General Discussion

zazen

(2,978 posts)

48. absolutely--I just haven't had time to jump into these threads

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:41 AM

Dec 2013

but you're right. And there really is legal backup for regulating pornography (not obscenity) and protecting erotic art. There were so many debates about this in the 80s and some sound legal arguments in the late 80s about how to amend the proposed Minneapolis legislation to be less broad.

I felt then and do now that had MacKinnon/Dworkin backed down a bit and allowed the three-pronged intellectual/artistic/political value as determined by a reasonable person argument to be built into the legislation, it might have been upheld. And the legislation was for civil remedies anyway.

Hitting the pornographers in their pocketbooks was a wise approach and the intent of the law, but they allowed ideological purity to trump the possible. I can't imagine how many adolescents' sexualities wouldn't have been twisted by this hateful gonzo pornography had this legislation been in effect before the advent of global internet usage. If the profit motive had been tamed a bit, perhaps they wouldn't have been so brazen. Don't know if it would have saved lives in countries without the regulations, but it might have made our pornographers more aggressive in shaming those places that could make gonzo without restraint.

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Thank goodness for men who like sex [View all] BainsBane Dec 2013 OP

. Bonobo Dec 2013 #1

I hope you don't self-delete this. Bonobo Dec 2013 #2

I am so keeping the the poster's OP. It drips Freud. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #59

+one trillion! Puglover Dec 2013 #85

Wow ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #129

Thank goodness for people who understand the true meaning of Christmas rrneck Dec 2013 #3

I for one have faith that the days will start getting longer again after the winter solstice Fumesucker Dec 2013 #5

I heard that. rrneck Dec 2013 #7

Heretic. n/t A HERETIC I AM Dec 2013 #19

Flattery will get you nowhere with me Fumesucker Dec 2013 #20

LOL A HERETIC I AM Dec 2013 #22

Yes, i can't wait... Deuce Dec 2013 #82

Heck yeah libodem Dec 2013 #4

Thank goodness there's porn Jamaal510 Dec 2013 #6

Thank goodness there's porn rrneck Dec 2013 #9

you got some 'spalin to do Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #11

On the I Love Lucy show rrneck Dec 2013 #12

Maybe one of the couple 'hogs' the covers? Fla_Democrat Dec 2013 #26

Never underestimate the power of Rule 34. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #138

I don't think you're applying Rule 34 correctly. MillennialDem Dec 2013 #183

I'm not sure there's a wrong way. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #207

There are no exceptions... Decaffeinated Dec 2013 #320

and somehow -- Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #120

Yep. rrneck Dec 2013 #136

Post removed Post removed Dec 2013 #137

I don't enjoy rape porn, so watch your mouth. rrneck Dec 2013 #141

oh, really. big bad old white man telling me what to do? really? laughable. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #153

I, on the other hand, am not. rrneck Dec 2013 #162

you survived a DU jury! Scout Dec 2013 #173

She didn't survive the other one though. n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #178

That horseshit should have been hidden. HappyMe Dec 2013 #182

jurors disagreed :shrug: Scout Dec 2013 #184

No, it doesn't suck. HappyMe Dec 2013 #188

Good. rrneck Dec 2013 #186

Daddy issues. nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #277

Good one. xulamaude Dec 2013 #280

Very glad to see this. Yay jurors! polly7 Dec 2013 #174

These are disgusting accusations tantamount to slut shaming without any evidence at all. stevenleser Dec 2013 #176

I agree, Steven. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #225

The post was out of line rrneck Dec 2013 #179

I agree there's a need for honest discussion. polly7 Dec 2013 #185

Porn is and industry like any other rrneck Dec 2013 #193

Yes, they do deserve to have the same safeguards as any other industry. polly7 Dec 2013 #198

Diligent reporting is a fine idea rrneck Dec 2013 #205

Good job jury. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #301

I remember that the Flintstones slept in twin beds too and the Bradys slept together. SummerSnow Dec 2013 #261

