General Discussion

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)

262. Your view of the Second is an outlier. Even Laurence Tribe

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 12:54 AM

Dec 2013

and Alan Dershowitz -- no friends of 2A -- see it as recognizing an individual right, and so do most scholars of the Second. On ignorance: The bor deals with individual rights, not the right of governments, militia or other entity. The Articles describe militia powers; from there, the government announces in 2A why the RKBA is necessary within that larger encompassing right. It certainly doesn't condition it.

As I said, well regulated meant having a weapon suitable for the military and knowing how to use it. The gov has within its power to give "bearing" additional meaning as per Article 1. The right to bear is recognized by the feds, but the states reserve the power to regulate the manner so long as it does not run afoul of the Second or the 14th.

Look at it this way: The citizen can own weapons, but he/she better have one suitable for military service as required by Article 1. Frankly, outside of some NYT writers, I don't know many who continue to cling to such a stolid grammar to explain an amendment, or to such an oddball insertion of a conditional communitarian right amid a document replete with individual rights.

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"Guns Have Changed. Our Gun Laws Have Not Kept Pace." [View all] kpete Dec 2013 OP

K&R LiberalEsto Dec 2013 #1

thank you etherealtruth Dec 2013 #2

k&r... spanone Dec 2013 #3

Or our ability to defend ourselves has vastly improved. ileus Dec 2013 #4

I like the AR Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #19

It was the standard rate of fire for the British Army through the Napoleonic War intaglio Dec 2013 #142

Poster fail Crepuscular Dec 2013 #5

please Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #9

Not to mention the Girandoni Rifle- 1780, 20 round tubular magazine, semi-auto X_Digger Dec 2013 #12

Which was an exotic and uncommon weapon that was pretty much unknown outside Europe Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #16

It was used in a lot of school shootings back then, too. Orrex Dec 2013 #20

The mid-1800's had many guns of a similar lethality. X_Digger Dec 2013 #28

Not really. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #54

But the tech DID exist. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #65

There's a big gap between "did exist" and "was common". Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #78

Of course back that civilians could own cannons and so forth... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #79

The tech was known, and people were working on new arms. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #113

The language "bear arms" has a specifically military context. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #221

how is that Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #229

New models didn't spring forth from the head of Zeus... Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #236

No-one said they did. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #237

If that were true.. X_Digger Dec 2013 #240

Your view of the Second is an outlier. Even Laurence Tribe Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #262

What you chose to read into the poster... gcomeau Dec 2013 #82

Even if I were to concede that point, the point of the poster is still an epic fail. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #88

No, it isn't... gcomeau Dec 2013 #119

Then the poster is a logical fallacy to begin with. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #124

No, it is not. gcomeau Dec 2013 #132

Attempting to frame the debate around gun control in such a narrow way is fallacious. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #137

HOW is it fallacious? gcomeau Dec 2013 #139

False dichotomy and appeal to emotion would both appear to apply here. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #145

Except it is not a false dichotomy. gcomeau Dec 2013 #159

Actually, the argument is very much so based on that. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #167

It's an emotional subject. gcomeau Dec 2013 #173

I have a "mini" semi-auto. Built in 1905. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #130

Au contraire. Straw Man Dec 2013 #241

Wow, in one whole state? gcomeau Dec 2013 #242

Yes, the third most populous state in the Union. Straw Man Dec 2013 #244

Yes, we shall keep going. gcomeau Dec 2013 #246

A fraction. Straw Man Dec 2013 #247

Yes, a fraction. gcomeau Dec 2013 #249

I see. Straw Man Dec 2013 #251

In my mind gcomeau Dec 2013 #259

Tell me why ... Straw Man Dec 2013 #265

I refer you... gcomeau Dec 2013 #266

Obviously ... Straw Man Dec 2013 #271

No, I have an... gcomeau Dec 2013 #276

No, actually you don't. Straw Man Dec 2013 #279

Sigh... gcomeau Dec 2013 #280

With pleasure. Straw Man Dec 2013 #281

Wow. gcomeau Dec 2013 #282

Now you're just babbling. Straw Man Dec 2013 #285

Similar to the Girandoni, yes. X_Digger Dec 2013 #81

+1 Agschmid Dec 2013 #152

The OP is correct, but needs to add that gun fanciers' reasons for arming up have changed. Hoyt Dec 2013 #153

The defining difference? Urbanisation. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #23

