General Discussion

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)

64. So what's your definition of a police state?

Thu Dec 19, 2013, 10:48 AM

Dec 2013

Because leaving activists and protesters to languish in the criminal justice system on trumped up charges and making their lives hell for months or years at a time is a thing now. Police departments wielding weapons of war against protesters and the general population is a thing. Warrantless wiretapping, uncontrolled intelligence apparati, an inverted justice system, an offshore gulag where prisoners rot for years without trial and face torture...

What is it going to take for you to think "police state"? Midnight abductions, murder in the streets? Because that's never how a police state has operated in its early days. Not in the Soviet Union, not Nazi Germany, and certainly not in post-9/11 America or Western Europe.

Do some reading on how these systems actually form and operate. Seriously, you don't seem to have the slightest idea about these things.

Also, if you were trying to suggest I was falling into the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy, I'll point out it's not a fallacy to make comparisons between police states.

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Former Top NSA Official: �We Are Now In A Police State� [View all] damnedifIknow Dec 2013 OP

HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Dec 2013 #1

I'm with this guy and Judge Leon! JackRiddler Dec 2013 #2

Looks to me that he has an axe to grind. And he has been gone from NSA for 12 years. Tx4obama Dec 2013 #3

Or he has a CONSCIENCE and understands the dangers of a surveillance state Matariki Dec 2013 #5

Well at least we know he's not an Obama hater. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2013 #6

He is a person of prinicple and is widely regarded as such. He knows what he is talking about sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #22

Yes, let's grind that ax and hone it perfectly. How many people are illegally imprisoned? Coyotl Dec 2013 #26

I am sure Congress will be working diligently to find that out, how many have been illegally sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #91

FBI raid? Well, grind my ax. Bush critic? Hone it! Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #54

Yes. He has an ax to grind against the police state that GWB created. Apparently, you support Luminous Animal Dec 2013 #30

Seems it's cool if Obama does it. SammyWinstonJack Dec 2013 #81

This post should be unbelievable. TransitJohn Dec 2013 #45

Funny how those who value civil liberties more than their own jobs have axes to grind EOTE Dec 2013 #86

i can't imagine that you can see much with those blinders affixed frylock Dec 2013 #95

On the contrary, it looks like you have an axe to grind, TX4obama. Th1onein Dec 2013 #108

There are a group of posters that seem to do nothing else Maedhros Dec 2013 #115

I've noticed something about them lately..... Th1onein Dec 2013 #117

My favorite is the old classic: empty ridicule plus smilie. Maedhros Dec 2013 #121

yeah, well... fuck them! fascisthunter Dec 2013 #144

It pains me, though, to see their smarmy nonsense stand unchallenged. Maedhros Dec 2013 #155

I Understand Your Motivation fascisthunter Dec 2013 #166

I think you deserve a police state fascisthunter Dec 2013 #145

And to think ... hedda_foil Dec 2013 #4

Some attorneys focus on a particular area of the law not to protect it but to defeat it. JimDandy Dec 2013 #10

He was NEVER what could be called a "Professor of Constitutional Law, as if it was his speciality. savannah43 Dec 2013 #15

Yeah, me too. RC Dec 2013 #19

That was the prime reason why I shed a tear when he was elected BelgianMadCow Dec 2013 #134

Yup. Me too. Funny how that "worked" out... truebrit71 Dec 2013 #163

K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R, K&R. woo me with science Dec 2013 #7

I received a five minute scolding from one of my poli sci professors OnyxCollie Dec 2013 #8

I would say to that professor . . . markpkessinger Dec 2013 #11

He said that if this were a totalitarian state OnyxCollie Dec 2013 #12

Very naive prof! n/t markpkessinger Dec 2013 #13

Many are unfamiliar with inverted totalitarianism nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #14

Even North Korea does not lock everyone up. zeemike Dec 2013 #28

He's not thinking of a police state, he's thinking of a slave state like Ancient Rome. sibelian Dec 2013 #36

I think I read that on DU the other day, too. woo me with science Dec 2013 #39

Point of totalitarianism: you don't have to lock everyone up. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #58

So 300,000,000 people are being cowed? I don't see the evidence for that. randome Dec 2013 #62

No. Most don't give a shit, as in most all countries. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #83

Well stated! randome Dec 2013 #88

Thank you. In the "golden age" of MSM, issues were national, Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #107

I think it's call a "straw man" argument when you misrepresent an argument then argue against it. rhett o rick Dec 2013 #111

Yet no one has been singled out. You are chasing phantoms. randome Dec 2013 #124

Apparently you arent keeping up. They have more than meta-data. rhett o rick Dec 2013 #128