Fred Flintstone was a complete bastard. pintobean Dec 2013 #266

The good thing about masturbation... CanSocDem Dec 2013 #109

I like the joke about the psychiatrist asking the guy what kind of sex he liked best and the guy CTyankee Dec 2013 #125

This message was self-deleted by its author CTyankee Dec 2013 #126

Um, thanks, I guess. bluedigger Dec 2013 #8

Until the day all heterosexual males have such a woman present in their lives NickB79 Dec 2013 #10

hard for me to tell hfojvt Dec 2013 #13

Divisive OP. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #14

Thank goodness there is no longer a Meta forum... pacalo Dec 2013 #15

Thanks, unrec Illinoischick Dec 2013 #16

Welcome to DU 3! Fumesucker Dec 2013 #17

A recent survey found 90% of men look at porn Kurska Dec 2013 #18

I look at it as the difference between, say, a meaningful philosophical conversation, and Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #21

Funny how they are only meaningless and repetitive BainsBane Dec 2013 #23

Takes two to tango Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #24

Depends on if there's a camera involved Major Nikon Dec 2013 #208

DU is a hook-up site now? pintobean Dec 2013 #25

... In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #117

I love my wife with all my heart Revanchist Dec 2013 #27

Thank goodness for women who like sex Bonobo Dec 2013 #28

thank goodness for people who like making said porn as well loli phabay Dec 2013 #29

The two aren't mutually exclusive Blue_Adept Dec 2013 #30

I suppose you share that interest with many men who fantasize about sex HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #31

Is there some prequel thread to this I'm missing? Because I'm not getting it... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #32

I'm afraid the prequel was three margaritas BainsBane Dec 2013 #227

sex with men who aren't porn obsessed is soooo much more fun zazen Dec 2013 #33

Do you think that list of faults is true for women who like porn and gay men who like porn too? nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #35

possibly--I'd never claim to speak for that demographic zazen Dec 2013 #37

What's the cutoff line between guys who like watching porn and porn-obsessed guys? Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #36

I don't know, except we tolerate nuance all the time with other matters zazen Dec 2013 #41

We need to say something about porn v. real eroticism... CTyankee Dec 2013 #42

absolutely--I just haven't had time to jump into these threads zazen Dec 2013 #48

Some folks here will be surprised to learn that I am not as much interested in regulating porn as CTyankee Dec 2013 #58

good point--_Up in the Air_ conveyed exactly that zazen Dec 2013 #65

That movie was terrific. The sex in it was great! CTyankee Dec 2013 #72

+100 nt Mojorabbit Dec 2013 #55

Yes, women are much more discriminating about the difference between porn and erotica... rrneck Dec 2013 #168

Exactly ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #211

I saw something once BainsBane Dec 2013 #243

Change the word porn with baseball Blue_Adept Dec 2013 #45

Sex with women who do not use vibrators is so much more fun too. Bonobo Dec 2013 #71

What about cucumbers? nt riqster Dec 2013 #79

same trance; fewer bags under their eyes Schema Thing Dec 2013 #90

LOLOLOL libodem Dec 2013 #181

DUzys were invented for posts like this! 11 Bravo Dec 2013 #218

/spit take LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #221

Winner!! westerebus Dec 2013 #255

suppose that far away look relates to the 69% of women who regularly fantasize HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #89

Thanks for the yesphan Dec 2013 #231

Wow, what a coincidence. rrneck Dec 2013 #147

+++ Whisp Dec 2013 #220

I think porn is like any other fantasy, if you indulge too much, it does detract from real life. alarimer Dec 2013 #237

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. HappyMe Dec 2013 #34

You're obsessed Renew Deal Dec 2013 #38

+10^10^100 nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #44

Yep. 99Forever Dec 2013 #54

We're being trolled Renew Deal Dec 2013 #87

No shit. pintobean Dec 2013 #156

What do you have against sex? BainsBane Dec 2013 #86

Funny that the only post you chose to respond to is mine Renew Deal Dec 2013 #88

LOL BainsBane Dec 2013 #199

sex is all just a joke- snooper2 Dec 2013 #100

I heard it like this... Whiskeytide Dec 2013 #106

+1 There is no other explanation. idwiyo Dec 2013 #134

Thank goodness for women who aren't judgmental about the sex lives of others.. Upton Dec 2013 #39

