General Discussion

Orrex

(67,252 posts)

122. "Food Matters" is a highly robust assertion, in part because no one has ever disputed it

Tue Dec 17, 2013, 05:35 PM

Dec 2013

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm not qualified to analyze your data, but I think I'm equipped to ask a few questions about methodology (some of which you may already have answered in previous posts that I missed):

1. What were the age ranges of the children studied? Were they the same (i.e., all studied from age 6 months to 4 years, etc.), or were they all different ages?

2. How long were the children studied?

3. How did you control for diet during this time? How closely did you monitor food/nutrient intake?

4. How many children were in the control group?

5. How did you control for non-obvious physical causes that might produce neurological effects similar to those posited to be diet-related?

6. Of the children studied, how many demonstrated "improvements" that might have been normal in longitudinal observation? That is, are the improvements within the normal arc of development? How do these compare with the control group?

7. In cases where children showed rapid, dramatic improvement, did the improvement diminish when the nutritional supplement was removed?

I'm not actually asking you to answer these questions, but rather to consider some of the reasonable concerns that might be raised about the methodology used to generate your data, methodology that would have to be reproduced in order to validate your findings via repeated experimentation.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

198 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Nitwits & Why Physicians Lose Credibility [View all] IdaBriggs Dec 2013 OP

Please note that prenatal folic acid and vitamin K injections aren't the same thing as supplements. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #1

+1...nt SidDithers Dec 2013 #3

^^THIS^^ longship Dec 2013 #7

Folic acid and Vitamin K *ARE* both supplements. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #20

I'm sorry that you don't understand what you're talking about. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #22

Unfortunately, I do know what I'm talking about. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #25

"I'm not a doctor - just better informed than they are. "... SidDithers Dec 2013 #27

Dr. Dre, specifically. Dr. Strange Dec 2013 #37

Heeh... SidDithers Dec 2013 #71

Yep. I said it. And I stand by it. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #41

i hate when she makes me agree with Sid CreekDog Dec 2013 #45

I'm kind of shocked too. NealK Dec 2013 #116

My brother IS a doctor with an MD from a well-known medical school, and Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #77

No, you clearly don't. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #35

Sigh. We're going in circles. Yes, folic acid (vitamin b9) is important. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #47

Did you actually bother to read the article you're criticising? Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #54

Maybe that's the source of the problem here. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #101

That's right tavalon Dec 2013 #142

Spider is referencing double-blind studies of efficacy, while you are... CreekDog Dec 2013 #44

Dude, there *ARE* no double-blind studies about what I am talking about. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #51

Maybe there aren't any because there is no causal link between the treatment and the disease? CreekDog Dec 2013 #88

Sigh. If that is true, then it should be easy to prove, right? IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #95

if you don't have a causal link, how are you going to prove one? CreekDog Dec 2013 #97

We can turn the sensory processing issues on and off like a water faucet. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #98

well at least you weren't testing on animals CreekDog Dec 2013 #99

If the medical establishment were doing their job correctly, tavalon Dec 2013 #145

No Studies Because Drug Companies/Government Doesn't Fund Them. Justina For Justice Dec 2013 #125

As long as you don't look, there never will be tavalon Dec 2013 #144

so we're supposed to spend millions studying her idea without a causal link? CreekDog Dec 2013 #174

How about spending $1K? IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #186

why should we spend any money on your idea? CreekDog Dec 2013 #187

Dude, I just offered to pay for it, and I have identified IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #189

Butting in here to say that 5K wouldn't even buy a feasibility study. Gormy Cuss Dec 2013 #190

I have been told that $5k could probably get us a study design. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #193

Oh, and I would be happy to provide some free product to any physician IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #196

are you fundraising here for human, medical experimentation? CreekDog Dec 2013 #191

I am NOT fundraising here, thank you very much. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #192

I see no references. tavalon Dec 2013 #143

please don't dis citizen/patient advocates zazen Dec 2013 #55

I think I'm in love with you. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #57

I've found it's really hard to post things like this here tavalon Dec 2013 #146

We have overseers on the internet, so-to-speak. Kurovski Dec 2013 #195

I don't think it has to do with money for many of the "anti-woo" folk. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #197

I'm not insulting anyone. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #70

Dr. Jerusalem tavalon Dec 2013 #141

It comes down to trusting your own personal experience with stuff. Voice for Peace Dec 2013 #127

THIS ^^^^^ COLGATE4 Dec 2013 #21

Well said. It's unfortunate that the woosayers will completely ignore this. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #40

Yes Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #137

K&R PADemD Dec 2013 #2

Thank you. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #26

it's also probably a waste of time.. Voice for Peace Dec 2013 #128

Especially if they are refusing to look at it tavalon Dec 2013 #147

I can never comprehend their virulence in opposition. Voice for Peace Dec 2013 #183

