTyankee Dec 2013 #149

Affirm the manipulative game playing going on here? No thanks. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #151

you see a manipulative game and I see an opportunity to discuss an idea that can very CTyankee Dec 2013 #155

Nope, not with the poster's history. Pretending we don't all know this won't help. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #158

But, it doesn't stand on it's own. pintobean Dec 2013 #163

I think we should start charging for these OPs Prism Dec 2013 #128

This temper tantrum still going on? Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #130

Jeez BainsBane Dec 2013 #239

I'd like to chime in... KansDem Dec 2013 #132

Shaming never works Harmony Blue Dec 2013 #133

Let's hear it for joyful sex between caring men and women! CTyankee Dec 2013 #135

"Some people's bitterness here is very, very sad." Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #140

Of course not. The OP is making a very life and sex affirming statement. CTyankee Dec 2013 #146

No, they are not. Not when you consider the totality of the person's posts on the subject. stevenleser Dec 2013 #150

rather, lets hear it for sex between any consenting adults regardless of the sex of the loli phabay Dec 2013 #143

Baaaaaaah. dipsydoodle Dec 2013 #229

remember baaaaaaah always means no. loli phabay Dec 2013 #230

Pretty weird to assume anyone who watches porn doesn't have a polly7 Dec 2013 #148

All anti-porn arguments are similarly flawed. All porn=hetero, all fans dont have a partner, etc. stevenleser Dec 2013 #152

I think it's all just hypocritical, holier-than-thou bullshit. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #160

i so love you, you are dead on loli phabay Dec 2013 #167

Aww .... polly7 Dec 2013 #172

i look at it this way, i frequent other boards where there are thousands of women into porn loli phabay Dec 2013 #175

Here I am! HappyMe Dec 2013 #180

I couldn't be among better company! polly7 Dec 2013 #187

Aw...thanks. HappyMe Dec 2013 #189

I think that I did address erotica in a couple of posts in this thread... CTyankee Dec 2013 #154

You didn't answer my questions re: women who choose to watch porn, polly7 Dec 2013 #159

I don't stick my nose into other prople's business, if that is what you are driving at. CTyankee Dec 2013 #190

you forget that whats porn to you is erotica to others, its subjective to each individual. loli phabay Dec 2013 #161

and you don't know what I deem porn and what I deem erotica. CTyankee Dec 2013 #192

way to miss the whole point of my post. loli phabay Dec 2013 #194

I was kinda agreeing with you, actually. CTyankee Dec 2013 #200

lol, way for me to miss the point of your post, mea culpa loli phabay Dec 2013 #203

I didn't get that at all from the OP about victimhood R B Garr Dec 2013 #191

we watch a soft porn channel on Sunday mornings while hubby is doing his exercises and I'm CTyankee Dec 2013 #195

lol, yeah I've started the ridiculous screaming and moaning like they do just to make a point R B Garr Dec 2013 #210

they do get some nice looking actors but the funny positions they get into to "simulate" CTyankee Dec 2013 #213

oh, dear, polly, who are these porn people you talk about...this stuff really scares me...I hope you CTyankee Dec 2013 #257

No worries here. polly7 Dec 2013 #260

The OP wasn't "porn shaming" women or at least I didn't hear it that way. ... CTyankee Dec 2013 #262

Well I'm not stupid enough to believe only men watch and enjoy porn, polly7 Dec 2013 #264

Oh, my goodness! That sounds awful. All these DU feminist folk doing this stuff! CTyankee Dec 2013 #265

WTF are you going on about polly7 Dec 2013 #272

I'm okay but there is such a thing as "in vino, veritas", in case you haven't heard of it... CTyankee Dec 2013 #273

Truth .... or bullshit. I've worked in plenty of bars and seen polly7 Dec 2013 #275

I really don't think she's your enemy...really I don't. I don't hear anything that alarms me as a CTyankee Dec 2013 #278

I really don't care if she is or not. polly7 Dec 2013 #279

Well, in the sense that I don't think it is flame-bait, it does. Otherwise, personally, it does not. CTyankee Dec 2013 #281

Don't care why she did it. And her statement was crap. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #283

OH, dear god, men loving women who are living, breathing and orgasmic? Dear god... CTyankee Dec 2013 #286

Sounds like you might need one. polly7 Dec 2013 #289

Now I'm clutching my pearls! Aaargh! CTyankee Dec 2013 #297

Whatever turns your crank. polly7 Dec 2013 #303

Aw, c'mon, let's all lighten up, OK? CTyankee Dec 2013 #304

Absolutely! polly7 Dec 2013 #307

I hear ya. It's cold in CT tonight... CTyankee Dec 2013 #308

It's actually only -29C here with the wind chill factor, polly7 Dec 2013 #310

Oy. Hoping that we don't get that here...are you in the midwest? CTyankee Dec 2013 #311

