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Tom Rinaldo

(23,197 posts)
38. I don't dispute your category rankings
Thu Dec 26, 2013, 12:13 PM
Dec 2013

This pope in some cases has softened the tone a little in regressive areas but the policy remains the same. Policy and action matter most. In some cases a softening of tone can be beneficial in some ways even though ultimately nothing of substance changes. I believe that is probably why The Advocate named Francis man of the year, for comments such as "Who am I to Judge?". It maintains discrimination but lessens overt hate. Hate fuels hate crimes etc.

The thing about economics is that it is an issue that cuts across the board and effects all human beings, and for the portion of the world that lives in poverty, which is most of it, it literally is a life or death issue So a progressive position on economics is of critical importance to billions. Social issues involve sociological changes of belief systems. Government has a role in promoting social changes in some cases, such as banning public racial discrimination, and legalizing gay marriage, but the most profound changes must evolve in the social realm. Though economic issues have a social dimension also, such as the public attitude toward greed, government has a much more direct role it can play in addressing economic inequities in society. And governments can change relatively rapidly through a dynamic political process or even through revolution. So an intense focus on economic issues can potentially bring about both profound and rapid wide spread positive changes.

I think it foolish to argue about whether Pope Francis is a progressive leader. On a societal level clearly he isn't. The Roman Catholic Church is a profoundly conservative institution in the most literal meaning of that word. Perhaps he is a relative progressive within the leadership ranks of that institution (though not among lay Catholics). Any claim beyond that is silly. He however has articulated a very progressive economic message, rooted in the preachings from the New Testament. Some argue that he is saying nothing new for a Catholic Church in the realm of economic justice, prior popes have said the same. That may be true, but that can be compared to the platform of the Democratic Party which remains fairly consistent regarding liberal goals over the decade, such as support of organized Labor for one example. The fact that a pro-Union plank happens to be in every Democratic Party platform that all of our candidates for President run on doesn't guarantee that all of our Democratic Presidents assign equal importance toward advocating for that position.

What this Pope is now doing, in terms of what one man can potentially accomplish, is potentially revolutionary. Why do I say that? Because he is fundamentally shifting the public understanding of what it entails to be a good Christian, and that has ramifications for all Christians, not just Catholics. And there are an awful lot of professed Christians in this world. For decades now the public face of Christianity has evolved towards the condemnation of sinners, however that be defined and increasingly it has been defined in an incredibly intolerant - even hateful fashion. The literal message of Jesus Christ as contained in his purported gospels was seldom invoked. Jesus preached little about fire and brimstone, he preached a lot about forgiveness and compassion and all "men" being "brothers" who one should love as one loves oneself. If Pope Francis succeeds in returning the meaning of Christianity to the message contained in the gospels, it is a shift that the ruling elites should well be anxious over.