Science based medicine smacking down the multi-billion dollar supplement industry... SidDithers Dec 2013 #4

My "advice" on ignoring the benefits of folic acid was pure sarcasm. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #14

well phil89 Dec 2013 #129

83% is huge tavalon Dec 2013 #148

Oh dear. I missed the part where the Annals of Internal Medicine paper geckosfeet Dec 2013 #5

Apparently you missed the DU discussions about "woo". IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #15

Not at all. Just did not see it (the word "woo") in the article you referenced. geckosfeet Dec 2013 #68

On credibility frustrated_lefty Dec 2013 #6

Great article. jsr Dec 2013 #11

Good article... SidDithers Dec 2013 #12

Everyone in the industry needs to get published. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #28

Why? tavalon Dec 2013 #149

Have you never heard of the term "hypervitaminosis"? intaglio Dec 2013 #8

Well, it kills the assumption that they don't DO anything. loudsue Dec 2013 #16

LOL you said what I was thinking. nt laundry_queen Dec 2013 #29

Yes, vitamins are good for you. So are minerals. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #17

The vast majority of people get their trace nutrients from their food intaglio Dec 2013 #49

Yes, the vast majority do get adequate trace minerals from their food. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #50

And all of those are diagnosed - by doctors. intaglio Dec 2013 #64

Get it right - LIQUID TRACE MINERALS. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #67

Sugar water then intaglio Dec 2013 #91

By doctors who have been taught at the knee of other doctors who..... tavalon Dec 2013 #152

Tell you what intaglio Dec 2013 #160

That is not my goal tavalon Dec 2013 #164

You have some knowledge tavalon Dec 2013 #151

Non-sequitur of the month intaglio Dec 2013 #162

How about reading the journals? tavalon Dec 2013 #165

What do you recommend for pernicious anemia? ~ nt antiquie Dec 2013 #178

A visit to the Doctor n/t intaglio Dec 2013 #179

Doc says vitamins, obviously a quake. antiquie Dec 2013 #181

Good, so you are taking "vitamins" under medical supervision intaglio Dec 2013 #182

I don't take A or E supplements, but I've never Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #80

Well, at least you picked fat solubles tavalon Dec 2013 #150

B6 is water soluble intaglio Dec 2013 #158

I'm not against evidenced based medicine tavalon Dec 2013 #163

Big Pharma wants us to buy prescription drugs, nothing over-the-counter. another_liberal Dec 2013 #9

I worry about this -- there are a lot of manufacturers out there IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #30

Kirkman labs tavalon Dec 2013 #153

And here comes the march of the woo's. nt eqfan592 Dec 2013 #38

Why the snake flag? another_liberal Dec 2013 #73

The flag is part of my signature. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #76

Well, at least that's cleared up. another_liberal Dec 2013 #79

Nope, never said that. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #85

I hope whoever is doing that has the good sense to stop at once. another_liberal Dec 2013 #87

We agree then. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #89

It was not my intent to offer folk cures or anything of that sort. another_liberal Dec 2013 #92

Yes - and whenever they see an herb working, they work to change it... polichick Dec 2013 #72

Hear! Hear! another_liberal Dec 2013 #74

Not really related except by the closed mindedness of medical profession. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #10

Oh I'm going to catch hell... svpadgham Dec 2013 #13

By the way... IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #82

Thank you for sharing the story. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #31

When I was growing up, we had an old dog who really perked up Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #84

Ida, there are a bunch of us who know what nutrition and natural remedies do to help people. loudsue Dec 2013 #18

Bottom line for me: whatever works. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #34

Whatever works? eqfan592 Dec 2013 #42

+1 Marr Dec 2013 #53

Well said... SidDithers Dec 2013 #58

WHAT A BLOODY BRILLIANT IDEA!!!! IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #65

This message was self-deleted by its author Marr Dec 2013 #100

Yeah, well, I'm guessing she might have tried to get that funding tavalon Dec 2013 #155

Guessing and big assumptions are the problem. Marr Dec 2013 #180

You are mistaken on multiple points in your post. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #184

Evidence based medicine is currently ignoring the evidence. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #56

provide an example and we can talk. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #60

What is the specific claim that you're making? Orrex Dec 2013 #61

Beautiful Post ^ ^ ^ cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #66

Let me spell it out for you. I think I've made it clear elsewhere, IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #78

Thank you for summarizing your experience. Orrex Dec 2013 #107

Orrex, you make valid points. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #112

"Food Matters" is a highly robust assertion, in part because no one has ever disputed it Orrex Dec 2013 #122

Yeah! Someone who CARES enough to ask!!! IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #172

Actually, people like Ida and myself actually know about our medical subjects of interest tavalon Dec 2013 #157

Then present the data. You can't have it both ways. Orrex Dec 2013 #177

As I said earlier, I gave up trying to open minds here tavalon Dec 2013 #156

Provide per reviewed studies that have been replicated that can ...." loudsue Dec 2013 #104

