General Discussion

eridani

(51,907 posts)

162. it is most certainly NOT ignored--you need to re-read Scalzi's original piece

Wed Dec 25, 2013, 09:42 PM

Dec 2013

His comments, again

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/17/lowest-difficulty-setting-follow-up/

Your description should have put wealth/class as part of the difficulty setting.

Nope. Money and class are both hugely important and can definitely compensate for quite a lot, which I have of course noted in the entry itself. But they belong in the stats category because wealth and class are not an inherent part of one’s personal nature — and in the US particularly, part of our cultural sorting behavior — in the manner that race, gender and sexuality are (note “inherent” here does not necessarily mean “immutable,” but that’s a conversation I’m not going to go into great detail about right now). You can disagree, of course. But speaking as someone who has been at both the bottom and the top of the wealth and class spectrum here in the US, I think I have enough personal knowledge on the matter to say it belongs where I put it.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/23/final-notes-for-lowest-difficulty-setting/

The second major sticking point is the chunk of folks who really very truly believe that I should have put class/wealth into the difficulty setting in addition to or instead of race/gender/sexuality. Again, I’ve already explained why I designed the analogy as I did, and while I think it’s fine that people disagree, I haven’t been sufficiently convinced by their arguments that I was wrong in the manner in which I designed it. I think some people are suggesting that I don’t think wealth and class matter in a significant way; they need to reread the entry. It’s not about whether it makes a difference. It does. It’s about where it’s properly placed in the analogy. Some have commented this is set-up that really is specific to the US, not other places in the Western world; I’m not wholly convinced of this, but then I live in the US, not other places in the Western world.

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A gay perspective on masculine and male related issues (and leering). [View all] Kurska Dec 2013 OP

I don't want to generalize but my daughter is bi and I have known a few gay men who enjoy liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #1

I agree. Kurska Dec 2013 #2

you do realize it was men that were using how girls and women dress as an excuse to leer ect... and seabeyond Dec 2013 #3

I don't think the issue is just about male vs. female. Kurska Dec 2013 #7

i think it certainly is about clarification when a poster is stating that we would be the ones going seabeyond Dec 2013 #10

Yes yes, all men leer Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #98

this is your way and SOME other mens way to paint me in particular and women as extreme. it is wrong seabeyond Dec 2013 #99

Stop what? Almost every post you make is phrased about men as a whole. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #100

again. you are creating what i have not said, to feed into a misconception and nontruth. stop seabeyond Dec 2013 #101

Read your own posts. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #102

i am continually accused of namecalling personal attacks adn things i did not say. i continually ask seabeyond Dec 2013 #103

Whatever. 1. You cant read/understand your own posts. 2. And it's always someone elses fault Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #105

ah, the grammar diss. and, asking you to provide a link to accusations you make against me is NOT seabeyond Dec 2013 #106

Right....I did, read your first post that I responded to. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #107

no ALL. not factually correct. i used women. not ALL women spoke out. fact. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #116

LOL..."you do realize it was men that were using how girls and women dress as an excuse to leer ect" Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #118

you can rest your case. it was men. no ALL. pretty simple. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #119

Yes very simple, men used that way is a group, but that how it is in all your posts Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #121

"you lump all men in" wrong. i use it as i do with this. i am very specific in my choice. seabeyond Dec 2013 #125

LOL, spin whatever you like you, were offered an observation Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #138

On certain issues, it's absolutely necessary to just listen to what women have to say about things. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #4

but what happens when you have young women not allowed to be themselves because other liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #6

again, i will reiterate. it was not the women judging how the girls dress. it was the men. they seabeyond Dec 2013 #8

I know there are women out there who do that NuclearDem Dec 2013 #12

I want that too. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #17

I think that is a whole 'nother discussion ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #115

If you read the threads in question gollygee Dec 2013 #122

I have not until now gone into this discussion... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #5

Well Kurska Dec 2013 #13

They can have compassion and sympathy for what happens... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #18

I think understanding isn't absolute. Kurska Dec 2013 #23

I disagree. I think discrimination feels pretty much the same whether it is race, religion, gender stevenleser Dec 2013 #25

Very good post Kurska Dec 2013 #26

Sorry I disagree....how would you know that? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #29

If we are truly incapable of understanding people different than us. Kurska Dec 2013 #30

Anybody with a modicum of intelligence, empathy and.. opiate69 Dec 2013 #33

that's why you can never understand.... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #44

I guess I'd rather be a hopeless optimist. Kurska Dec 2013 #65

or a realist...seems you are also an extremist and do not see grey area... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #68

