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Orrex

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213. Typically it portrays an act of fictional, stylized violence or domination.

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:46 PM

Dec 2013

Last edited Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:47 PM - Edit history (1)

However, I propose that the question is not "is it violent?" but rather "is it necessarily bad that it's violent, and if so then why?"

As noted elsewhere, such depictions might be intended as pure fantasy. They might also be intended as satire or as social/political commentary (e.g., A Clockwork Orange, A Serbian Film). They might be intended as exposition in order to establish conflict to be resolved later within the story (e.g., Deliverance, Pulp Fiction, I Spit On Your Grave, Last House on the Left).

Granted, these films don't depict graphic penetration, they're of widely varying quality, and they're not typically seen as "spank material," but I'm not sure that any of that is central. Even if violent fantasy doesn't engage the viewer in higher-level discourse, there's plenty of violent fiction that likewise doesn't aspire to anything more than entertainment or distraction. Should "rape porn" be held to a higher standard? If so, then why?

Obviously we're not talking about actual depictions of rape, which are certainly illegal and should be prosecuted as such.

I should disclaim that I'm not an afficianado of rape porn, so I'm hardly an expert, but the subject has considerable overlap with non-porn-related fiction that might likewise be criticized as subversive, violent, dehumanizing or destructive, and the discussion interests me primarily on that level.

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When ideals collide... porn vs. feminism [View all] renie408 Nov 2013 OP

Ok...I think I got all the typos renie408 Nov 2013 #1

While dodging your original and interesting question, let me just say this... Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #2

Good Answer FreakinDJ Nov 2013 #3

I know renie408 Nov 2013 #5

That pretty much sums it up n/t kcr Nov 2013 #23

I am a bit confused by your assertion comparing pornography to rape pornography.. madinmaryland Nov 2013 #33

I compared two fringe groups Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #34

I don't know if that is even an apt comparison... madinmaryland Nov 2013 #35

I only compared them regarding their numbers/significance. Democracyinkind Nov 2013 #39

I think there are two fundamentally different wordviews BainsBane Nov 2013 #4

Huge K&R to OP and this post, BainsBane... OneGrassRoot Nov 2013 #9

I understand what you are trying to say, I just think tying 1st amendment to Laissez-fairism stevenleser Nov 2013 #11

I don't understand it at all Major Nikon Nov 2013 #55

That depends on how you define socialism BainsBane Nov 2013 #131

So rrneck Nov 2013 #137

As insightful as that question is BainsBane Nov 2013 #139

Ah, rrneck Nov 2013 #141

Well said. ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #30

Beautifully stated Tumbulu Dec 2013 #176

This is truth. n/t PowerToThePeople Dec 2013 #209

You pose an interesting question. Laelth Nov 2013 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Nov 2013 #7

I am.pretty much where you are... renie408 Nov 2013 #13

I don't think it needs to be banned ismnotwasm Nov 2013 #37

i agree. i have never suggest banning, regardless of the strawman always thrown out. education, seabeyond Nov 2013 #44

A person who had not been following these xulamaude Nov 2013 #56

so what do you or others want to achieve? RainDog Nov 2013 #67

I was simply making an observation. xulamaude Nov 2013 #73

okay RainDog Nov 2013 #75

What's so interesting about it? xulamaude Nov 2013 #78

it's interesting that someone who participates on these threads RainDog Nov 2013 #80

"you have made assertions about this or that" xulamaude Nov 2013 #88

LOL RainDog Nov 2013 #89

Well that's settled then. nt xulamaude Nov 2013 #90

wow woman. i am saying the smae in a subthread below. isnt that interesting. i addressed the seabeyond Nov 2013 #86

I don't feel any such conflict. They're in alignment. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #135

Thank you for posting that link. MyshkinCommaPrince Nov 2013 #138

I always liked the Wiccan Rede Savannahmann Nov 2013 #8

It's the pesky harming none part that always gets tricky. TDale313 Nov 2013 #167

I think you also unintentionally phrased your OP in a very heteronormative way stevenleser Nov 2013 #10

Huh...you are right. renie408 Nov 2013 #12

Their entire argument is inherently heteronormative. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2013 #28

At what jobs is it legal to actually hurt another person for pleasure and pay? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #177