Oh yes, hundreds of them. Ok then. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #105

Excellent way to look at 840high Dec 2013 #136

By willfully not looking tavalon Dec 2013 #154

Of course we love to stand by science. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #39

At least I haven't wasted $45/bottle of vitamin supplements that come out in my pee. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #48

Well phil89 Dec 2013 #130

You said allopathy MattBaggins Dec 2013 #138

''Magic is what we call any science we do not understand.'' ~Arthur C. Clarke DeSwiss Dec 2013 #19

The science of food and its supply is terrifying. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #23

Yep. Which is why I never dismiss out of hand, ideas the scientists would instantly reject as 'woo.' reformist2 Dec 2013 #83

I'd appreciate it if they'd just clean up their own shit first...... DeSwiss Dec 2013 #106

the purveyors of woo aren't the ones that warned you about dangerous or unneeded supplements. CreekDog Dec 2013 #132

We are finally taking a look at antibacterial soaps tavalon Dec 2013 #159

The medical establishment and pellegra: hedgehog Dec 2013 #24

Thank you for sharing this. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #32

Every doctor I've ever asked has said the same thing to me, NO madokie Dec 2013 #33

Then don't. Each person is different, and if you don't have deficiency issues, IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #36

No doctor could tell me why I was infertile, had anemia, food intolerances tavalon Dec 2013 #161

Ya know, the amusing thing is that even tho you grossly misinterpreted the posted article... eqfan592 Dec 2013 #43

Be pissed all you want, but that editorial is right. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #46

Ask a sanitary engineer sometime how many pills, vitamins, & supplements pass completely untouched FSogol Dec 2013 #52

Sigh. Yes. Digestible nutritional supplements are a big deal. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #59

So that article said pregnant women shouldn't take folic acid? Or did you imagine that? cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #62

Amazing, and I believe every word Holly_Hobby Dec 2013 #63

Kids with these trace mineral deficiencies can't get magnesium IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #81

Need a break? Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #69

Yes, thank you. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #86

Idda the article driving this rant does not say nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #75

Nadine, this is what the article says: IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #90

Pregnancy is NOT a chronic condition nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #94

True. But many of the babies/toddlers who have been helped pnwmom Dec 2013 #167

You are extrapolating far beyond what the editorial says. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #135

I consider you an expert on losing credibility CreekDog Dec 2013 #93

Thank you, CreekDog. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #96

lol tammywammy Dec 2013 #102

Oh, Ida! Let me diagnose this as "woo," because it's "anecdotal." Th1onein Dec 2013 #103

The problem is often that folks who think they are 'scientific' are anything but Matariki Dec 2013 #117

There are a group of people on here who are so pro-GMO..... Th1onein Dec 2013 #124

Well you have to think about the audience here on DU that reads this stuff. Rex Dec 2013 #120

Medicine is a big business and like a big business it tends to ossify Vox Moi Dec 2013 #108

I am oh so angry that you helped 121 babies with nutrition renate Dec 2013 #109

Nor does her passion validate her findings Orrex Dec 2013 #110

Tell you what - how about I share my data with you? IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #114

You are welcome to send it, though I claim no expertise in assessing it. Orrex Dec 2013 #119

Thank you. I can't ever forget the 41 it didn't help. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #113

So phil89 Dec 2013 #131

Lookee here, NPR came out with an article about the dangers of vitamin supplements today: Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #111

Its a reference to the article I'm ranting about. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #115

Why are you consulting with veterinarians about child nutrition? Nobody here told you to do that. CreekDog Dec 2013 #118

. CreekDog Dec 2013 #121

You do know that it's illegal to practice Medicine without a license, don't you? NealK Dec 2013 #123

She's not. This is being overseen by an excellent Horse GP for the kid CP. CreekDog Dec 2013 #126

I work with premature infants and disabled infants. This is amazing. Thank you for sharing it.. Squinch Dec 2013 #133

Thank you, Squinch. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #139

Here's some interesting reading: blue neen Dec 2013 #134

Wow, as a NICU nurse who has an 18 year old with autism tavalon Dec 2013 #140

Thanks, Ida! Do you still have a website about this? n/t pnwmom Dec 2013 #166

Yes, but it hasn't been updated for a while. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #173

Here is a simple example of a chronic condition that many adults have pnwmom Dec 2013 #168

Or they could stop eating those Big Macs�, eat more vegetables and save their hearts to boot. DeSwiss Dec 2013 #185

^=== CHEERING! IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #188

Try thinking critically for once. alarimer Dec 2013 #169

It was with trepidation that LWolf Dec 2013 #170

(blush) IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #171

Every time I feel like I'm getting sick Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #175

I can't believe some of the responses OwnedByCats Dec 2013 #176

Thank you. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #198

Great post, Ida. I'm happy to K&R. Kurovski Dec 2013 #194