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In reply to the discussion: Can we finally kill the meme about shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre? [View all]Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)130. For which? The word "FIRE" causing fear in people at that time or current mob panic?
http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2013/03/04/please-stop-using-the-fire-in-a-crowded-theater-metaphor/
I DON'T Agree with Holmes using the analogy as a way to censor someone in legitimate free speech acts, but the actual limit of NOT doing something stupid that might cause a whole group to riot or panic is still valid.
http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/17/falsely-shouting-fire-in-a-theater-how-a-forgotten-labor-struggle-became-a-national-obsession-and-emblem-of-our-constitutional-faith/
On Christmas Eve in 1913, the Ladies Auxiliary of the Western Federation of Miners local in Calumet, Michigan, held a party for the children of copper miners who had been on strike against their employer, the Calumet and Hecla Mining Company, since July. About 500 children and 175 adults packed the second-floor auditorium of the Italian Hall in Red Jacket, a small mining town on the Keweenaw Peninsula, which juts out onto Lake Superior. The miners were mostly immigrants from the peripheries of EuropeFinland, Italy, and the Balkansbut their children were one in their quest for the nuts, candy, and presents from Santa that the Ladies Auxiliary had provided.
As the children lined up in the front of the large room, someone shouted Fire. Nobody smelled smoke or saw flames, but the panicked children and adults rushed to the main exit at the back of the hall. They raced down the stairway, a few stumbled on the steep steps, others piled on top of them, and still others, unable to stop the onrush behind them, piled on top of the pile.
The stampede was over in minutes. The tangle of bodies in the stairway was so dense that rescuers out on the street could not pull any victims out from the bottom. They had to go through the hall and lift them from the top. Seventy-four people died, most of them children, some still clutching their Christmas presents.
To this day, no one knows who, if anyone, shouted fire. One possible explanation is that a child had fainted and that someone cried for water. Wateror its Finnish equivalent vettäsounds like watra, which means fire in Serbo-Croatian. Many witnesses, however, claim that they saw a man with a Citizens Alliancea local anti-union group of businessmenbutton on his lapel enter the hall, shout fire, and run down the stairs. To their dying day, survivors claimed that the stampede was the work of a company man.
FIRE KILLED BACK THEN. BIG TIME. READ YOUR HISTORY. LABOR UNIONS FOUGHT FOR BETTER CONDITIONS AFTER THE TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FACTORY FIRE because it was tantamount to murder by the owners.
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/p/trianglefire.htm
Historical Importance of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire March 25, 1911:
A fire at the Triangle Waist Company factory in New York City killed 146 workers. The large number of deaths exposed the dangerous conditions in high-rise factories and prompted the creation of new building, fire, and safety codes around the United States.
SO YOU NEVER HEARD OF THE SAN FRANCISCO "FIRE" actually MANY fires, but it was so bad the whole city burned more than once.
http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist1/fire.html
SAN FRANCISCO began its history in a baptism of fires. Hardly had the Gold Rush of 49 assembled a nondescript collection of wooden houses, tents, the hulks of ships, anything, in fact, to afford protection to the ever-increasing multitudes gathering from the four corners of the earth, but a disastrous fire wiped out the most important part of the new city.
Six fires in the first two or three years of her history caused the people to make extraordinary efforts to protect themselves against their recurrence. It was from this determination that the present efficient fire-fighting force sprang. Yet fires continue and will continue, as they did in those early days, and the price of eternal vigilance and preventive methods are the two chief auxiliaries at least of equal importance to force itself.
.....
The first of the great fires that visited San Francisco occurred at 6 oclock on the morning of December 24, 1849, when it was estimated that $1,000,000 worth of property was destroyed.
Six months later, on May 4, 1850, the second great fire occurred. It began at 4 oclock in the morning and by 11 oclock three blocks of the most valuable buildings in the City had been destroyed, with an attendant loss of property estimated to be $4,000,000.

Even in THIS millennium people have trampled over one another on Black Fridays.
http://blackfridaydeathcount.com/
IN OTHER COUNTRIES
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-44906/120-trampled-death-soccer-stadium-panic.html
120 trampled to death in soccer stadium panic
At least 120 fans died and hundreds more were injured after a stampede at a football match in Ghana last night.
