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intaglio

(8,170 posts)

95. Ok, so you are talking about current law

Fri Dec 20, 2013, 03:12 PM

Dec 2013

Which is based upon the judgment of the USSC that used that idiom

But my contention was that the use of that idiom provided a false prop to the decision ...

And I was wrong there are 2 cases which may have been used to justify Holmes' tale

The Surrey Gardens Disaster in 1856

And the Italian Hall disaster in 1913

I'll be posting more detail below.

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Can we finally kill the meme about shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre? [View all] intaglio Dec 2013 OP

meme? pipoman Dec 2013 #1

But it is used all the time regarding limitations to free speech intaglio Dec 2013 #2

It is an excellent example of the limitations on free speech Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #3

Check the BBC recording intaglio Dec 2013 #4

The significant part of Holmes' dictum Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #19

And how do you distinguish the cases? intaglio Dec 2013 #41

So you are saying that it SHOULD be okay to go into a crowded theater and announce VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #51

Firstly you are assuming that panic will automatically ensue intaglio Dec 2013 #62

"firstly" we know that this happens... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #72

How do you know "this happens"? intaglio Dec 2013 #91

Actually YES you can....you can even be arresteprosecuted for assault just for threatening someone VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #93

Ok, so you are talking about current law intaglio Dec 2013 #95

I am talking about common sense... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #102

Then get the 1st amendment changed no further text. intaglio Dec 2013 #106

I don't have to....that would be you...I agree that if you pull the fire alarm... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #109

In pre-history, marybourg Dec 2013 #90

One could be charged with manslaughter, if people were killed... Kaleva Dec 2013 #81

The pulling the Fire Alarm in the next building you enter and see if there is a law against it! VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #103

No it's not the same thing Kaleva Dec 2013 #110

Yes it is...if there is no fire... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #111

There's a difference between panic and lawless behaviour Kaleva Dec 2013 #112

You seem determined to misunderstand Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #71

Hypothetical means that it reflects reality intaglio Dec 2013 #84

So, according to you, if you falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theater Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #115

No I have shown that a shout of "Fire" or ... intaglio Dec 2013 #118

I agree that you have not shown that a shout of "fire" will not cause a panic Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #119

Proof - if fire alarms caused panics, why are they used to alert occupants of buildings? intaglio Dec 2013 #121

USSC reversed itself on that sometime ago. Kaleva Dec 2013 #78

So you are claiming that falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater and causing a panic is now OK? Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #116

One can be held liable for whatever happens after doing so. Kaleva Dec 2013 #123

Just what is the difference between falsely crying "fire" and falsely pulling a fire alarm? Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #125

Read the laws regarding fire alarms Kaleva Dec 2013 #126

So you cannot give me a specific difference, just some narrowly drawn laws. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #127

I gave you a specific difference Kaleva Dec 2013 #128

Yes, you gave me a specific difference Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #129

It's meant to distinguish something treestar Dec 2013 #5

But false claims of fire do not induce panic any more than actual claims of the ceiling falling intaglio Dec 2013 #6

If there actually is a fire in the theater treestar Dec 2013 #11

The example shows that shouting to induce flight does not work intaglio Dec 2013 #14

I don't see that as credulous treestar Dec 2013 #15

Exactly, you would be ready to leave intaglio Dec 2013 #21

If someone screams "DUCK!" Kelvin Mace Dec 2013 #98

Have you ever tried that? intaglio Dec 2013 #100

Somepeople freeze Kelvin Mace Dec 2013 #108

It's not speech, it's an act treestar Dec 2013 #99

If the shouter had had the presence of mind to be more explicit, people might have responded. Denzil_DC Dec 2013 #16

I have noted elsewhere intaglio Dec 2013 #23

That's obviously the ax you're trying to grind. Denzil_DC Dec 2013 #29

I did read the (several) articles intaglio Dec 2013 #35

WTF does that have to do with the statement you are opposing? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #58

"I'll post the links to the Hitchens videos in a couple of minutes." Denzil_DC Dec 2013 #59

He seems to be forgetting what happened at that fire in the venue that Great White VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #57

Errm - you mean there was a fire and people panicked intaglio Dec 2013 #73

NO I am saying that even Great White got sued.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #76

and I am saying that the you are using a false example intaglio Dec 2013 #82

Look its about being held responsible for the aftermath of shouting "FIRE".... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #55

And my point is that that aftermath does not exist intaglio Dec 2013 #74

but it CAN....its not JUST about yelling FIRE...there are any number of words... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #77

and my point again is that false alarms do not do what OWH said they did intaglio Dec 2013 #83

You have no point....you are defending the indefensible.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #85

So you are using a different case entirely? intaglio Dec 2013 #87

It isn't a threat. But it would be the better example to use kcr Dec 2013 #92

So can you pull a fire alarm in a building and not face charges? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #104