One thing, I think I've learned Kurska Dec 2013 #71

Yeah some people think they are....some people are..there's where you go off the rails again... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #74

I have no doubt in my mind that you believe you are right n/t Kurska Dec 2013 #76

I don't believe it...I know it. VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #80

We would know that because it makes sense and from experience of multiple kinds of discrimination stevenleser Dec 2013 #42

see that right there is the problem...that lowers it to simply name calling... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #47

No, that is one example I used. stevenleser Dec 2013 #94

then its a terrible example VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #140

Wow! It had to happen sooner or later ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #120

Thank you! gollygee Dec 2013 #124

I don't feel the need to protect a privilege ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #129

Thank you....but the fact that you are also Black VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #143

Exactly the point I was trying to make VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #141

I think they ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #146

there is only one thing to do...wait for them to die off... VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #145

Well, hell hath frozen over. I agree with VR on something. NuclearDem Dec 2013 #15

Bingo! ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #117

+1 Matariki Dec 2013 #153

And it's more infuriating ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #160

Yes, "men should just shut up and listen to feminine perspective." LumosMaxima Dec 2013 #9

not all women agree on that. I for one don't. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #14

There's room for disagreement among feminists. nt LumosMaxima Dec 2013 #19

I'm a woman, and I don't agree either. Blue_In_AK Dec 2013 #69

I would never tell a straight person to just shut up and listen to me explain being gay. Kurska Dec 2013 #20

Not only do they understand it better. They are more inclined to learn when engaged and not told to liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #21

This is it exactly. HappyMe Dec 2013 #95

so, what have straight men taught you about being a gay man? just curious how much bettyellen Dec 2013 #34

It isn't about them teaching me to be gay. Kurska Dec 2013 #39

Well, it seemed you implied they had something meaningful to say about YOUR experience�. bettyellen Dec 2013 #73

Actually, their conceptualization and impression of my experience is highly meaningful to me. Kurska Dec 2013 #75

And we were dealing with twits. Anyone who pulls a wikl entry out of thin air, and thinks they bettyellen Dec 2013 #81

I think most people on DU are good people who believe in gender equality. Kurska Dec 2013 #83

way too many admit they think equality has been achieved, LOL. kind of blows my mind. bettyellen Dec 2013 #85

In a nutshell what you are saying is zeemike Dec 2013 #50

That is certainly a very succinct way of saying it :) n/t Kurska Dec 2013 #55

Nailed it NoOneMan Dec 2013 #61

well, our gay community told me to shut the fuck up and listen massive years ago seabeyond Dec 2013 #63

I think you are a tolerant person who believes deeply in the plight of minorities. Kurska Dec 2013 #72

i always listen kurska. that is one of my strengths. if the person puts forth the effort, seabeyond Dec 2013 #79

Sometimes telling someone to shut up and listen is the only way to break through the wall of Gormy Cuss Dec 2013 #131

The problem that comes into play here, and it is an important one, is simply The Straight Story Dec 2013 #24

I'm all for shutting up and listening. RandySF Dec 2013 #28

Maybe its not a conversation...maybe you should just listen...obviously there is still a huge VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #53

And how is it a problem? RandySF Dec 2013 #87

It's being gay that makes you vulnerable to oppression--not being maie eridani Dec 2013 #11

I don't agree. Kurska Dec 2013 #22

Privilege exists, period eridani Dec 2013 #36

I don't like broad brushes Kurska Dec 2013 #45

Utterly irrelevant. Oppression need not be personal at all eridani Dec 2013 #52

I think sometimes they just want to make sure I get a fair shake at it. Kurska Dec 2013 #57

I don't think I'm "bringing myself down" to admit that I have white privilege eridani Dec 2013 #59

I think we may conceive of the concept differently. Kurska Dec 2013 #70

well, you could give away your money, but you'd still be a guy. and have privileges women do not. bettyellen Dec 2013 #86

This is where feminism becomes apologia for class inequality. nt Romulox Dec 2013 #91

It's also correct to say women have privileges men do not Major Nikon Dec 2013 #92

That isn't "privilege" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #104

Then how do you quantify privilege? Major Nikon Dec 2013 #111

because education is the only thing, and control of your body matters not? bettyellen Dec 2013 #128

You can't reject it. You can only be aware of it and work to change society n/t eridani Dec 2013 #133

Parental wealth is the single greatest determiner of a child's success; You are simply mistaken. Romulox Dec 2013 #90