Ummm... opiate69 Dec 2013 #183

But there are safety rules and protective clothing Tumbulu Dec 2013 #196

Nope.. I'm fairly certain... opiate69 Dec 2013 #197

But this is a sport competition, not a paid job Tumbulu Dec 2013 #199

It's, at its core, opiate69 Dec 2013 #200

But workers comp and OSHA rules apply to a paid workforce Tumbulu Dec 2013 #202

Edited. opiate69 Dec 2013 #204

Yes, but employers are held responsible for safety of all employees Tumbulu Dec 2013 #206

Can't answer right now. Watching a football game. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #190

... opiate69 Dec 2013 #192

So, do you think that they should go without helmets Tumbulu Dec 2013 #195

I find it intriguing that sports injuries are rationalized as "he knew what he was getting into" lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #208

Well, I don't have that attitude, do you? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #211

To an extent, I do. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #212

The issue is coercion, by whatever means. bemildred Nov 2013 #14

I'm still trying to get past your thread title, frankly. Pornography is an "ideal"? Where? Pompeii? WinkyDink Nov 2013 #15

Post removed Post removed Nov 2013 #16

Don't like it? Don't watch it. lightcameron Nov 2013 #17

See? This is pretty much what I am saying. renie408 Nov 2013 #18

Condescending much? 99Forever Nov 2013 #19

Seriously? renie408 Nov 2013 #24

Yes. Seriously. 99Forever Nov 2013 #27

Not really an answer treestar Nov 2013 #81

It isn't a conflict of progressive ideals Prism Nov 2013 #20

I think my problem is not with porn per se renie408 Nov 2013 #22

I find the "anti-porn" debate is like the "anti-abortion" debate RainDog Nov 2013 #26

And there would be a lot of common ground in that discussion Prism Nov 2013 #77

I love this post. LWolf Nov 2013 #21

It's not an either/or issue RainDog Nov 2013 #31

Great post. Whatever the problems at hand, state tyranny of any kind is not the answer. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #93

Of course. LWolf Nov 2013 #103

I think monotheisms are far worse for women than porn RainDog Nov 2013 #107

I think we have. LWolf Nov 2013 #119

I've been called a bigot for doing so here RainDog Nov 2013 #120

"I don't find a broad overlap between those who constantly talk about the harm of porn xulamaude Nov 2013 #130

If that's the case RainDog Nov 2013 #133

It's easy to miss things LWolf Nov 2013 #151

True RainDog Nov 2013 #163

well said. i agree. nt seabeyond Nov 2013 #45

jeez Iggo Nov 2013 #25

Finally! An intelligent OP on the subject. Thank you. rrneck Nov 2013 #29

i think HUMAN BEING trumps a piece of paper. and we are talking world wide, not just seabeyond Nov 2013 #32

To deny someone the freedom of expression is to dehumanize them. nt rrneck Nov 2013 #54

funny. like that compares to abuse rape enslavement coercion death. and again, as i said in post seabeyond Nov 2013 #57

Actually, you're certainly suggesting banning. rrneck Nov 2013 #59

wrong. wrong wrong wrong. fuck. i have fact yet you throw it to emotion. seabeyond Nov 2013 #60

Then explain post #32. rrneck Nov 2013 #61

post 32 is the reality. fact. we are comparing the constitution to the abuse, coercion, rape, seabeyond Nov 2013 #62

What does that reality have to do with fiction? nt rrneck Nov 2013 #63

and then there are those that need it all wrapped up in a pretty bow seabeyond Nov 2013 #65

Actually, I thought I might learn something. rrneck Nov 2013 #66

cause, i have only explained it for about mmmm, years. and because we have had a week of many seabeyond Nov 2013 #69

And yet we are still no closer to establishing cause and effect relationships to those who consent Major Nikon Nov 2013 #72

You refer to "ugly realities" without being very specific. rrneck Nov 2013 #74

see. cause this is not what i am going to do. i am not going thru this shit again. seabeyond Nov 2013 #83

Okay. You too. nt rrneck Nov 2013 #85

thank you.... seabeyond Nov 2013 #87

Your posts are a perfect example of the strawman argument mentioned in the OP. Threedifferentones Nov 2013 #152

The argument might well be that when fictional representations of rape and abuse el_bryanto Nov 2013 #157

Why not rephrase that in a form of a statement? Bonobo Nov 2013 #162

Because I am trying to understand it - not asserting it. nt el_bryanto Nov 2013 #166

About as far away as a person who enjoys watching horror movies enjoys actually murdering people. EOTE Dec 2013 #215

I don't recall having asserted that el_bryanto Dec 2013 #217

You didn't suggest that people who would watch such things would be likely to do such things? EOTE Dec 2013 #218