Of course, criminal damage if nothing else intaglio Dec 2013 #107

It's only one example, and it's a terrible one. Captain Stern Dec 2013 #69

I have given 2 examples of actual danger intaglio Dec 2013 #79

Back when the most buildings were made of wood, did not have sprinklers or smoke detectors... Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #27

Evidence? intaglio Dec 2013 #40

History is full of actual theater fires, the Apollo London had no fire. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #53

It just shows that even as smart as most people are these days, we take some things for granted. Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #131

Google is your friend. IdaBriggs Dec 2013 #54

For which? The word "FIRE" causing fear in people at that time or current mob panic? Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #130

An example. antiquie Dec 2013 #56

Can we finally kill the word "meme"? scheming daemons Dec 2013 #7

It is a very useful word intaglio Dec 2013 #9

No one word Proud Public Servant Dec 2013 #22

No, it was coined as a term for a self perpetuating mode of thought intaglio Dec 2013 #26

So anything that illustates an idea is a meme? Proud Public Servant Dec 2013 #49

You aren't the only one jberryhill Dec 2013 #101

This is a perfect example of the kind of thread that clutters up DU reformist2 Dec 2013 #8

So a post about a false equivalence used to justify restrictions on free speech is clutter intaglio Dec 2013 #10

What you don't like it? treestar Dec 2013 #12

and the odd compulsion to participate in them. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #31

No. kcr Dec 2013 #13

But Holmes based his decision regarding rights not upon the actual for harm from a claim intaglio Dec 2013 #17

Well, yes. kcr Dec 2013 #25

The argument you are using here presupposes that you can read the intent of the speaker intaglio Dec 2013 #30

Or if someone repeatedly yells fire in theaters where there are none kcr Dec 2013 #33

Nope ... intaglio Dec 2013 #38

Well, fortunately you're wrong kcr Dec 2013 #42

I've asked you to prove intent intaglio Dec 2013 #44

Who said false claims only induce panic? kcr Dec 2013 #48

apparently, you're not familiar with the function of the conjunction 'and' Viking12 Dec 2013 #96

it worked better in the gaslight era when theaters regularly caught fire. Warren Stupidity Dec 2013 #32

That's true kcr Dec 2013 #34

They did - at Aurora n/t intaglio Dec 2013 #37

An actual gun was used in Aurora kcr Dec 2013 #43

Because in an actual incident no panic was caused intaglio Dec 2013 #45

No panic? kcr Dec 2013 #46

But Holmes claim was that the false claim would induce panic. intaglio Dec 2013 #52

What? kcr Dec 2013 #60

You are claiming that Holmes was correct in his assumption that the audience would panic intaglio Dec 2013 #64

Wow, with all these claims I'm making! kcr Dec 2013 #65

So now you are saying that Holmes was incorrect intaglio Dec 2013 #70

Of course Holmes was incorrect kcr Dec 2013 #75

OOOPS may well be, if so sorry intaglio Dec 2013 #80

You're being deliberately dense. GeorgeGist Dec 2013 #113

And my point was that such a false claim would not induce panic intaglio Dec 2013 #114

And exit doors didn't have those "panic bars" that they have now n/t arcane1 Dec 2013 #61

It's a legal phrase that was used to justify jailing antiwar protestors Recursion Dec 2013 #18

Yep. And that decision was overturned many years ago. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #20

Nope, it was upheld by the Supreme Court under Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in 1919 intaglio Dec 2013 #24

Yes: SCOTUS can reverse its own decisions in subsequent cases. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #28

Ah limited - not "overturned" intaglio Dec 2013 #36

Yes, it was overturned. They threw out Schenck's very broad "clear and present danger" NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #50

I've mentioned the Christopher Hitchens lectures several times intaglio Dec 2013 #39

WTH? It's not a "meme." Lex Dec 2013 #47

Two points nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #63

The point is not where the event took place intaglio Dec 2013 #67

Lemme see, from the reports from the scene a warning was sounded nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #68

I do not think a small fire would have any different affect intaglio Dec 2013 #86

That is a really bizarre conclusion to draw from this news event Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #66

Name one intaglio Dec 2013 #88

Here's one Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #105

What does a USSC ruling have to do with a tragedy in England? Blue_Tires Dec 2013 #89

For what feels like the umpteenth time intaglio Dec 2013 #94

Yes, because the cry was false Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #120

I have demonstrated that the assumption that the crowd will panic is false intaglio Dec 2013 #122

No, you have ASSERTED that the assumption that the crowd will panic is false. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #124

Actual panics and perhaps apologies to OWH intaglio Dec 2013 #97

If it were in the US, he should have shouted "Bengazi!" rucky Dec 2013 #117