Did you read the article? LiberalLovinLug Dec 2013 #130

I found a thread that I think you will like. rhett o rick Dec 2013 #143

Why would I discount this since there is clear evidence it is occurring? randome Dec 2013 #148

The posts shows that there is a market for personal data. The NSA has the capability to get rhett o rick Dec 2013 #149

I totally agree about not being naive. randome Dec 2013 #159

With respect, you dont know what data Snowden got his hands on any more than I. You dont know what rhett o rick Dec 2013 #160

When you have to start an argument with "if this were a totalitarian state," you're in denial. n/t winter is coming Dec 2013 #66

Indeed tavalon Dec 2013 #101

Thanks. I was a little surprised (and grateful) than no one else had already claimed it. n/t winter is coming Dec 2013 #132

That is my definition of stress tavalon Dec 2013 #100

& Obama has locked up millions, or tens of thousands at least Kolesar Dec 2013 #136

Exactly. People think the internet guarantees your freedom. indie9197 Dec 2013 #33

Circulating preposterous scenarios is a variation of a straw man argument. GoneFishin Dec 2013 #46

Facebook is one of the most powerful tools available to the NSA BlueStreak Dec 2013 #55

I swear, if the NSA odffered a new line of dual core, 64GB tracking chips BlueStreak Dec 2013 #57

Ah, you've been watching Person Of Interest tavalon Dec 2013 #102

One lives and hopes. savannah43 Dec 2013 #16

Unless, of course, they created Facebook to collect our information! Coyotl Dec 2013 #27

That would not be surprising at all. It was one of the first such forums to ask for so much personal sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #47

No Facebook Account here either, bvar22 Dec 2013 #125

I was asked my name and email address... Dr Hobbitstein Dec 2013 #129

Thats OK. You go right ahead. bvar22 Dec 2013 #142

Your professor had better hope they don't decide to take down the stage setting tavalon Dec 2013 #98

Introduce the Prof to Sheldon Wolin davekriss Dec 2013 #112

Technically he is correct. We are not yet in a totalitarian state per the definition. We may be rhett o rick Dec 2013 #114

In order to save face, OnyxCollie Dec 2013 #119

Well dont leave us in suspenders, what grade did you get? rhett o rick Dec 2013 #140

Like he thinks we haven't known that!! Why is it that no one can quite grasp a reality until some ancianita Dec 2013 #9

May I suggest that everyone buy a horse, too, and learn how to ride it. savannah43 Dec 2013 #17

I did not know WHAT they were using this data for. I did not know they were passing it along to sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #49

the info supporting binney's statement came out last august questionseverything Dec 2013 #151

Thank you, yes I remember that, that they were using the info to funnel to the DEA, but I did not sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #157

the nsa reduces us to questionseverything Dec 2013 #162

Great! Details! That are impossible to investigate with the PPPP in place, even for judges. ancianita Dec 2013 #153

Are you familiar with Binney at all? Binney is an NSA Whistle Blower who did NOT wait 'all this sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #156

Thank you. I'm not familiar with him. I'm now enlightened that he's been a crucial whistleblower. ancianita Dec 2013 #158

No problem, and I agree with you that people get tired of seeing the crimes exposed only to see sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #161

OK, mine is a stupid little anecdote, but I'm sure there are many more where like it so here goes... Snarkoleptic Dec 2013 #18

Same thing happened to me damnedifIknow Dec 2013 #35

There oughta be a law! FrodosPet Dec 2013 #20

At this point, christx30 Dec 2013 #21

They're spying on us (and, everybody else) to protect us from tyranny where everybody is spied on. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2013 #23

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local Coyotl Dec 2013 #24

Jeezus F'ing Christ, Phlem Dec 2013 #25

9/11 was just the Excuse. A Police State is the Goal. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #29

They started this crap BEFORE 911 Th1onein Dec 2013 #110

Well, duh! AgingAmerican Dec 2013 #31

In other breaking news, water is wet. nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #32

Yes, but fish don't know they are wet. Nor do those living in the tblue37 Dec 2013 #34

We knew, and we still could speak to friends and stuff. nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #89

But we're not in a police state.. sendero Dec 2013 #37

I'm sure people reading his article, while sitting in a coffee shop, JoePhilly Dec 2013 #38

The sad thing is damnedifIknow Dec 2013 #40

Now let's ask our totalitarian police state to provide Nationalized Health care. JoePhilly Dec 2013 #42

First world problems. joshcryer Dec 2013 #41

I get a kick out of anonymous people, using fake names, JoePhilly Dec 2013 #43

The real irony is if we had a absolutely free state... joshcryer Dec 2013 #44

Oh bull. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...... Th1onein Dec 2013 #109