I am repeating an often made argument el_bryanto Dec 2013 #220

That "whole thing" wasn't in the post I was responding to. EOTE Dec 2013 #221

Good point. smirkymonkey Dec 2013 #236

Then what is your remedy? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #70

here is the point where so many fail. i ercognize the very real deal of it all, and can seabeyond Nov 2013 #82

I would never claim anyone has to like it Major Nikon Nov 2013 #100

When you can't tell one from the other. When the one is *presented* as the other. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #94

The objective is to make it indistinguishable. rrneck Nov 2013 #98

I can see what you're saying. But I still think that, with the amount of *real* rape/torture footage nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #101

Absolutely. rrneck Nov 2013 #102

to treat them as property is to quite literally dehumanize them BainsBane Nov 2013 #132

What are you talking about? rrneck Nov 2013 #134

You do realize that the actors are human beings, right? BainsBane Nov 2013 #140

Are you typing these posts on a computer rrneck Nov 2013 #143

No they should not, and we as liberals do work to continually improve worker safety matters Tumbulu Dec 2013 #179

It's legal when it's fiction. rrneck Dec 2013 #182

Rape Porn is a Narrowly Defined Subset of Porn. Rape is Illegal. Rape is Violence. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #36

Exactly! nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #95

Why should they collide? Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #38

I was told Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #53

That makes absolutely no sense at all. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #68

if the actress Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #91

Sounds like a crappy excuse. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #104

I know Niceguy1 Nov 2013 #105

do you have a link for someone making this claim? RainDog Nov 2013 #71

I do, since I had to c/p it earlier LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #115

thanks RainDog Nov 2013 #116

LOL! LadyHawkAZ Nov 2013 #118

How can you justify hurting someone for pay? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #181

People choose what they want to do. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #187

Oh, sorry, this is called libertarian, not liberal nt Tumbulu Dec 2013 #194

Some people truly enjoy being hurt in various ways mwrguy Dec 2013 #234

Guns sort of fit into this mindset The Straight Story Nov 2013 #40

question for you and/or anyone else that might know: Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #41

both are probably over regulated The Straight Story Nov 2013 #42

so then, is it fair to say that, you are for deregulation of both industries? Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #43

it is fair to say: The Straight Story Nov 2013 #46

Do you think Rape Porn depicts an act of sex (a sex scene) or an act of violence? Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #48

sex The Straight Story Nov 2013 #50

I am not your stepping stone. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #113

That it's a simulation doesn't change what it depicts BainsBane Dec 2013 #237

Typically it portrays an act of fictional, stylized violence or domination. Orrex Dec 2013 #213

The question is central to the issue BainsBane Dec 2013 #238

I don't understand the multiple guns fear thing. I only have two arms. AtheistCrusader Dec 2013 #170

There's also those of us concerned with work place conditions and remuneration etc. KittyWampus Nov 2013 #47

Do you think a person can give legal consent while under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #49

Or kidnapped and forced. Or dominated and controlled. We can't make it simple cause it is not. seabeyond Nov 2013 #51

Who is trying to make it simple? You. Threedifferentones Nov 2013 #153

Free Speech is a liberal ideal, not a progressive ideal cthulu2016 Nov 2013 #52

But on the other hand, being anti-free speech isn't generally seen as progressive. With good reason. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #96

Are abortion rights a free speech issue? Major Nikon Nov 2013 #58

Pornography, much like retail shopping, is not problematic in and of itself... Hippo_Tron Nov 2013 #64

There are things we shouldn't do or are not allowed to do no matter how much money is offered. Evoman Nov 2013 #76

Aren't women capable of making their own decisions? Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #84

shouldnt i be able to decide to work for Walmart for ten cents an hour? Its my body Evoman Nov 2013 #122

Yes. Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #128

No, it is the argument that makes sense Tumbulu Dec 2013 #184

Uh huh. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #189

"It is dangerous to performers..." NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #112

It should be safe from excessive risk of injury Major Nikon Nov 2013 #117

I don't think you can ever remove the risks... NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #126

Safe is relative to the occupation Major Nikon Nov 2013 #148

probably. Evoman Nov 2013 #123

Uh...probably because that has nothing to do with baseball. NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #125

They have rules and regulations to protect the players Tumbulu Dec 2013 #185

The question of harm is the legitimate one Warpy Nov 2013 #79

If porn is considered an "ideal," civilization really has scraped rock bottom. n/t duffyduff Nov 2013 #92