Thank goodness for women who like real sex and not just "Fifty Shades of Grey" (nt) Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #40

and for people who like real literature and not adolescentish journal scribblings zazen Dec 2013 #43

Because of course, it's not possible HappyMe Dec 2013 #51

just FYI, the person you're projecting here doesn't exist zazen Dec 2013 #60

Hey! Spoiler alert next time! Orrex Dec 2013 #62

Just FYI, I NEVER said that criticism HappyMe Dec 2013 #64

I didn't read it based on reviews ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #217

Read Laurell Hamilton's "Anita Blake" series Seeking Serenity Dec 2013 #256

i haven't found anyone who enjoys austen, shakespeare, dickens that also liked fifty shades JI7 Dec 2013 #236

To be honest, that does strain credulity a bit. nt Codeine Dec 2013 #294

Definitely, and while we're at it BainsBane Dec 2013 #246

Oh good, another porn thread. Because the two sides haven't talked past each other enough. stevenleser Dec 2013 #46

Thank goodness for the noble guardians of Our Moral Purity Orrex Dec 2013 #47

I cannot for the life of me understand how you get THAT out of BainsBain's post. CTyankee Dec 2013 #50

He obviously pintobean Dec 2013 #52

I can quit any time I want. Orrex Dec 2013 #57

sorry but you cant, you have an addiction that is effecting your brainwaves loli phabay Dec 2013 #113

While you clearly have BainsBane Dec 2013 #233

They insist not liking porn (and rape porn in particular) is about not liking sex BainsBane Dec 2013 #235

Thank You. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #251

The conversation you're having might indeed be fascinating to you BainsBane Dec 2013 #288

Sounds like you found a perfect partner for yourself maddezmom Dec 2013 #49

No Access To Physical Sex For Twenty Years - Porn Is The Only Alternative cantbeserious Dec 2013 #53

Whats wrong with porn? darkangel218 Dec 2013 #56

Erotic art and literature has always and will always be part of our lives, I agree, hooray! CTyankee Dec 2013 #61

That's not possible. You either must be brainwashed or are deliberately helping exploit women. stevenleser Dec 2013 #83

OMG!!1 You're part of the problem!!11 HappyMe Dec 2013 #94

Sometimes I enjoy choosing what we'll be watching. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #118

the thread title would have been better without the following add on loli phabay Dec 2013 #63

I think the OP: was using porn in a narrow sense, given the topic of the last fews days here. CTyankee Dec 2013 #68

i agree and disagree. what works for you works for you, some people want love, respect etc etc in se loli phabay Dec 2013 #73

No, it isn't that I feel somebody "shouldn't" feel the way they feel sexually. CTyankee Dec 2013 #76

i was not saying that itbwas you saying that, sorry if thats what you thought loli phabay Dec 2013 #78

Well, firstly most of my critique has been based on the treatment of workers BainsBane Dec 2013 #247

you know that a substantial amount of porn is not done by workers nowadays or have you missed loli phabay Dec 2013 #249

It isn't my business BainsBane Dec 2013 #250

OP wrote men who like sex with women (note: plural) that's not gonna be a monogamous HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #69

lol, i never caught that but your right, loli phabay Dec 2013 #70

Not hard to understand the grammar: plural men and plural women. CTyankee Dec 2013 #74

Actually it's ambiguous, one of the many wonders of English. HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #75

To me, it is not, it is merely grammatically correct. CTyankee Dec 2013 #84

We disagree HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #95

When is "men" singular? CTyankee Dec 2013 #98

In your interpretation of the OP, how many women does each of the men love? Orrex Dec 2013 #102

I think it just makes sense the way it is used here. CTyankee Dec 2013 #107

Allow me to illustrate with simpler sentences HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #105

Those perverts. Orrex Dec 2013 #110

For running races? I suppose that depends on the type of men HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #112