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I can recongize and join in on his Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #1
And yet, would you support someone who held the same positions MineralMan Dec 2013 #2
I used the word "recognize," Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #7
Sorry, it's a meaningless question. He is head of a religious organization not a head of state. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #8
If Pope Francis were running for office in the US I wouldn't vote for him. el_bryanto Dec 2013 #17
Exactly. He excommunicated a priest who advocated for gay marriage and female clergy. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #3
Thanks! MineralMan Dec 2013 #5
Don't forget the dog eating Communion. rug Dec 2013 #48
No. He allowed an attendee to give a host to his dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #50
Uh, that would be a Yes. rug Dec 2013 #51
Yes, what?? You think the attendee feeding his dog the sacrament is what got the priest PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #52
That is far more likely than criticizing church policies. rug Dec 2013 #60
Don't you see the HYPOCRISY of the pontiff via the censure of “radical feminist” nuns? PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #64
Good illustration of some of these issues. MineralMan Dec 2013 #66
Oh, I see lots of hypocrisy (sic) in this thread. rug Dec 2013 #67
We were actually discussing the censured nuns in our continuing "don't forget" saga. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #71
You were posting about a priest who was excommunicated for his views. rug Dec 2013 #74
Oh please... corrected? You think it was about the fucking DOG? You are wrong. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #78
" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #79
uh... keep reading... not. about. the. dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #82
Well done... SidDithers Dec 2013 #88
" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #89
read. the. whole. article. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #90
I've followed this story for the past two years. rug Dec 2013 #94
I wouldn't want him as president, but I think he's great as a pope. EOTE Dec 2013 #4
I'm not a Catholic, or even a Christian. MineralMan Dec 2013 #9
I'm not either as well. I think he should be held up as someone who is taking a very backward EOTE Dec 2013 #18
My opinion is positive. mmonk Dec 2013 #6
Does your Franciscan church celebrate same-sex marriages? MineralMan Dec 2013 #11
where does your "buying it" or not enter the equation? Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #19
DU is a place where people post their opinions of things. MineralMan Dec 2013 #23
my opinion is that you would make a terrible survey designer Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #35
OK. I'm not a survey designer. MineralMan Dec 2013 #63
In submission to your all knowing and perfect judgement, mmonk Dec 2013 #20
That does not answer either of my questions, you know. MineralMan Dec 2013 #21
To answer the best I can since we have been members mmonk Dec 2013 #32
Your church's website about marriage says 'one man, one woman, God' plan' Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #45
I don't dance, I just know about the LGBT Ministry and retreats mmonk Dec 2013 #56
Trying to make you realize I'm on your side. mmonk Dec 2013 #65
You can not serve God and Mammon. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #112
Here is Francis on marriage equality and gay families. Tell me why you see this as Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #24
Obviously not the same as yours and your projections on me. mmonk Dec 2013 #37
And yet when asked to point out these changes you claim to see, you snap at me. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #40
I believe it was you that took exception that I thought he was a positive change. mmonk Dec 2013 #69
I asked you to clarify you confusing position, which you failed to do. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #110
As Pope's go, he's extremely progressive. Schema Thing Dec 2013 #10
I welcome all voters who vote for candidates who are progressive, MineralMan Dec 2013 #13
I too have concern about the social rights attitudes of the Vatican. ananda Dec 2013 #12
Can we legitimately call the Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #15
Obama doesn't pass the PPT either. MindPilot Dec 2013 #14
He talks, the world listens, this is what they hear him say about equal rights for gays: Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #27
Oh I'm very sorry, I was wrong. Fuck the pope. MindPilot Dec 2013 #124
A lot more progressive than his recent predecessors. hobbit709 Dec 2013 #16
K&R Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #22
Thanks. You understood my point in the opening post. MineralMan Dec 2013 #25
Ratz spoke out against capitalism as well. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #28
Exactly. I don't know why suddenly this guy is a hero here. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #58
There are differences in popes. mmonk Dec 2013 #97
What difference? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #98
If you are interested, you should look for yourself. mmonk Dec 2013 #102
You made the claim. The burden of proof is your's, not mine. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #108
I believe you made the claim they are all the same. mmonk Dec 2013 #109
They are all anti gay, anti choice preacher men gathering up the cash. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #116
He's about as progressive as you can get in an institution that is a medieval, Cleita Dec 2013 #26
This is a somewhat unique political combination; Jamaal510 Dec 2013 #29
Read post #3 Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #33
It would be if the 'fiscal progressivism' was anything more than rhetoric Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #36
You got the results you wanted by cherrypicking your categories. Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #30
Yup. Lucinda Dec 2013 #39
I picked four categories that affect individuals on an MineralMan Dec 2013 #42
Yeah. Who cares about gays, women, and children. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #87
I missed where they said they don't care about gays, women, and children. madinmaryland Dec 2013 #140
If Phil from Duck Dynasty gave away a million to feed the poor, would his hate speech Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #31
The Tea Party Pope. Oh my.... think Dec 2013 #34
Just as Obama is the Tea Party president. Orsino Dec 2013 #125
