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sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)

37. Tell that to Ron Wyden who warned us as much as he could that we knew very little about what they

Fri Dec 20, 2013, 12:40 PM

Dec 2013

were up to and that if we did, we would be very angry. He was right, we are. Thanks to Snowden for helping Wyden and Udall and a few others who took their oaths of office seriously, we now have an idea of what Wyden was not free to tell us, but definitely tried to issue warnings about it.

None of this would be happening if it wasn't for Snowden, period. No use even trying to defend it all. Obama even AFTER the revelations told us that they were not 'using' the data for one thing, we know now that is not true.

But who would be surprised at any of it when after we elected Dems to get rid of Bush loyalists in our government like Clapper and Alexander eg, that for some reason didn't happen. Right Wingers like them can not be expected to respect the rights of the people to freedom from Government spying, it was their Boss who escalated these egregious programs.

And why any democrat who was outraged when we first found out about the collaboration of the Government with Telecoms under Bush, now be trying to defend it?

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"NONE of this would have happened without the revelations by Edward J. Snowden" [View all] kpete Dec 2013 OP

I hope, here, on DU, we can finally put to rest the destractor tavalon Dec 2013 #1

So? randome Dec 2013 #2

Snowdens fans have no understanding of nuance. baldguy Dec 2013 #4

"Anyone who really understands what metadata is knows that it is anonymous by its very nature" Ratty Dec 2013 #11

The poster knows that. They just hope YOU don't. Pholus Dec 2013 #14

Metadata includes IP addresses Ratty Dec 2013 #17

Actually, your first link concerns Internet metadata, not telephony metadata. randome Dec 2013 #48

Just can't stop digging, can you? bvar22 Dec 2013 #93

Saying metadata is not anonymous is like saying water is not wet. baldguy Dec 2013 #115

I'm not sure whos teaching you about metadata, but you might want a refund... TampaAnimusVortex Dec 2013 #128

Thank you for proving my point. baldguy Dec 2013 #134

You have to read ALL the words... TampaAnimusVortex Dec 2013 #145

When you have less than no idea what you're saying, maybe you shouldn't say it. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #23

lol, oh you.... alato Dec 2013 #39

BS! I and appreciate both Obama and Snowden. roody Dec 2013 #42

What is funny here is that immediately after Snowden exposed the NSA, some here rhett o rick Dec 2013 #103

Racist, ratfucker, Paulite, ... MannyGoldstein Dec 2013 #127

When we have folks like christx30 Dec 2013 #5

Sure, Clapper lied about something that was common knowledge since 2006. randome Dec 2013 #7

Don't forget the boxes in his garage! Marr Dec 2013 #40

Fair point. randome Dec 2013 #45

He got the information out there. christx30 Dec 2013 #58

All not true. There were things constantly being done about it and it was in the news. stevenleser Dec 2013 #60

So you can rationalize away Clapper lying to Congress? I bet you wouldnt let Snowden get away rhett o rick Dec 2013 #104

Anyone with an open mind sees the collaboration of a Government agency with private communication sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #6

You're talking about what MIGHT happen. And it's something to consider. randome Dec 2013 #10

Huh, this summer we were debating garage boxes and who is a libertarian rat copulator. Pholus Dec 2013 #15

Well, you weren't debating those 'issues' with me. randome Dec 2013 #18

In your particular case that is true. But the security state kind of Pholus Dec 2013 #20

Are you trying to say you haven't been shilling for the NSA for 6 months now? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #25

I think I'll say Randome has been an interesting debater... Pholus Dec 2013 #27

My 'position' is never set in concrete. If I have 'shifted' to any degree, it's because... randome Dec 2013 #33

Get ready to do some more shifting, in that case. DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #114

Well don't listen to Congress for the truth as per your own post, they don't care if it's a lie Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #118

'most people already know better.' Rex Dec 2013 #101

Ah, now I see why you hold the views you do. You don't know what Snowden exposed: sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #22

But all those documents he released can be viewed from other points of view. randome Dec 2013 #29

Well you have to respect the Constitution in order to understand that he has exposed crimes. sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #65