I intended it exactly as CTYankee says BainsBane Dec 2013 #244

What did I tell you, folks! Occam's Razor! CTyankee Dec 2013 #296

Now that -is- funny. HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #299

No dark intent? CTyankee Dec 2013 #300

Too bad men and women pipoman Dec 2013 #66

Do you recall the MASH episode where Hawkeye falls for the Swedish doctor, Inga, and he CTyankee Dec 2013 #91

Alda, a self-hater who came up with the phrase "testosterone-poisoning". Bonobo Dec 2013 #93

He was anti-war, that is true, and he felt that male testosterone played a role in war making. CTyankee Dec 2013 #97

So what? Bonobo Dec 2013 #101

context is everything. He was making a strong, political statement about the effects of testosterone CTyankee Dec 2013 #103

Would that be feminist porn? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #214

Hawkeye's discomfort isn't very stimulating...except you feel sorry for him, but she is very CTyankee Dec 2013 #215

Sure. rrneck Dec 2013 #216

no harm in a little sex fantasy now and then either... CTyankee Dec 2013 #224

Absolutely. rrneck Dec 2013 #232

Ain't nothing better than the real thing. Rex Dec 2013 #67

Thank goodness for men who like sex with women who also like sex. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #77

i would say thank goodness for people who love sex in all its connotations. loli phabay Dec 2013 #80

As long as everyone is enjoying themselves ... yup. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #104

Dr. Ruth was tryin' to tell us that! CTyankee Dec 2013 #108

Apparently Dr Ruth's advice was correct. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #114

Yes, lets be especially thankful for that. BainsBane Dec 2013 #245

If given the choice The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #81

That might depend on who the woman is pintobean Dec 2013 #92

or the guy, loli phabay Dec 2013 #116

Well yeah The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #196

some don't BainsBane Dec 2013 #226

Thank goodness for people who like to thank goodness Orrex Dec 2013 #96

! +1 In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #115

It's the season for giving Thanks! BainsBane Dec 2013 #228

Thank goodness for "trash this thread." PowerToThePeople Dec 2013 #99

+1 Agschmid Dec 2013 #111

AND for "Ignore This User." cleanhippie Dec 2013 #122

"As BainsBane was told by someone else" xulamaude Dec 2013 #145

It's all about priorities! Avalux Dec 2013 #119

omg your right, when we get sexbots will either sex ever talk to each other again loli phabay Dec 2013 #123

You're way late to the robot sex party LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #223

Your ego still badly bruised? Still trying to soothe it? cleanhippie Dec 2013 #121

sex with good woman is great Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #124

I know I certainly do! n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #127

For the life of me, I can't see how the OP's post is so terrible... CTyankee Dec 2013 #131

Call me strange; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #139

Playing games where you imply we all can't remember someone's past posts on a subject wont help stevenleser Dec 2013 #142

why not address the point she is making... CTyankee Dec 2013 #149

Affirm the manipulative game playing going on here? No thanks. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #151

you see a manipulative game and I see an opportunity to discuss an idea that can very CTyankee Dec 2013 #155

Nope, not with the poster's history. Pretending we don't all know this won't help. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #158

But, it doesn't stand on it's own. pintobean Dec 2013 #163

I think we should start charging for these OPs Prism Dec 2013 #128

This temper tantrum still going on? Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #130

Jeez BainsBane Dec 2013 #239

I'd like to chime in... KansDem Dec 2013 #132

Shaming never works Harmony Blue Dec 2013 #133

Let's hear it for joyful sex between caring men and women! CTyankee Dec 2013 #135

"Some people's bitterness here is very, very sad." Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #140

Of course not. The OP is making a very life and sex affirming statement. CTyankee Dec 2013 #146

No, they are not. Not when you consider the totality of the person's posts on the subject. stevenleser Dec 2013 #150

rather, lets hear it for sex between any consenting adults regardless of the sex of the loli phabay Dec 2013 #143

Baaaaaaah. dipsydoodle Dec 2013 #229

remember baaaaaaah always means no. loli phabay Dec 2013 #230

Pretty weird to assume anyone who watches porn doesn't have a polly7 Dec 2013 #148