Mid-1800s is 1805; Mid 18C is 1750 and Mid 19C is 1850 intaglio Dec 2013 #147

Were those guns readily available for everyone without universal background checks? Agschmid Dec 2013 #151

yes Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #156

Yah my big point was the availability of instant money. Agschmid Dec 2013 #157

like cash, gold, silver Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #164

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #292

So, you and other posters think that guns have NOT jazzimov Dec 2013 #163

guns have changed Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #168

Gun culture IS a mental illness. 99Forever Dec 2013 #6

Guns Are Our Moloch kpete Dec 2013 #7

Excellent blog, thank you. More: 99Forever Dec 2013 #8

99Forever kpete Dec 2013 #13

Wills slouches toward Salem. He should switch to H.G. Wells' Morlocks. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #117

I assume that is your OPINION Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #10

Gun culture IS a mental illness. 99Forever Dec 2013 #11

Remember, kids: if you use all-caps to give your hyperbole extra emphasis... Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #18

Gun culture IS a mental illness. 99Forever Dec 2013 #24

Free clue: parrot-like repetition of inane prattle doesn't make it any more valid. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #25

When 20 children are slaughtered and the response is to go to a discussion board to defend guns DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #46

Please calm down Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #47

Which comment is over the top, and why do you support death fetishists? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #52

I am just a Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #56

death fetishist is over the top hyperbole Mojorabbit Dec 2013 #225

If someone opposes women being armed for self-defense does that mean they are pro-rape fetishists? Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2013 #233

+1 Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #48

I think you are (in most cases) mistaking the actual cause-and-effect. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #50

And what do you call people who use a tragedy to restrict a civil liberty? aikoaiko Dec 2013 #58

New Orleans cops? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #59

Yup, they did it, too. aikoaiko Dec 2013 #75

George Bush Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #62

Yep, he did it, too. aikoaiko Dec 2013 #76

Just to be clear ... Straw Man Dec 2013 #187

How quickly we forget Einstein's view of insanity. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #135

Indeed. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #148

I don't know what he thinks on the issue of 2A, but this practice Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #238

The People of grantcart Dec 2013 #245

Do tell. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #250

I spent 20 years overseas. grantcart Dec 2013 #255

You're missing my point, I think. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #258

I have family members with mental illness and you assertion is an insult to those Packerowner740 Dec 2013 #138

So you see fetish as sickness? SQUEE Dec 2013 #243

Yes I agree Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #27

It was a bad call then, and it's a bad call now. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #33

I agree on the jury being flawed Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #38

That juror comment is a perfect illustration. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #40

And those jurors see nothing wrong .... oldhippie Dec 2013 #118

Voting to hide something for that sort of reasoning should get somebody banned. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #120

I'd say that's unsubstantiated chauvinism and misuse of mental illness HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #26

Strawman bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #31

Not a strawman at all. You're using a chauvinistic argument with the mentally ill as the hinge HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #44

Bullshit again. 99Forever Dec 2013 #55

My, my, you've missed it entirely. Your bigoted chauvinism abuses the mentally ill. HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #69

Hogwash. 99Forever Dec 2013 #91

, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #94

Your disconnect from reality is truly staggering. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #106

Name calling lacks eruditon...seemly, so does your understanding of "Straw man" HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #127

You post.. 99Forever Dec 2013 #129

And a Bully, Happy Holidays!, to you HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #134

Funny that... 99Forever Dec 2013 #136

You miss again. bully, adjective:dashing, hearty, or jolly HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #144

Accuse the opposition... 99Forever Dec 2013 #175

Go ahead, keep trying... HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #178

Ownership of how many guns makes Jenoch Dec 2013 #174

if it's a mental disorder, as you allege Niceguy1 Dec 2013 #45

Well there ya go, nothing promotes a reasonable discussion of the issues like calling... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #49

I call being insane, insanity. 99Forever Dec 2013 #53

And I'm sure you have a medical background that would qualify you to diagnose so many people... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #57

Does it require a "special degree" to know that ... 99Forever Dec 2013 #60

Actually, I think you're the one who's obsessed. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #61

It IS " the guns and gun owners that are the problem." 99Forever Dec 2013 #63

Actually, no, it isn't. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #73

actually he did Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #80

No guns, no gun deaths. Period. 99Forever Dec 2013 #86

Just deaths by other means? Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #89

More strawman bullshit from another fetishist. 99Forever Dec 2013 #93

Seems to be your standard answer when you can't be honest. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #97

I don't agrue with bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #102

No, you just spew it. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #104

Then you are arguing with yourself, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #111

You moved the goal post. Only gun deaths matter now, eh? eqfan592 Dec 2013 #90

More strawman bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #95

Brady Org. talking point? Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #99

Given the context you just used the word in, you clearly don't understand its meaning. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #101