FYI: Those discussions were already happening in the exec branch and congress. We didnt need Snowden stevenleser Dec 2013 #9

Maybe he didn't speed it up -and maybe, as you say, he slowed it down- but he did shine a big... randome Dec 2013 #13

Here is a good timeline by EFF. There has been steady stuff going on for years stevenleser Dec 2013 #16

Wow. A lot was going on for a long time before Snowden. randome Dec 2013 #21

And it's going to continue at that pace, Snowden or no Snowden stevenleser Dec 2013 #43

LOL, 67 incidents reported in your link in the second half of 2013 vs 7, 8, 11 incidents riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #49

That is actually not correct. It contains more now because it was created in the June-Dec timeline stevenleser Dec 2013 #52

So you put it out there as some kind of definitive source riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #66

+1... that was hilarious. Marr Dec 2013 #97

Oh My. bvar22 Dec 2013 #122

deceptive practices Enthusiast Dec 2013 #135

He shined a spotlight on himself treestar Dec 2013 #34

They must have been very 'secret' since a majority of the people did not know eg, how the NSA has sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #28

See my #16. that is not the case. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #36

I saw your #16 which doesn't answer my question. What did YOU know that the rest of us who sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #47

Snowden dramatically changed the exposure of the NSA as demonstrated by the EFF link riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #50

No, as I noted above, that's not correct. It contains more recent citations because it was created stevenleser Dec 2013 #53

Then its distorting the facts by being incomplete riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #70

Wow, usually I think you tend to be right, but if you actually believe Snowden had no impact.... Logical Dec 2013 #64

This has got to be your worst performance yet. Luminous Animal Dec 2013 #84

Oh, but you have to read the timeline. Marr Dec 2013 #100

pffft L0oniX Dec 2013 #26

Your wrong he didn't make any moral decisions for you upaloopa Dec 2013 #55

Anyone who was paying attention knew there was a debate going on. See my #16 stevenleser Dec 2013 #59

There is only one side to the metadata issue. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #81

Of course the government has the capacity to do almost anything. That's not going to change. randome Dec 2013 #85

Here is how it is different. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #92

I understand the possibilities of abuse very well. randome Dec 2013 #95

I do have a problem with the NSA keeping the metadata, a big problem. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #98

Excellent points......nt Enthusiast Dec 2013 #137

yes we do G_j Dec 2013 #130

They lost whatever trust they may have had when Clapper out right lied to Congress and the American Dustlawyer Dec 2013 #3

I have no way to moparlunatic Dec 2013 #8

According to Whistle Blower, Binney, you are correct, they are collecting every email, phone call sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #32

What could they possibly treestar Dec 2013 #35

I believe we now know some of what they are doing with it. And it is pretty shocking frankly. sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #61

Like what? treestar Dec 2013 #107

You don't have to worry unless you are out there protesting against the drone warfare or the sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #116

Cite one example of a person who has been treestar Dec 2013 #119

One? How about thousands? How about being brutally beaten and pepper sprayed by Robo Cops sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #129

So cite 5 real examples treestar Dec 2013 #141

Somebody gave them names and addresses to raid. I wonder where they got those names and addresses sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #146

You bet they are collecting content and storing it. Th1onein Dec 2013 #68

This old empire is pretty rotten in the core. JEB Dec 2013 #12

Snowden may in fact have bought us enough time to reverse or at least attenuate boomersense Dec 2013 #19

He really didn't as my link in #16 illustrates. stevenleser Dec 2013 #24

Tell that to Ron Wyden who warned us as much as he could that we knew very little about what they sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #37

The EFF timeline completely contradicts your story. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #38

So Ron Wyden was lying when he told us we would be angry IF we knew what they were up to, and sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #44

Let me know when you have read the EFF timeline. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #46

Well, you still haven't answered my question. So here's another, why did Clapper lie to Ron Wyden sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #62

Let me know when you have read the EFF timeline. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #63

Instead of posting duplicate posts, why don't you provide a link to the EFF timeline? Th1onein Dec 2013 #71

Let me know when you can answer my very simple questions. Why did Clapper lie if we all knew sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #69