All anti-porn arguments are similarly flawed. All porn=hetero, all fans dont have a partner, etc. stevenleser Dec 2013 #152

I think it's all just hypocritical, holier-than-thou bullshit. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #160

i so love you, you are dead on loli phabay Dec 2013 #167

Aww .... polly7 Dec 2013 #172

i look at it this way, i frequent other boards where there are thousands of women into porn loli phabay Dec 2013 #175

Here I am! HappyMe Dec 2013 #180

I couldn't be among better company! polly7 Dec 2013 #187

Aw...thanks. HappyMe Dec 2013 #189

I think that I did address erotica in a couple of posts in this thread... CTyankee Dec 2013 #154

You didn't answer my questions re: women who choose to watch porn, polly7 Dec 2013 #159

I don't stick my nose into other prople's business, if that is what you are driving at. CTyankee Dec 2013 #190

you forget that whats porn to you is erotica to others, its subjective to each individual. loli phabay Dec 2013 #161

and you don't know what I deem porn and what I deem erotica. CTyankee Dec 2013 #192

way to miss the whole point of my post. loli phabay Dec 2013 #194

I was kinda agreeing with you, actually. CTyankee Dec 2013 #200

lol, way for me to miss the point of your post, mea culpa loli phabay Dec 2013 #203

I didn't get that at all from the OP about victimhood R B Garr Dec 2013 #191

we watch a soft porn channel on Sunday mornings while hubby is doing his exercises and I'm CTyankee Dec 2013 #195

lol, yeah I've started the ridiculous screaming and moaning like they do just to make a point R B Garr Dec 2013 #210

they do get some nice looking actors but the funny positions they get into to "simulate" CTyankee Dec 2013 #213

oh, dear, polly, who are these porn people you talk about...this stuff really scares me...I hope you CTyankee Dec 2013 #257

No worries here. polly7 Dec 2013 #260

The OP wasn't "porn shaming" women or at least I didn't hear it that way. ... CTyankee Dec 2013 #262

Well I'm not stupid enough to believe only men watch and enjoy porn, polly7 Dec 2013 #264

Oh, my goodness! That sounds awful. All these DU feminist folk doing this stuff! CTyankee Dec 2013 #265

WTF are you going on about polly7 Dec 2013 #272

I'm okay but there is such a thing as "in vino, veritas", in case you haven't heard of it... CTyankee Dec 2013 #273

Truth .... or bullshit. I've worked in plenty of bars and seen polly7 Dec 2013 #275

I really don't think she's your enemy...really I don't. I don't hear anything that alarms me as a CTyankee Dec 2013 #278

I really don't care if she is or not. polly7 Dec 2013 #279

Well, in the sense that I don't think it is flame-bait, it does. Otherwise, personally, it does not. CTyankee Dec 2013 #281

Don't care why she did it. And her statement was crap. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #283

OH, dear god, men loving women who are living, breathing and orgasmic? Dear god... CTyankee Dec 2013 #286

Sounds like you might need one. polly7 Dec 2013 #289

Now I'm clutching my pearls! Aaargh! CTyankee Dec 2013 #297

Whatever turns your crank. polly7 Dec 2013 #303

Aw, c'mon, let's all lighten up, OK? CTyankee Dec 2013 #304

Absolutely! polly7 Dec 2013 #307

I hear ya. It's cold in CT tonight... CTyankee Dec 2013 #308

It's actually only -29C here with the wind chill factor, polly7 Dec 2013 #310

Oy. Hoping that we don't get that here...are you in the midwest? CTyankee Dec 2013 #311

I'm in southeast Saskatchewan. We've had it great so far, polly7 Dec 2013 #312

lordy, I'm here in CT. I wish you well there! CTyankee Dec 2013 #314

You too! My sister visited CT once in the fall, she said it was so gorgeous. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #315

well, there are some very nice parts and thanks! CTyankee Dec 2013 #317

Men and men allowed in your world? HERVEPA Dec 2013 #252

Absolutely not! All sexuality in their forms, welcome! WE love you... CTyankee Dec 2013 #267

people can like sex with others + porn. its hardly an either/or situation. nt La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2013 #144