I don't dispute your category rankings Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #38
Francis said this about marriage equality. It is hate speech, like Phil the Duck guy. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #41
We are discussing him as pope Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #53
So if I change my name to Goddy McGodster today all I said yesterday is now Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62
I am with you, BNW. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #68
I wish folks would just admit they don't mind the sexism and homophobia and that Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #72
Oh yes, I am from Milwaukee and VERY familiar with Dolan and his ilk. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #76
He didn't claim that. I just pointed out an aspect of Church dogma that predates him Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #75
Have you even read the whole diatribe from his jet which folks distill to 'who am I Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #81
No, it is not OK to be a bigot. Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #92
I have to wonder about the relativity of the term "Progressive." MineralMan Dec 2013 #115
By no standard (other than a highly restrictive internal to high Church leadership one)... Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #119
What's kind of funny to me is that I've always claimed to be MineralMan Dec 2013 #123
But to “not talk about these issues all the time,” for the pope, means silence from the single PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #43
That's not a quote from my post - it's a little bit misleading Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #70
No, it's a Francis quote. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #73
Exiled Popes? Dude, I quote Francis from 2010 and you say 'that was then' but Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #77
I did nothing of the sort Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #84
A 'seat of spiritual power'? No, I don't share Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #103
Your assumptions are showing Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #114
Here's the thing Tom, you guys need to back off pushing Francis as a voice in our Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #118
I don't call him a holy man Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #122
He's heading one of the most arch conservative organizations on the planet Warpy Dec 2013 #44
Reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights are economic issues, too PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #47
Agreed. However, he's still making Scalia squirm Warpy Dec 2013 #49
"he's come out against everything Scalia has ever stood for"? That's not true. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #95
I like his economic pronouncements, too. MineralMan Dec 2013 #54
I find the organization irredeemable. It's been that way for over a thousand years Warpy Dec 2013 #59
I wish I could just ignore the Roman Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #61
Francis himself has built his career on attacking gay people and to claim otherwise Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #57
What would Free Republic be saying about Pope Francis if he were running for the Presidency? rug Dec 2013 #46
Thank you for your thoughtful, well-reasoned reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #83
There's much more of it there than in your Op. rug Dec 2013 #91
Cool. Again, thanks for your reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #107
Maybe you can just describe the Free Republic reaction to your analogy. rug Dec 2013 #144
I have no idea. I have not MineralMan Dec 2013 #145
Popes don't run for president. LWolf Dec 2013 #55
Thanks for the Fox News headline.. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #80
You haven't seen that? MineralMan Dec 2013 #85
I see DUers praising his comments against republican/third way trickle-down economics, nothing more. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #130
Ah, a realist. mmonk Dec 2013 #86
That's pretty much how I see it... Wounded Bear Dec 2013 #93
We are supposed to be the people who don't see everything in black-and-white. jeff47 Dec 2013 #96
Ah, but you see, DU isn't really all that. MineralMan Dec 2013 #99
I think you OP is indeed nuanced and a useful starting point for meaningful discussion Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #101
Thanks very much. I appreciate your comment. MineralMan Dec 2013 #104
The fact that you're concerned about keeping score is what I'm talking about. jeff47 Dec 2013 #113
Other people here say they love him. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #100
Only when you read the title of their post jeff47 Dec 2013 #105
See link in my edit. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #106
Want me to find a link where someone posts jeff47 Dec 2013 #117
I've provided links for people. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #121
Or course not chungking34 Dec 2013 #111
"Progressive" is a relative term intaglio Dec 2013 #120
Is it a relative term? I'm not sure that's true. MineralMan Dec 2013 #126
There is one Church and many Churches intaglio Dec 2013 #128
I disagree that there is one church. MineralMan Dec 2013 #132
You are confusing the term Church intaglio Dec 2013 #135
Straw Man argument AceWheeler Dec 2013 #127
No. It is not a straw man argument. MineralMan Dec 2013 #129
This is too simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #131
I argue that your point is too simplistic. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #133
Is the only choice really to applaud them as heros? gulliver Dec 2013 #136
Well, I do commend Dick Cheney and Rob Portman for supporting same-sex marriage. I no way would I madinmaryland Dec 2013 #141
“This to me is one of the big problems with Republicans, is that they only seem to have empathy PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #142
What is really ironic, is that 53 years ago we elected the first (and only) Catholic to the madinmaryland Dec 2013 #143
No, it is not simplistic. It looks at several issues. It does not look MineralMan Dec 2013 #134
The question itself is simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #139
An organization that is 2000 years old and has 1 billion members will change VERY slowly scheming daemons Dec 2013 #137
We have different perspectives. rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #138
Seems like a fair summation to me Yo_Mama Dec 2013 #146
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