It is the third soccer stadium disaster to strike Africa inside a month.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38393697/#.UrX8d7TdfTs
BERLIN Crowds of people streaming into a techno music festival surged through an already jammed entry tunnel on Saturday, setting off a panic that killed 19 people and injured 342 at an event meant to celebrate love and peace.
The circumstances of the stampede at the famed Love Parade festival were still not clear even hours after the chaos, but it appeared that some or most of the 19 had been crushed to death.
http://www.buwor.com/india-89-people-killed-trampled-due-panic/#.UrX-FrTdfTs
MORE?
http://listverse.com/2010/11/26/10-tragic-human-panics-and-stampedes/
I DON'T Agree with Holmes using the analogy as a way to censor someone in legitimate free speech acts, but the actual limit of NOT doing something stupid that might cause a whole group to riot or panic is still valid.
http://crookedtimber.org/2013/02/17/falsely-shouting-fire-in-a-theater-how-a-forgotten-labor-struggle-became-a-national-obsession-and-emblem-of-our-constitutional-faith/
On Christmas Eve in 1913, the Ladies Auxiliary of the Western Federation of Miners local in Calumet, Michigan, held a party for the children of copper miners who had been on strike against their employer, the Calumet and Hecla Mining Company, since July. About 500 children and 175 adults packed the second-floor auditorium of the Italian Hall in Red Jacket, a small mining town on the Keweenaw Peninsula, which juts out onto Lake Superior. The miners were mostly immigrants from the peripheries of EuropeFinland, Italy, and the Balkansbut their children were one in their quest for the nuts, candy, and presents from Santa that the Ladies Auxiliary had provided.
As the children lined up in the front of the large room, someone shouted Fire. Nobody smelled smoke or saw flames, but the panicked children and adults rushed to the main exit at the back of the hall. They raced down the stairway, a few stumbled on the steep steps, others piled on top of them, and still others, unable to stop the onrush behind them, piled on top of the pile.
The stampede was over in minutes. The tangle of bodies in the stairway was so dense that rescuers out on the street could not pull any victims out from the bottom. They had to go through the hall and lift them from the top. Seventy-four people died, most of them children, some still clutching their Christmas presents.
To this day, no one knows who, if anyone, shouted fire. One possible explanation is that a child had fainted and that someone cried for water. Wateror its Finnish equivalent vettäsounds like watra, which means fire in Serbo-Croatian. Many witnesses, however, claim that they saw a man with a Citizens Alliancea local anti-union group of businessmenbutton on his lapel enter the hall, shout fire, and run down the stairs. To their dying day, survivors claimed that the stampede was the work of a company man.
FIRE KILLED BACK THEN. BIG TIME. READ YOUR HISTORY. LABOR UNIONS FOUGHT FOR BETTER CONDITIONS AFTER THE TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FACTORY FIRE because it was tantamount to murder by the owners.
http://history1900s.about.com/od/1910s/p/trianglefire.htm
Historical Importance of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire March 25, 1911:
A fire at the Triangle Waist Company factory in New York City killed 146 workers. The large number of deaths exposed the dangerous conditions in high-rise factories and prompted the creation of new building, fire, and safety codes around the United States.
SO YOU NEVER HEARD OF THE SAN FRANCISCO "FIRE" actually MANY fires, but it was so bad the whole city burned more than once.
http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist1/fire.html
SAN FRANCISCO began its history in a baptism of fires. Hardly had the Gold Rush of 49 assembled a nondescript collection of wooden houses, tents, the hulks of ships, anything, in fact, to afford protection to the ever-increasing multitudes gathering from the four corners of the earth, but a disastrous fire wiped out the most important part of the new city.
Six fires in the first two or three years of her history caused the people to make extraordinary efforts to protect themselves against their recurrence. It was from this determination that the present efficient fire-fighting force sprang. Yet fires continue and will continue, as they did in those early days, and the price of eternal vigilance and preventive methods are the two chief auxiliaries at least of equal importance to force itself.
