Goodbye. Goodbye. GOODBYE. Get the fuck out already.

[badtoworse]

47. I don't think $19k is excessive, but I do think you're missing the point.

Look at what actually is happening in Detroit. The city owes around $15 billion to various creditors including the pensioners and current workers. It doesn't have the money to pay these creditors; has filed for bankruptcy and the judge has allowed the bankruptcy to proceed. That means that everyone to whom Detroit owes money is going to get less than they were expecting. In this bankruptcy, the workers and the pensioners have the status of unsecured creditors which puts them behind secured creditors, like the holders of Detroit's bonds, in allocating who gets what share of the assets that Detroit currently has. As I understand things, (I'm not a lawyer), the pension fund assets are not immune from being used to pay creditors other than the retirees. That means that the pension fund money gets thrown into the pot from which all of the creditors will be paid. Because the bondholders are secured creditors, they will get a substantial amount of the money that was supposed to have been used to fund pensions. The estimated numbers I've seen have the bondholders getting 60 - 70 cents on the dollar and the pensioners / workers getting 15 - 20 cents on the dollar. I don't think it's fair, but that is my understanding of how things work in a bankruptcy proceeding. (Perhaps a bankruptcy attorney or someone with more expertise will weigh in and correct me if I'm wrong).

Detroit's workers and pensioners are getting a pretty rotten deal, especially since the pension funds are apparently well funded. When I say it doesn't make any difference how the city went bankrupt, I'm looking at it from a purely practical standpoint - the city is broke. The unions had to decide what to do when the city was trying to cut deals with its creditors and avoid bankruptcy. Detroits unions chose to stand pat and not negotiate. Was that the best strategy? You tell me - it's hard to imagine a worse outcome than 15 - 20 cents on the dollar for people who opted out of Social Security. What would you have done if it was your call?

The looking forward question is what should a union should do if that scenario seems likely to play out with its city? If the city does go broke and files for bankrupcty, it seems likely to me that they could get screwed the same way Detroit's pensioners likely will be. If it were up to me, I'd cut a deal to avoid bankruptcy that was contingent on everyone taking an agreed upon haircut.

You've been calling me a RW troll, but all I'm trying to do is look at a huge problem in very practical terms. I don't see this being solved at the federal level. Other than insulting me, do you have any answers?