There are many other factors in the Real Life game besides difficulty level eridani Dec 2013 #136

Again, this reads like apologia for class-based inequality. Romulox Dec 2013 #149

There is a very good reason for wealth to be treated that way eridani Dec 2013 #151

The "good reason" is an attempt to defend and normalize class-based inequality. Romulox Dec 2013 #161

it is most certainly NOT ignored--you need to re-read Scalzi's original piece eridani Dec 2013 #162

I'm not so sure that's what was going on here. kcr Dec 2013 #16

You can't reach everybody Kurska Dec 2013 #31

Well, this is DU kcr Dec 2013 #35

Far too often, I think well meaning people are called trolls for genuinely not getting it. Kurska Dec 2013 #41

I don't agree. kcr Dec 2013 #46

And you are completely entitled to that opinion. Kurska Dec 2013 #51

Well, thank you very much for acknowledging my right to my opinion. n/t kcr Dec 2013 #54

Now what's going on? RandySF Dec 2013 #27

Thank you for making some sense libodem Dec 2013 #32

I find that because I have both a daughter and a son I try my best to see both sides. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #38

Respect is key libodem Dec 2013 #77

Wow Ino Dec 2013 #37

I'm saying we need to work together. Kurska Dec 2013 #40

So... Ino Dec 2013 #108

I don't think I would accept that definition from anyone gay or straight. Kurska Dec 2013 #137

I guess I don't know what you mean by "coming together" Ino Dec 2013 #139

Everyone has a right to dictate what they find acceptable. Kurska Dec 2013 #154

not all men are disrespectful towards women. Not all straight people are disrespectful towards liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #48

there are men who only know the tidbits they pull out of their ass (wiki) to prove they "know" bettyellen Dec 2013 #78

How do you react to heterosexuals lecturing you on what is and is not homophobia? Matariki Dec 2013 #43

Probably not a lot better than if it was another gay person trying to lecture me on the same. Kurska Dec 2013 #49

Not directed at me, but will give you my hetero input: The Straight Story Dec 2013 #56

Of course 'no individual is the single voice for a group' Matariki Dec 2013 #67

Ok, but what is the point here? The Straight Story Dec 2013 #82

Thanks for your input NoOneMan Dec 2013 #58

Well said and thank you. rrneck Dec 2013 #60

we are all human. We are all interconnected, and we all depend on one another. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #62

Reminds me of a quote form a very intelligent person Kurska Dec 2013 #64

I hadn't heard that one from him yet. That's a good one. I know I've heard him say liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #66

Very nice. Behind the Aegis Dec 2013 #84

I really like that post. nt Bonobo Dec 2013 #89

Very insightful. HappyMe Dec 2013 #88

So do white people get to define what constitutes racist behaviour, then? (n/t) Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #93

I'm sorry, but if you read my OP Kurska Dec 2013 #142

I didn't say "majority groups alone" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #147

Let use the example of gay stereotypes. Kurska Dec 2013 #148

Except we aren't even talking about stereotypes. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #150

We see the same kind of vagueness in the acceptability of behaviors as representations. Kurska Dec 2013 #152

Okay, perhaps you're being wilfully obtuse Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #155

You do realizing you're instructing a gay person on how gay people decide how to be treated right? Kurska Dec 2013 #156

Okay, you are being wilfully obtuse. Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #157

Or you are doing a very poor job of communicating your point successfully and persuasively. Kurska Dec 2013 #158

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step, and all that Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #159

Men have benefitted from feminism over the breadwinner stuff treestar Dec 2013 #96

As a straight, I really have to say this is wonderfully written. K&R Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #97

I do find value in it. LWolf Dec 2013 #109

I was preyed on as a teenage girl, but like you I also like men. There are good men in this world. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #114

+1 from me! Threedifferentones Dec 2013 #110

Very much so and getting both men and women to understand is the in my opinion Kurska Dec 2013 #144

Do you believe ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #112

States and the federal government seem to think so Major Nikon Dec 2013 #123

And that is a problem ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #127

It's not just how I define it Major Nikon Dec 2013 #132

I fail to see why they wouldn't Kurska Dec 2013 #135

This OP is one of the Best I've read concerning gender issues. Thank You! nt adirondacker Dec 2013 #113

If we had a thread about gay people gollygee Dec 2013 #126

The problem being that not all gay people find the same behavior offensive. Kurska Dec 2013 #134

As a side note, I have never creep shamed a gay man who was checking me out or approached me! grahamhgreen Dec 2013 #130