I'm a man...

[MrScorpio]

178. So are you implying that I haven't had a change of mind over the last ten years?

Besides, unless you're engaging in the kind of behavior that I've mentioned, why are you bothered by the fact that I'm pointing out that men shouldn't defend it?

Would you rather than I defer to my own privileged status as a man and try to find a way to justify harassment and unwanted sexist treatment of women by strange men?

And besides, I think you get me wrong. It's my own well established position that mutually consent behavior between adults is an open book. IF, let's a woman WELCOMES leers, WELCOMES blatantly sexual comments and behavior from a man whom she chooses to have it from, I think it's all fine and dandy.

I'm just saying that there's absolutely no excuse for doing that to any woman who's not consenting or welcoming that sort of thing. And I'm saying that men, especially due to the fact that men are the privileged class in this society, have no justification to use that status in order to circumvent any women's prerogative to object to rude and unwanted attention. There's absolutely no excuse for it either.

If any man, on the other hand feels that he's being objectified, of course he has every right to demand that it stop. There's no confusion about this on my part. All objectified persons have rights too, be they men or women.

When it comes to the difference between simply looking at a woman and leering at her, especially if the man makes a point of doing it in such and obvious way that the woman is sure to notice, to me indicates a basic difference in expectation. Whereas the looker doesn't necessarily objectify a person sexually, whether or not the look could possibly lead to any kind of encounter, there really is no degree of unilateral expectation there. The person who leers, however, does so without any regard to how the person they're leering at feels, and with that leer creates a one way expectation of a subsequent encounter, whether wanted or unwanted. If it unwanted, then clearly, we're going headlong into violation territory.

That sort of thing is sure to create discomfort for the person being leered at within their own space. Since, that sort of thing won't lead to any kind of mutually consented encounter, it would lead to the person being viewed as an object to speculate whether this stranger leering at them could or would escalate that unwanted attention into hostility, insults or the threat of physical danger.

Now, as you know, because of the way that victim blaming is so rampant in our society, there's a good chance that the person, who escalates unwanted attention into physical danger, they could get off scot free. They could claim that the an assault that they have committed was in fact consensual behavior and there's stands a good chance that they would be believed. The person being assaulted could feel so ashamed of what happened to them that they would choose not to report it. They could even rationalize the assault by thinking they've invited it in some way and feel ashamed for that.

Plus, there's the prevalent idea that a woman's dress or occupation makes her an open target. She was "asking" for it, in the mind of the person who assaulted her. That's pretty dehumanizing, is it not?

You know, I probably could not have written all the stuff up above ten years ago with the understanding that I have now. Ten years ago I probably couldn't have fathomed that sexism, especially public displays without regard to whomever, was wrong. I would have had a hard time understanding the different between abuse and what's considered consensual rough sex ten years ago. However, in all of this time I've taken it upon myself to become educated and comprehending of a lot of different things. I was wrong ten years ago, I know that. I have no qualms about saying it.

And it was never my point that all men are inherently bad, but I do object to men who do bad things and other men who go out of their way to enable bad behavior. Especially when that enabling is used under cover of privileged male status.

One last thing. What there seems to be missing here is a discussion about the choices that women have when it comes to any kind of attention. Quite simply, most women who engage in mutually consensual behavior create an entire multitude of possible outcomes. The point should be to ensure that any woman, who's desired by a potential partner, is allowed to feel comfortable enough to do as both of them would please. It's give and take. Of course, to get to that point it's important to establish a mutually consensual relationship at the start. Create a safe place, as it were.

That will not not certainly come about if one side is doing any kind of objectifying without any regards to the wishes of the other.

And on the other hand, unwanted attention and any kind of escalation has nothing more than a severely limited degree of outcomes in store… None of them good, many quite horrible.

That's my point and I don't think I'm pandering to anyone because I'm making it.