" continuous litigation, hearings and other things going on regarding FISA and the NSA for years"... boomersense Dec 2013 #54

It's still going to go on ad infinitum. Snowden didn't change that. stevenleser Dec 2013 #57

Don't want to argue with you. nft boomersense Dec 2013 #76

It is funny how naive you are to not understand the outrage Snowden caused..... Logical Dec 2013 #72

He can't possibly know how bad his argument looks with the EFF link he's posted riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #74

What is the cost effectiveness of the NSA and or DHS??? Is that a secret too? L0oniX Dec 2013 #30

Billions for Security Contractors? sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #41

Yep ...we are in MORE DANGER than ever all right ...from our own government! L0oniX Dec 2013 #123

NSA surveillance is like the "war on drugs"� . Enthusiast Dec 2013 #140

Yep. His shining the light on the dark doings of the spies has sent ripples around the world. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2013 #31

k&r idwiyo Dec 2013 #51

Well, he Dem-washed another Neocon depravity, but other than that . . . ucrdem Dec 2013 #56

You've got to be kidding? Th1onein Dec 2013 #73

Seriously? What Snowden showed is the NSA is under control. ucrdem Dec 2013 #77

That's laughable. Do you understand that the NSA is NOT supposed to spy on Americans? Th1onein Dec 2013 #78

Collecting "telephony metadata" with a warrant is not illegal. ucrdem Dec 2013 #79

You are missing the point: the NSA is not supposed to be collecting info on AMERICANS. Th1onein Dec 2013 #82

I get that. But without knowing why they issued the warrant ucrdem Dec 2013 #83

Let me tell you why it is NOT legal. Th1onein Dec 2013 #87

At the moment, it's legal. ucrdem Dec 2013 #89

Sorry, that's not the way it works. Th1onein Dec 2013 #90

A Bush-appointed judge waggled his wig. ucrdem Dec 2013 #91

I don't get your point. Th1onein Dec 2013 #94

Look up Richard "almost Orwellian" Leon. nt ucrdem Dec 2013 #96

Nah, not going to bother. You are the one making a point; it's up to you to explain. Th1onein Dec 2013 #102

Paulbot leaker + Bushbot judge = FOXbot hero. ucrdem Dec 2013 #106

Geez. Are you serious? Th1onein Dec 2013 #108

FOX: "Why Judge Leon is right about NSA spying" ucrdem Dec 2013 #109

Wow. Your argument is really bad. Th1onein Dec 2013 #110

People see what they want to see and disregard the rest. ucrdem Dec 2013 #112

And all of the FISA judges are appointed by right winger John Roberts. Do you have neverforget Dec 2013 #113

It is legal if it comes from FISC treestar Dec 2013 #120

"The law, in its majestic equality, Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #125

Warrants? From a 'Secret Court'? When I learned we were spied on by sabrina 1 Dec 2013 #131

Meanwhile Chelsea Manning has become a largely forgotten persona non grata... Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #67

Im sure the treatment of Manning, Binney etc riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #75

A situation that our "transparent" government would like to put Snowden in. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2013 #88

Just the truth malaise Dec 2013 #80

Thanks, Mr. Snowden. Orsino Dec 2013 #86

K & fookin' R! AzDar Dec 2013 #99

Also brought to us by the letter Y and the number 8. nt MrScorpio Dec 2013 #105

Spoken like a paranoid Libertarian of the Rand kind. Whisp Dec 2013 #111

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Dec 2013 #117

indeed - history will absolve him - if freedom and democracy survives Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #121

K&R Never in history has power taken not been abused. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #124

Recommend jsr Dec 2013 #126

K&R woo me with science Dec 2013 #132

Edward Snowden, a true Hero for We the People. 99Forever Dec 2013 #133

Great quote from Snowden! another_liberal Dec 2013 #136

K&R NealK Dec 2013 #138

He has arisen. gulliver Dec 2013 #139

kick Oilwellian Dec 2013 #142

My opinion, ANYONE supporting any data collection on US citizens without warrant PowerToThePeople Dec 2013 #143

I am glad Snowden did what he did. bigwillq Dec 2013 #144