General Discussion

Tom Rinaldo

(23,201 posts)

84. I did nothing of the sort

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 01:44 PM

Dec 2013

Can't we still have nuanced discussions about how things play out in the real world here on DU? I already agreed with you on the issue regarding the pope having a regressive/reactionary stance on LGBT issues. What I was getting at was what can any of us REALISTICALLY EXPECT, not desire or want, from this or any other pope, especially after less than one year "in office"? I wouldn't expect Francis to launch a rapid whole scale purge of influential Cardinals around the world even if he wanted to, and I am not claiming that he wants to.

If, and this is a big if, Francis would rather that Cardinal Dolan for example, have a lower profile in the Catholic Church in the future, TACTICALLY I would not expect him to oust him in his first year as pope even though he has the so called spiritual power to do so. I expect this or any other pope to operate as a political leader to a very large extent. Shrewd political leaders work to marginalize their opponents over time, in a myriad number of ways, until they have consolidated power enough to make a direct move against them.

The irony of this discussion is that I bet you don't think of the papacy as being a seat of spiritual power and yet you expect popes to act with a degree of power that political leaders can only muster after sufficient groundwork is done.

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Is Pope Francis Really a Progressive Example? [View all] MineralMan Dec 2013 OP

I can recongize and join in on his Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #1

And yet, would you support someone who held the same positions MineralMan Dec 2013 #2

I used the word "recognize," Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #7

Sorry, it's a meaningless question. He is head of a religious organization not a head of state. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #8

If Pope Francis were running for office in the US I wouldn't vote for him. el_bryanto Dec 2013 #17

Exactly. He excommunicated a priest who advocated for gay marriage and female clergy. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #3

Thanks! MineralMan Dec 2013 #5

Don't forget the dog eating Communion. rug Dec 2013 #48

No. He allowed an attendee to give a host to his dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #50

Uh, that would be a Yes. rug Dec 2013 #51

Yes, what?? You think the attendee feeding his dog the sacrament is what got the priest PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #52

That is far more likely than criticizing church policies. rug Dec 2013 #60

Don't you see the HYPOCRISY of the pontiff via the censure of �radical feminist� nuns? PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #64

Good illustration of some of these issues. MineralMan Dec 2013 #66

Oh, I see lots of hypocrisy (sic) in this thread. rug Dec 2013 #67

We were actually discussing the censured nuns in our continuing "don't forget" saga. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #71

You were posting about a priest who was excommunicated for his views. rug Dec 2013 #74

Oh please... corrected? You think it was about the fucking DOG? You are wrong. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #78

" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #79

uh... keep reading... not. about. the. dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #82

Well done... SidDithers Dec 2013 #88

" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #89

read. the. whole. article. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #90

I've followed this story for the past two years. rug Dec 2013 #94

I wouldn't want him as president, but I think he's great as a pope. EOTE Dec 2013 #4

I'm not a Catholic, or even a Christian. MineralMan Dec 2013 #9

I'm not either as well. I think he should be held up as someone who is taking a very backward EOTE Dec 2013 #18

My opinion is positive. mmonk Dec 2013 #6

Does your Franciscan church celebrate same-sex marriages? MineralMan Dec 2013 #11

where does your "buying it" or not enter the equation? Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #19

DU is a place where people post their opinions of things. MineralMan Dec 2013 #23

my opinion is that you would make a terrible survey designer Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #35

OK. I'm not a survey designer. MineralMan Dec 2013 #63

In submission to your all knowing and perfect judgement, mmonk Dec 2013 #20

That does not answer either of my questions, you know. MineralMan Dec 2013 #21

To answer the best I can since we have been members mmonk Dec 2013 #32

Your church's website about marriage says 'one man, one woman, God' plan' Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #45

I don't dance, I just know about the LGBT Ministry and retreats mmonk Dec 2013 #56

Trying to make you realize I'm on your side. mmonk Dec 2013 #65

You can not serve God and Mammon. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #112

Here is Francis on marriage equality and gay families. Tell me why you see this as Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #24