I'm in southeast Saskatchewan. We've had it great so far, polly7 Dec 2013 #312

lordy, I'm here in CT. I wish you well there! CTyankee Dec 2013 #314

You too! My sister visited CT once in the fall, she said it was so gorgeous. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #315

well, there are some very nice parts and thanks! CTyankee Dec 2013 #317

Men and men allowed in your world? HERVEPA Dec 2013 #252

Absolutely not! All sexuality in their forms, welcome! WE love you... CTyankee Dec 2013 #267

people can like sex with others + porn. its hardly an either/or situation. nt La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2013 #144

Maybe for a 3rd waver Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #157

Oh boy, now you've done it. You mentioned the unmentionable "3rd wave feminism" stevenleser Dec 2013 #164

if there's video out there of "sex with real breathing, living, orgasmic women" pls let me know kthx yodermon Dec 2013 #165

Lol. Very well done. pintobean Dec 2013 #166

don't you think some people video themselves having sex? CTyankee Dec 2013 #202

I, too, would be interested in information about such a video. EOTE Dec 2013 #305

Thank goodness adults can choose if they want to watch porn. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #169

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #170

Most men like sex with women. MicaelS Dec 2013 #171

i would say most humans enjoy sex, who am i to interfere in what that sex entails loli phabay Dec 2013 #177

well, I think feminist complaints regarding viagra has to do with insurance policies that won't CTyankee Dec 2013 #204

Ya'll can flame anything. BainsBane Dec 2013 #197

Flame bait usually attracts flames pintobean Dec 2013 #201

At this point, this is looking like pure flamebait. MadrasT Dec 2013 #206

You are a marvel of understatement. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #212

"at this point" "looking" Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #219

Around 14 months ago. /nt pintobean Dec 2013 #222

Calling it flame bait is being nice. Hissyspit Dec 2013 #241

She must be proud pintobean Dec 2013 #242

So uh... why not both? Jester Messiah Dec 2013 #209

Apparently that isn't possible BainsBane Dec 2013 #240

For me it's "both/and" instead of "either/or" Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #234

The OP says "better than" BainsBane Dec 2013 #248

I see nothing wrong with your original formulation of your OP.... CTyankee Dec 2013 #253

Oh, for fuck's sake... Hissyspit Dec 2013 #238

well, Oh for ffs, ...what...? CTyankee Dec 2013 #254

Hunh? Hissyspit Dec 2013 #258

Of course it is massively complex. I never said it wasn't! CTyankee Dec 2013 #259

The original post IS a "crap-on." Hissyspit Dec 2013 #268

Because I don't think it is a "crap-on"! I take it at its face value. CTyankee Dec 2013 #269

It's not necessarily a good idea to take things on the Internet at face value. Hissyspit Dec 2013 #270

Not always, but here I think the OP was right and I was happy to hear it. CTyankee Dec 2013 #271

Those whose sexual behavior and situation fits the OP's Hissyspit Dec 2013 #274

I don't get what is not better than a joyfully accepting sexuality with human beings... CTyankee Dec 2013 #276

The thing is that it was a passive aggressive revenge swing. Bonobo Dec 2013 #285

AHA! ZEE garotte! CTyankee Dec 2013 #287

"insulting to humans" BainsBane Dec 2013 #290

Look. Bonobo Dec 2013 #293

I suspect there will be at least one whiner to complain in ATA about how mean you have been to them CTyankee Dec 2013 #298

So now expressing one's fondness for sex is appropriate fodder for GD OPs? EOTE Dec 2013 #306

Also, check out #226. /nt pintobean Dec 2013 #263

What's wrong with that? BainsBane Dec 2013 #291

I like sex. RandySF Dec 2013 #282

Hey, Randy, where you been? You're late to the prom, man... CTyankee Dec 2013 #284

Porn is like alcohol and religion. edbermac Dec 2013 #292

Can I trade religion for more booze? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #295

this isn't either/or, it is both/and FatBuddy Dec 2013 #302

I like the Sufi poet Rumi... CTyankee Dec 2013 #313

That is beautiful FatBuddy Dec 2013 #319

His writings are wonderful. I had the pleasure of a grad school course that included him very CTyankee Dec 2013 #321

Oh for Christ's sake, can't we just get back to Coyotl Dec 2013 #309

So why did you kick the thread? BainsBane Dec 2013 #316

Can't we just all get along mstinamotorcity2 Dec 2013 #318