99Forever kpete Dec 2013 #68

You seem to have each others back in marginalizing the plight of the mentally ill. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #74

You are so wrong about me eqfan592 kpete Dec 2013 #92

You are in fact marginalizing it, family history or not. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #100

I abhor violence of kpete Dec 2013 #108

Really? Hearing about how dealing with poverty, poor education, inadequate mental health care... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #112

thats enough kpete Dec 2013 #115

Apparently we already were. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #116

Terri Schiavo Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #64

You're correct! But at least there he looked at a video of her. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #67

you are of course right Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #70

yes and a money grab samsingh Dec 2013 #143

For once, I agree with you. KitSileya Dec 2013 #239

Whoever made that silly poster has no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #14

And the population has increased even more ..... oldhippie Dec 2013 #15

oldhippie kpete Dec 2013 #21

We have had these types of guns for more than a century now. appal_jack Dec 2013 #17

distortion.... kpete Dec 2013 #22

sorry but an Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #30

oh jeez,,, kpete Dec 2013 #32

The Supreme Court interpreting plain language plainly is not 'distortion.' appal_jack Dec 2013 #36

K&R. Guns have changed, as have the fantasies which accompany their usage. Paladin Dec 2013 #29

why do cops need more than 7? Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #35

I can personally attest to that. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #41

When they can't aim and they miss their target then innocent bystanders will be killed Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #43

"...can't aim and miss innocent bystanders..." Jenoch Dec 2013 #179

Oops, you are right that was poorly worded Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #181

How oftem does such a thing happen? Jenoch Dec 2013 #183

Are you suggesting that you have only heard of one instance in which a stray bullet killed somebody? Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #184

I mentioned one that came to mind without considering it too much. Jenoch Dec 2013 #189

It was actually Duckhunter who brought up police shooting and missing their targets Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #193

it was about never needing more than 7 rounds Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #198

When would you envision being in that situation. You ain't in a war zone, Hoyt Dec 2013 #214

Oh I know that Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #218

You mentioned innocent bystanders, Jenoch Dec 2013 #199

Just Google "police shoot innocent bystander" and you will get all kinds of results Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #204

This all started because your response to Duckhunter Jenoch Dec 2013 #206

I never said anything about how many rounds law enforcement should have Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #210

LA comes to mind Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #186

I think the idiot LA cops were intending to shoot those vehicles, Jenoch Dec 2013 #191

I don't know about that -- there are a lot more laws now than then. aikoaiko Dec 2013 #34

Too true, my friend. nt appal_jack Dec 2013 #37

Do you think they could have imagined anything like the modern communication infrastructure? Decaffeinated Dec 2013 #39

This post is patently false. Gun laws obviously have changed since the days of muskets, like in 1934 Threedifferentones Dec 2013 #42

back before 34 Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #51

AR-15 vs. Winchester Model 70 bolt action. Paladin Dec 2013 #66

Since you are repeating me I will assume you did not actually read my whole post. Threedifferentones Dec 2013 #72

the model 70 Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #77

Extra points for the "milspec" term. Was it good for you? (nt) Paladin Dec 2013 #84

I fail to understand Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #98

Take the rest of the day off, OK? (nt) Paladin Dec 2013 #109

Woah there. The model 70 is based off of military-issued Mausers. aikoaiko Dec 2013 #85

"You know better than to play loose with facts about guns, Paladin. " Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #87

Ranchemp, I'm disappointed in you. Paladin Dec 2013 #105

Gun control is effective as long as it's reasonable. Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #121

You seem to be fairly reasonable, yourself. Paladin Dec 2013 #133

I agree, it seems that gun threads Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #149

When was the last time a Model 70 was used in a mass shooting? Paladin Dec 2013 #96

Mass shootings are not "red herrings." Paladin Dec 2013 #83

Mass shootings are, statistically speaking, red herrings. A lot facts are hard to swallow, Threedifferentones Dec 2013 #103

Just as a note: priming and then loading a flintlock is a nice way to get shot in the face NutmegYankee Dec 2013 #71

make room for the gun humpers..... spanone Dec 2013 #107

Sadly, this is like chum in the water etherealtruth Dec 2013 #114

you all wanted it Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #123

No this is what 'we all' want etherealtruth Dec 2013 #131

You all Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #140

Of course it is your right to vote your conscience etherealtruth Dec 2013 #146

and that would be hand guns Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #150

I think your thread was largely ignored because of the odd note it struck etherealtruth Dec 2013 #160

you conveniantly Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #165

Actually, that would be a good post if clearly conveyed etherealtruth Dec 2013 #169

nope Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #171

Such an unfortunate response etherealtruth Dec 2013 #172

I did NOT want this. Agschmid Dec 2013 #226

Indeed so: it draws in the bigots and haters. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #155