"Anything that smacks of limiting free speech is anathema." NaturalHigh Nov 2013 #97

You do not think that the workers deserve any protection? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #186

I heard a funny joke on the radio on this topic... Jeffersons Ghost Nov 2013 #99

Here's a post which sums up why this "debate" is totally pointless: Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #106

Except that only a few people here actually take it that far. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #108

This is true. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #121

I think you're probably right. One could argue that it's a matter of raising greater awareness - nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #124

people just want to talk about porn RainDog Nov 2013 #142

Yeah, I'll wear that label proudly. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #144

Seems like more than a few, and only a few are calling bullshit when they do Major Nikon Nov 2013 #150

I agree completely with the Friedan quote. And for the most part I'm strongly anti-censorship. nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #156

At some point you have to decide it's banal Major Nikon Nov 2013 #158

Oh, absolutely. I certainly don't subscribe to any "porn causes rape" theory - other than nomorenomore08 Nov 2013 #161

I have no problem with anyone who wants to boycott Major Nikon Nov 2013 #165

Yeah. Jenna Jameson had a long career in porn because Vashta Nerada Nov 2013 #110

Nina Hartley has been doing it continuously for 30 years Major Nikon Nov 2013 #154

10/10, best post I've seen on this topic. n/t Kurska Nov 2013 #111

If you weren't going to try to respond to the question in the OP BainsBane Nov 2013 #127

I find it oddly ironic that your extremely non-responsive response to my response Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #145

I see what you mean. It was poorly executed. BainsBane Nov 2013 #146

It's all good. Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #147

I hate you Orrex Nov 2013 #159

Indeed Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #160

I've seen this same idea expressed in other posts, hughee99 Nov 2013 #168

I think that the discussion is about violence Tumbulu Dec 2013 #188

Don't forget spanking, clamping, and strapping mwrguy Dec 2013 #235

This is an easy answer for me procon Nov 2013 #109

very. well. said. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2013 #114

I see no problem with boycotting Major Nikon Nov 2013 #155

I personally don't have a desire to attack "rape porn" for the following reasons: Dash87 Nov 2013 #129

One can criticize content without calling for censorship bluestateguy Nov 2013 #136

That's exactly the way I look at it Major Nikon Nov 2013 #149

And shockingly, here we are 7-8 threads deep into this topic, and Warren DeMontague Nov 2013 #164

And DU was made for porn fights! RainDog Nov 2013 #169

Apparently, porn has replaced... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #171

this will explain all RainDog Dec 2013 #173

"Reefer Madness" was special and I can't imagine... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #175

Progressive ideals? I'm not sure that's the point in a lot of this... TreasonousBastard Dec 2013 #172

Seriously - I don't think free speech and social justice are separable RainDog Dec 2013 #174

So can I Buck Stopin Harry Dec 2013 #193

As BainsBane said upthread, the intellectual/philisophical justification for porn... YoungDemCA Dec 2013 #178

This is blatantly false RainDog Dec 2013 #191

So the ONLY things that are valuable are those which benefit society? What a crock. Warren DeMontague Dec 2013 #233

Some pornography contains NO women. MNBrewer Dec 2013 #180

Amen mwrguy Dec 2013 #232

I'm in the "do no harm" camp Tumbulu Dec 2013 #198

Consent is the issue regarding harm. Your sheep did not get to consent. RainDog Dec 2013 #201

I do not think that someone consenting to do something that hurts or maims them Tumbulu Dec 2013 #203

as others have noted RainDog Dec 2013 #205

So where does all this go? Tumbulu Dec 2013 #210

It's interesting that you choose not to address the issue of your own actions RainDog Dec 2013 #216

This message was self-deleted by its author Tumbulu Dec 2013 #219

I was #1. Sissyk Dec 2013 #222

desperation, looks to me RainDog Dec 2013 #226

Are you implying that because you defend violent porn that you therefore Tumbulu Dec 2013 #223

LOL. RainDog Dec 2013 #225

Well, many of us are not Tumbulu Dec 2013 #228

thanks for sharing your opinion...on a computer n/t RainDog Dec 2013 #229

The recent spate of threads Riftaxe Dec 2013 #207

The OP calls for censorship, whether this is understood or not RainDog Dec 2013 #214

and yet another illumination Tumbulu Dec 2013 #224

yet again, you miss the point RainDog Dec 2013 #227

Do no harm get the red out Dec 2013 #230

There are conflicting ideals, but they are not porn v. feminism. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #231