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RandySF

(83,962 posts)

87. And how is it a problem?

Reply to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #53)

Tue Dec 24, 2013, 04:28 AM

Dec 2013

What is the difference between leering and admiration, anwayy?

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A gay perspective on masculine and male related issues (and leering). [View all] Kurska Dec 2013 OP

I don't want to generalize but my daughter is bi and I have known a few gay men who enjoy liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #1

I agree. Kurska Dec 2013 #2

you do realize it was men that were using how girls and women dress as an excuse to leer ect... and seabeyond Dec 2013 #3

I don't think the issue is just about male vs. female. Kurska Dec 2013 #7

i think it certainly is about clarification when a poster is stating that we would be the ones going seabeyond Dec 2013 #10

Yes yes, all men leer Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #98

this is your way and SOME other mens way to paint me in particular and women as extreme. it is wrong seabeyond Dec 2013 #99

Stop what? Almost every post you make is phrased about men as a whole. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #100

again. you are creating what i have not said, to feed into a misconception and nontruth. stop seabeyond Dec 2013 #101

Read your own posts. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #102

i am continually accused of namecalling personal attacks adn things i did not say. i continually ask seabeyond Dec 2013 #103

Whatever. 1. You cant read/understand your own posts. 2. And it's always someone elses fault Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #105

ah, the grammar diss. and, asking you to provide a link to accusations you make against me is NOT seabeyond Dec 2013 #106

Right....I did, read your first post that I responded to. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #107

no ALL. not factually correct. i used women. not ALL women spoke out. fact. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #116

LOL..."you do realize it was men that were using how girls and women dress as an excuse to leer ect" Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #118

you can rest your case. it was men. no ALL. pretty simple. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #119

Yes very simple, men used that way is a group, but that how it is in all your posts Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #121

"you lump all men in" wrong. i use it as i do with this. i am very specific in my choice. seabeyond Dec 2013 #125

LOL, spin whatever you like you, were offered an observation Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #138

On certain issues, it's absolutely necessary to just listen to what women have to say about things. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #4

but what happens when you have young women not allowed to be themselves because other liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #6

again, i will reiterate. it was not the women judging how the girls dress. it was the men. they seabeyond Dec 2013 #8

I know there are women out there who do that NuclearDem Dec 2013 #12

I want that too. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #17

I think that is a whole 'nother discussion ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #115

If you read the threads in question gollygee Dec 2013 #122

I have not until now gone into this discussion... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #5

Well Kurska Dec 2013 #13

They can have compassion and sympathy for what happens... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #18

I think understanding isn't absolute. Kurska Dec 2013 #23

I disagree. I think discrimination feels pretty much the same whether it is race, religion, gender stevenleser Dec 2013 #25

Very good post Kurska Dec 2013 #26

Sorry I disagree....how would you know that? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #29

If we are truly incapable of understanding people different than us. Kurska Dec 2013 #30

Anybody with a modicum of intelligence, empathy and.. opiate69 Dec 2013 #33

that's why you can never understand.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #44

I guess I'd rather be a hopeless optimist. Kurska Dec 2013 #65

or a realist...seems you are also an extremist and do not see grey area... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #68

One thing, I think I've learned Kurska Dec 2013 #71

Yeah some people think they are....some people are..there's where you go off the rails again... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #74

I have no doubt in my mind that you believe you are right n/t Kurska Dec 2013 #76

I don't believe it...I know it. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #80

We would know that because it makes sense and from experience of multiple kinds of discrimination stevenleser Dec 2013 #42

see that right there is the problem...that lowers it to simply name calling... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #47

No, that is one example I used. stevenleser Dec 2013 #94

then its a terrible example VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #140

Wow! It had to happen sooner or later ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #120

Thank you! gollygee Dec 2013 #124

I don't feel the need to protect a privilege ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #129

Thank you....but the fact that you are also Black VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #143

Exactly the point I was trying to make VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #141

I think they ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #146

there is only one thing to do...wait for them to die off... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #145

Well, hell hath frozen over. I agree with VR on something. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #15

Bingo! ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #117

+1 Matariki Dec 2013 #153

And it's more infuriating ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #160

Yes, "men should just shut up and listen to feminine perspective." LumosMaxima Dec 2013 #9

not all women agree on that. I for one don't. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #14

There's room for disagreement among feminists. nt LumosMaxima Dec 2013 #19

I'm a woman, and I don't agree either. Blue_In_AK Dec 2013 #69

I would never tell a straight person to just shut up and listen to me explain being gay. Kurska Dec 2013 #20

Not only do they understand it better. They are more inclined to learn when engaged and not told to liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #21

This is it exactly. HappyMe Dec 2013 #95

so, what have straight men taught you about being a gay man? just curious how much bettyellen Dec 2013 #34

It isn't about them teaching me to be gay. Kurska Dec 2013 #39

Well, it seemed you implied they had something meaningful to say about YOUR experience�. bettyellen Dec 2013 #73

Actually, their conceptualization and impression of my experience is highly meaningful to me. Kurska Dec 2013 #75

And we were dealing with twits. Anyone who pulls a wikl entry out of thin air, and thinks they bettyellen Dec 2013 #81

I think most people on DU are good people who believe in gender equality. Kurska Dec 2013 #83

way too many admit they think equality has been achieved, LOL. kind of blows my mind. bettyellen Dec 2013 #85

In a nutshell what you are saying is zeemike Dec 2013 #50

That is certainly a very succinct way of saying it :) n/t Kurska Dec 2013 #55

Nailed it NoOneMan Dec 2013 #61

well, our gay community told me to shut the fuck up and listen massive years ago seabeyond Dec 2013 #63

I think you are a tolerant person who believes deeply in the plight of minorities. Kurska Dec 2013 #72

i always listen kurska. that is one of my strengths. if the person puts forth the effort, seabeyond Dec 2013 #79

Sometimes telling someone to shut up and listen is the only way to break through the wall of Gormy Cuss Dec 2013 #131

The problem that comes into play here, and it is an important one, is simply The Straight Story Dec 2013 #24

I'm all for shutting up and listening. RandySF Dec 2013 #28

Maybe its not a conversation...maybe you should just listen...obviously there is still a huge VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #53

And how is it a problem? RandySF Dec 2013 #87

It's being gay that makes you vulnerable to oppression--not being maie eridani Dec 2013 #11

I don't agree. Kurska Dec 2013 #22

Privilege exists, period eridani Dec 2013 #36

I don't like broad brushes Kurska Dec 2013 #45

Utterly irrelevant. Oppression need not be personal at all eridani Dec 2013 #52

I think sometimes they just want to make sure I get a fair shake at it. Kurska Dec 2013 #57

I don't think I'm "bringing myself down" to admit that I have white privilege eridani Dec 2013 #59

I think we may conceive of the concept differently. Kurska Dec 2013 #70

well, you could give away your money, but you'd still be a guy. and have privileges women do not. bettyellen Dec 2013 #86

This is where feminism becomes apologia for class inequality. nt Romulox Dec 2013 #91

It's also correct to say women have privileges men do not Major Nikon Dec 2013 #92

That isn't "privilege" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #104

Then how do you quantify privilege? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #111

because education is the only thing, and control of your body matters not? bettyellen Dec 2013 #128

You can't reject it. You can only be aware of it and work to change society n/t eridani Dec 2013 #133

Parental wealth is the single greatest determiner of a child's success; You are simply mistaken. Romulox Dec 2013 #90

There are many other factors in the Real Life game besides difficulty level eridani Dec 2013 #136

Again, this reads like apologia for class-based inequality. Romulox Dec 2013 #149

There is a very good reason for wealth to be treated that way eridani Dec 2013 #151

The "good reason" is an attempt to defend and normalize class-based inequality. Romulox Dec 2013 #161

it is most certainly NOT ignored--you need to re-read Scalzi's original piece eridani Dec 2013 #162

I'm not so sure that's what was going on here. kcr Dec 2013 #16

You can't reach everybody Kurska Dec 2013 #31

Well, this is DU kcr Dec 2013 #35

Far too often, I think well meaning people are called trolls for genuinely not getting it. Kurska Dec 2013 #41

I don't agree. kcr Dec 2013 #46

And you are completely entitled to that opinion. Kurska Dec 2013 #51

Well, thank you very much for acknowledging my right to my opinion. n/t kcr Dec 2013 #54

Now what's going on? RandySF Dec 2013 #27

Thank you for making some sense libodem Dec 2013 #32

I find that because I have both a daughter and a son I try my best to see both sides. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #38

Respect is key libodem Dec 2013 #77

Wow Ino Dec 2013 #37

I'm saying we need to work together. Kurska Dec 2013 #40

So... Ino Dec 2013 #108

I don't think I would accept that definition from anyone gay or straight. Kurska Dec 2013 #137

I guess I don't know what you mean by "coming together" Ino Dec 2013 #139

Everyone has a right to dictate what they find acceptable. Kurska Dec 2013 #154

not all men are disrespectful towards women. Not all straight people are disrespectful towards liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #48

there are men who only know the tidbits they pull out of their ass (wiki) to prove they "know" bettyellen Dec 2013 #78

How do you react to heterosexuals lecturing you on what is and is not homophobia? Matariki Dec 2013 #43

Probably not a lot better than if it was another gay person trying to lecture me on the same. Kurska Dec 2013 #49

Not directed at me, but will give you my hetero input: The Straight Story Dec 2013 #56

Of course 'no individual is the single voice for a group' Matariki Dec 2013 #67

Ok, but what is the point here? The Straight Story Dec 2013 #82

Thanks for your input NoOneMan Dec 2013 #58

Well said and thank you. rrneck Dec 2013 #60

we are all human. We are all interconnected, and we all depend on one another. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #62

Reminds me of a quote form a very intelligent person Kurska Dec 2013 #64

I hadn't heard that one from him yet. That's a good one. I know I've heard him say liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #66

Very nice. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #84

I really like that post. nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #89

Very insightful. HappyMe Dec 2013 #88

So do white people get to define what constitutes racist behaviour, then? (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #93

I'm sorry, but if you read my OP Kurska Dec 2013 #142

I didn't say "majority groups alone" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #147

Let use the example of gay stereotypes. Kurska Dec 2013 #148

Except we aren't even talking about stereotypes. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #150

We see the same kind of vagueness in the acceptability of behaviors as representations. Kurska Dec 2013 #152

Okay, perhaps you're being wilfully obtuse Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #155

You do realizing you're instructing a gay person on how gay people decide how to be treated right? Kurska Dec 2013 #156

Okay, you are being wilfully obtuse. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #157

Or you are doing a very poor job of communicating your point successfully and persuasively. Kurska Dec 2013 #158

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and all that Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #159

Men have benefitted from feminism over the breadwinner stuff treestar Dec 2013 #96

As a straight, I really have to say this is wonderfully written. K&R Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #97

I do find value in it. LWolf Dec 2013 #109

I was preyed on as a teenage girl, but like you I also like men. There are good men in this world. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #114

+1 from me! Threedifferentones Dec 2013 #110

Very much so and getting both men and women to understand is the in my opinion Kurska Dec 2013 #144

Do you believe ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #112

States and the federal government seem to think so Major Nikon Dec 2013 #123

And that is a problem ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #127

It's not just how I define it Major Nikon Dec 2013 #132

I fail to see why they wouldn't Kurska Dec 2013 #135

This OP is one of the Best I've read concerning gender issues. Thank You! nt adirondacker Dec 2013 #113

If we had a thread about gay people gollygee Dec 2013 #126

The problem being that not all gay people find the same behavior offensive. Kurska Dec 2013 #134

As a side note, I have never creep shamed a gay man who was checking me out or approached me! grahamhgreen Dec 2013 #130