So true ... those in favor of strict gun control etherealtruth Dec 2013 #161

The abusive ones are in the minority. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #162

As it always has been and forever will etherealtruth Dec 2013 #166

So true. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #170

And your insulting phrase "gun humpers" is exactly why Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #125

And isn't it amazing that term is permitted, ...... oldhippie Dec 2013 #154

Some animals are more equal than others. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #158

Just hie thee off to any of the many rightwing gun forums and your fav terms are perfectly fine. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #176

There's nothing "progressive" about abject bigotry and pointlessly divisive language. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #177

right. We should tolerate all sorts of rightwing nutjob whackery here. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #185

Nice strawman. Hope it protects your garden. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #188

That is not what I see Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #192

What bigotry are you referring to? Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #190

An excellent question! Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #194

they will never see it or accept it Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #196

Many will, I think. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #197

I hope you are right nt Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #200

So do you consider people who use tems like "gun grabber" and "hoplophobe" to be bigots as well? Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #201

That term is rarely used Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #202

You much not pay much attention then, the pro-gun side is filled with bigots Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #208

we will disagree Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #211

If you paid any attention at all during the trial there were constant smears of Trayvon Martin Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #212

In fact I do. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #203

Well I can at least respect your consistency Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #205

Thank you. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #207

intolerance Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #195

So says one of the ..... oldhippie Dec 2013 #209

I think a vast Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #213

Fascinating. How does that work, exactly? Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #219

dont be coy Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #220

How exactly are randomly selected juries stacked with Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #222

So disdainful of discussion that you have mock DU members. aikoaiko Dec 2013 #128

K & R Thanks! mountain grammy Dec 2013 #110

I think this thread makes it very clear ...... oldhippie Dec 2013 #122

I agree Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #126

How can one post rationally to folks who need a gun or two to venture into public, Hoyt Dec 2013 #215

Most CCW do not regulary carry Duckhunter935 Dec 2013 #216

Who said anything about death penalty for gun fanciers, imprisonment maybe Hoyt Dec 2013 #217

Evidently irrational name calling holds a higher value, because Skip Intro Dec 2013 #230

excellent post samsingh Dec 2013 #141

No, they haven't changed much at all for a very long time. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #180

I believe the factual error at the top Jenoch Dec 2013 #182

We are still left with the bottom of the poster. Orsino Dec 2013 #223

It appears you have misunderstood my post. Jenoch Dec 2013 #224

My idea... Orsino Dec 2013 #267

I do not agree with the premise about the fiunding fathers. Jenoch Dec 2013 #269

The poster interested you enough... Orsino Dec 2013 #270

Factual errors when attempting to Jenoch Dec 2013 #272

See, that's not cutting it. Orsino Dec 2013 #273

ThT's not what I wrote. Jenoch Dec 2013 #277

Post #182 is what you wrote... Orsino Dec 2013 #286

I believe there are several things that can be done in the area of gun laws. Jenoch Dec 2013 #287

Not really Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #234

two more important graphics ... napkinz Dec 2013 #227

Good post. deathrind Dec 2013 #228

Wow, only 36 recs. Hopeful sign! n/t Skip Intro Dec 2013 #231

232 replies, only 38 recs. Hmmmmmm. Hekate Dec 2013 #232

thanks Hekate kpete Dec 2013 #235

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #248

Rachel Maddow comment ... napkinz Dec 2013 #252

Rachel Maddow was wrong about this, Ranchemp. Dec 2013 #257

You just can't have a rational discussion regarding gun control here in America. Oakenshield Dec 2013 #253

the insanity! napkinz Dec 2013 #254

A lot of Morlocks in this thread. Tommy_Carcetti Dec 2013 #256

I'd scream too, if I had a chance to dine on Yvette! Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #263

"Finish the Job" and Expand the Brady Law to Online and Gun Show Sales Now napkinz Dec 2013 #260

Universal background checks make perfect sense. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #264

I agree ... napkinz Dec 2013 #275

An idea that I support in principal, but background checks against what? HereSince1628 Dec 2013 #290

I like this! kpete Dec 2013 #268

thanks napkinz Dec 2013 #274

Universal background checks would be awesome, and possibly attainable Recursion Dec 2013 #284

ask yourself why ... napkinz Dec 2013 #261

two new graphics posted by "Americans Against The Republican Party" napkinz Dec 2013 #278

I can't think of a way guns have changed in the past century or so Recursion Dec 2013 #283

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #288

I don't think I understand your point... Agschmid Dec 2013 #289

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2013 #291