Maybe for a 3rd waver Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #157

Oh boy, now you've done it. You mentioned the unmentionable "3rd wave feminism" stevenleser Dec 2013 #164

if there's video out there of "sex with real breathing, living, orgasmic women" pls let me know kthx yodermon Dec 2013 #165

Lol. Very well done. pintobean Dec 2013 #166

don't you think some people video themselves having sex? CTyankee Dec 2013 #202

I, too, would be interested in information about such a video. EOTE Dec 2013 #305

Thank goodness adults can choose if they want to watch porn. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #169

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #170

Most men like sex with women. MicaelS Dec 2013 #171

i would say most humans enjoy sex, who am i to interfere in what that sex entails loli phabay Dec 2013 #177

well, I think feminist complaints regarding viagra has to do with insurance policies that won't CTyankee Dec 2013 #204

Ya'll can flame anything. BainsBane Dec 2013 #197

Flame bait usually attracts flames pintobean Dec 2013 #201

At this point, this is looking like pure flamebait. MadrasT Dec 2013 #206

You are a marvel of understatement. nt rrneck Dec 2013 #212

"at this point" "looking" Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #219

Around 14 months ago. /nt pintobean Dec 2013 #222

Calling it flame bait is being nice. Hissyspit Dec 2013 #241

She must be proud pintobean Dec 2013 #242

So uh... why not both? Jester Messiah Dec 2013 #209

Apparently that isn't possible BainsBane Dec 2013 #240

For me it's "both/and" instead of "either/or" Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #234

The OP says "better than" BainsBane Dec 2013 #248

I see nothing wrong with your original formulation of your OP.... CTyankee Dec 2013 #253

Oh, for fuck's sake... Hissyspit Dec 2013 #238

well, Oh for ffs, ...what...? CTyankee Dec 2013 #254

Hunh? Hissyspit Dec 2013 #258

Of course it is massively complex. I never said it wasn't! CTyankee Dec 2013 #259

The original post IS a "crap-on." Hissyspit Dec 2013 #268

Because I don't think it is a "crap-on"! I take it at its face value. CTyankee Dec 2013 #269

It's not necessarily a good idea to take things on the Internet at face value. Hissyspit Dec 2013 #270

Not always, but here I think the OP was right and I was happy to hear it. CTyankee Dec 2013 #271

Those whose sexual behavior and situation fits the OP's Hissyspit Dec 2013 #274

I don't get what is not better than a joyfully accepting sexuality with human beings... CTyankee Dec 2013 #276

The thing is that it was a passive aggressive revenge swing. Bonobo Dec 2013 #285

AHA! ZEE garotte! CTyankee Dec 2013 #287

"insulting to humans" BainsBane Dec 2013 #290

Look. Bonobo Dec 2013 #293

I suspect there will be at least one whiner to complain in ATA about how mean you have been to them CTyankee Dec 2013 #298

So now expressing one's fondness for sex is appropriate fodder for GD OPs? EOTE Dec 2013 #306

Also, check out #226. /nt pintobean Dec 2013 #263

What's wrong with that? BainsBane Dec 2013 #291

I like sex. RandySF Dec 2013 #282

Hey, Randy, where you been? You're late to the prom, man... CTyankee Dec 2013 #284

Porn is like alcohol and religion. edbermac Dec 2013 #292

Can I trade religion for more booze? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #295

this isn't either/or, it is both/and FatBuddy Dec 2013 #302

I like the Sufi poet Rumi... CTyankee Dec 2013 #313

That is beautiful FatBuddy Dec 2013 #319

His writings are wonderful. I had the pleasure of a grad school course that included him very CTyankee Dec 2013 #321

Oh for Christ's sake, can't we just get back to Coyotl Dec 2013 #309

So why did you kick the thread? BainsBane Dec 2013 #316

Can't we just all get along mstinamotorcity2 Dec 2013 #318