So long as they don't exercise their first Amendment rights to protest, or become active in trying sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #51

Put it much more eloquently than I did. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #56

Now let's have our police state control health care. JoePhilly Dec 2013 #59

You're on the wrong axis. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #61

The authoritarians would use your JoePhilly Dec 2013 #63

That argument makes no sense at all. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #65

If we CURRENTLY live in a police state, the last thing you would want, at JoePhilly Dec 2013 #69

You've demonstrated consistently you don't know what a police state is. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #76

A police state, with control of the health care system, would JoePhilly Dec 2013 #79

Thank you. Bobbie Jo Dec 2013 #150

A police state doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil to be a police state. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #52

Ah, so we're pre nazi Germany again. JoePhilly Dec 2013 #60

So what's your definition of a police state? NuclearDem Dec 2013 #64

How many activists were mistreated, do you think? Less than one percent maybe? randome Dec 2013 #68

By freaking out, they ensure that answers to your questions JoePhilly Dec 2013 #71

Railing against an imaginary police state is easier than dealing with the real problems we face. randome Dec 2013 #74

It reminds me of ... JoePhilly Dec 2013 #77

A very interesting intersection, indeed. randome Dec 2013 #84

That is a very astute observation hueymahl Dec 2013 #131

Not every single activist has to be brutalized for the police to make their point. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #73

I think one of the recommendations for the NSA is to have a 'defendant advocate'. randome Dec 2013 #75

Except it took a document leak to even start the debate over the NSA. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #78

Well, they got 'caught' using a legal warrant. I guess we won't agree on how important that is. randome Dec 2013 #82

It got caught with a general warrant for Verizon's American customers. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #87

Your hyperbole is showing. JoePhilly Dec 2013 #70

I sense that you agree with Professor Stupid tavalon Dec 2013 #103

no, I'm home using paid wi-fi, drinking a beer and smoking a cigar fascisthunter Dec 2013 #146

We can't be in a police state. We have coffee, and wifi, and stuff. GoneFishin Dec 2013 #48

Cue the milk pic! NuclearDem Dec 2013 #50

One of Mussolini's first programs FatBuddy Dec 2013 #80

And health care! LondonReign2 Dec 2013 #138

It's hyperbole like this that make people tune out. randome Dec 2013 #53

It isn't hyperbole Harmony Blue Dec 2013 #72

If we are CURRENTLY a police state ... JoePhilly Dec 2013 #85

It's only hyperbole to those who believe they are safe from being targeted. But to the thousands sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #90

'Thousands'? More hyperbole. randome Dec 2013 #92

Thousands of OWS protesters were falsely arrested and jailed. Are you calling facts 'hyperbole' now? sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #94

Here in Portland the FBI raided a house and arrested squatters involved in anti-corporate protests. Maedhros Dec 2013 #118

I guess we don't have to wonder where they got their info anymore. sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #122

Just ignore it and it will go away. GoneFishin Dec 2013 #67

Police state and Democracy can not co-exist. L0oniX Dec 2013 #93

There doesn't seem to be a lot of remorse from Binney, considering he was one of the architects... Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #96

Every couple of years he comes out with some new 'revelation' about the NSA. randome Dec 2013 #97

Before you get all judgmental... (too late) OnyxCollie Dec 2013 #104

ok...Thanks for this.... Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #105

Some definitions and other info might help see more clearly. Mosaic Dec 2013 #99

It's getting very scary. Mojo Electro Dec 2013 #106

''Told ya!!!'' DeSwiss Dec 2013 #113

Recommend! KoKo Dec 2013 #116

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #120

You're welcome but I don't like reading it damnedifIknow Dec 2013 #127

Checks And Balances colsohlibgal Dec 2013 #123

Looks like the 0.0001% couldn't care less about neither 'our' liberty or security. Amonester Dec 2013 #126

I'm going to do myself a favor and bypass the nauseating pro-tolalitarian responses K&R whatchamacallit Dec 2013 #133

then you are making good use of your day Kolesar Dec 2013 #135

Knock, Knock, Knockin' on Stalin's door. K&R Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2013 #137

Seems that way damnedifIknow Dec 2013 #141

Unfortunately it looks grim sadoldgirl Dec 2013 #139

Don't be sad. Betsy Ross Dec 2013 #152

I Noticed Something Very Interesting fascisthunter Dec 2013 #147

Now? This started under Bush. knitter4democracy Dec 2013 #154

Or here. Posted upthread, but it bears repeating. ancianita Dec 2013 #165

K&R woo me with science Dec 2013 #164

kick woo me with science Dec 2013 #167