.....
The first of the great fires that visited San Francisco occurred at 6 oclock on the morning of December 24, 1849, when it was estimated that $1,000,000 worth of property was destroyed.
Six months later, on May 4, 1850, the second great fire occurred. It began at 4 oclock in the morning and by 11 oclock three blocks of the most valuable buildings in the City had been destroyed, with an attendant loss of property estimated to be $4,000,000.

Even in THIS millennium people have trampled over one another on Black Fridays.
http://blackfridaydeathcount.com/
IN OTHER COUNTRIES
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-44906/120-trampled-death-soccer-stadium-panic.html
120 trampled to death in soccer stadium panic
At least 120 fans died and hundreds more were injured after a stampede at a football match in Ghana last night.
It is the third soccer stadium disaster to strike Africa inside a month.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/38393697/#.UrX8d7TdfTs
BERLIN Crowds of people streaming into a techno music festival surged through an already jammed entry tunnel on Saturday, setting off a panic that killed 19 people and injured 342 at an event meant to celebrate love and peace.
The circumstances of the stampede at the famed Love Parade festival were still not clear even hours after the chaos, but it appeared that some or most of the 19 had been crushed to death.
http://www.buwor.com/india-89-people-killed-trampled-due-panic/#.UrX-FrTdfTs
MORE?
http://listverse.com/2010/11/26/10-tragic-human-panics-and-stampedes/
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Can we finally kill the meme about shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre? [View all]
intaglio
Dec 2013
OP
So you are saying that it SHOULD be okay to go into a crowded theater and announce
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#51
Actually YES you can....you can even be arresteprosecuted for assault just for threatening someone
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#93
I don't have to....that would be you...I agree that if you pull the fire alarm...
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#109
The pulling the Fire Alarm in the next building you enter and see if there is a law against it!
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#103
So, according to you, if you falsely shout "fire" in a crowded theater
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#115
I agree that you have not shown that a shout of "fire" will not cause a panic
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#119
Proof - if fire alarms caused panics, why are they used to alert occupants of buildings?
intaglio
Dec 2013
#121
So you are claiming that falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater and causing a panic is now OK?
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#116
Just what is the difference between falsely crying "fire" and falsely pulling a fire alarm?
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#125
So you cannot give me a specific difference, just some narrowly drawn laws.
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#127
But false claims of fire do not induce panic any more than actual claims of the ceiling falling
intaglio
Dec 2013
#6
If the shouter had had the presence of mind to be more explicit, people might have responded.
Denzil_DC
Dec 2013
#16
He seems to be forgetting what happened at that fire in the venue that Great White
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#57
Look its about being held responsible for the aftermath of shouting "FIRE"....
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#55
but it CAN....its not JUST about yelling FIRE...there are any number of words...
VanillaRhapsody
Dec 2013
#77
Back when the most buildings were made of wood, did not have sprinklers or smoke detectors...
Tigress DEM
Dec 2013
#27
It just shows that even as smart as most people are these days, we take some things for granted.
Tigress DEM
Dec 2013
#131
For which? The word "FIRE" causing fear in people at that time or current mob panic?
Tigress DEM
Dec 2013
#130
So a post about a false equivalence used to justify restrictions on free speech is clutter
intaglio
Dec 2013
#10
But Holmes based his decision regarding rights not upon the actual for harm from a claim
intaglio
Dec 2013
#17
The argument you are using here presupposes that you can read the intent of the speaker
intaglio
Dec 2013
#30
it worked better in the gaslight era when theaters regularly caught fire.
Warren Stupidity
Dec 2013
#32
You are claiming that Holmes was correct in his assumption that the audience would panic
intaglio
Dec 2013
#64
Nope, it was upheld by the Supreme Court under Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes in 1919
intaglio
Dec 2013
#24
Yes, it was overturned. They threw out Schenck's very broad "clear and present danger"
NYC Liberal
Dec 2013
#50
No, you have ASSERTED that the assumption that the crowd will panic is false.
Fortinbras Armstrong
Dec 2013
#124