Obviously not the same as yours and your projections on me. mmonk Dec 2013 #37

And yet when asked to point out these changes you claim to see, you snap at me. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #40

I believe it was you that took exception that I thought he was a positive change. mmonk Dec 2013 #69

I asked you to clarify you confusing position, which you failed to do. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #110

As Pope's go, he's extremely progressive. Schema Thing Dec 2013 #10

I welcome all voters who vote for candidates who are progressive, MineralMan Dec 2013 #13

I too have concern about the social rights attitudes of the Vatican. ananda Dec 2013 #12

Can we legitimately call the Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #15

Obama doesn't pass the PPT either. MindPilot Dec 2013 #14

He talks, the world listens, this is what they hear him say about equal rights for gays: Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #27

Oh I'm very sorry, I was wrong. Fuck the pope. MindPilot Dec 2013 #124

A lot more progressive than his recent predecessors. hobbit709 Dec 2013 #16

K&R Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #22

Thanks. You understood my point in the opening post. MineralMan Dec 2013 #25

Ratz spoke out against capitalism as well. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #28

Exactly. I don't know why suddenly this guy is a hero here. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #58

There are differences in popes. mmonk Dec 2013 #97

What difference? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #98

If you are interested, you should look for yourself. mmonk Dec 2013 #102

You made the claim. The burden of proof is your's, not mine. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #108

I believe you made the claim they are all the same. mmonk Dec 2013 #109

They are all anti gay, anti choice preacher men gathering up the cash. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #116

He's about as progressive as you can get in an institution that is a medieval, Cleita Dec 2013 #26

This is a somewhat unique political combination; Jamaal510 Dec 2013 #29

Read post #3 Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #33

It would be if the 'fiscal progressivism' was anything more than rhetoric Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #36

You got the results you wanted by cherrypicking your categories. Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #30

Yup. Lucinda Dec 2013 #39

I picked four categories that affect individuals on an MineralMan Dec 2013 #42

Yeah. Who cares about gays, women, and children. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #87

I missed where they said they don't care about gays, women, and children. madinmaryland Dec 2013 #140

If Phil from Duck Dynasty gave away a million to feed the poor, would his hate speech Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #31

The Tea Party Pope. Oh my.... think Dec 2013 #34

Just as Obama is the Tea Party president. Orsino Dec 2013 #125

I don't dispute your category rankings Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #38

Francis said this about marriage equality. It is hate speech, like Phil the Duck guy. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #41

We are discussing him as pope Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #53

So if I change my name to Goddy McGodster today all I said yesterday is now Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62

I am with you, BNW. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #68

I wish folks would just admit they don't mind the sexism and homophobia and that Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #72

Oh yes, I am from Milwaukee and VERY familiar with Dolan and his ilk. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #76

He didn't claim that. I just pointed out an aspect of Church dogma that predates him Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #75

Have you even read the whole diatribe from his jet which folks distill to 'who am I Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #81

No, it is not OK to be a bigot. Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #92

I have to wonder about the relativity of the term "Progressive." MineralMan Dec 2013 #115

By no standard (other than a highly restrictive internal to high Church leadership one)... Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #119

What's kind of funny to me is that I've always claimed to be MineralMan Dec 2013 #123

But to �not talk about these issues all the time,� for the pope, means silence from the single PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #43

That's not a quote from my post - it's a little bit misleading Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #70

No, it's a Francis quote. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #73

Exiled Popes? Dude, I quote Francis from 2010 and you say 'that was then' but Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #77

I did nothing of the sort Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #84

A 'seat of spiritual power'? No, I don't share Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #103

Your assumptions are showing Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #114

Here's the thing Tom, you guys need to back off pushing Francis as a voice in our Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #118

I don't call him a holy man Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #122

He's heading one of the most arch conservative organizations on the planet Warpy Dec 2013 #44

Reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights are economic issues, too PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #47

Agreed. However, he's still making Scalia squirm Warpy Dec 2013 #49

"he's come out against everything Scalia has ever stood for"? That's not true. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #95

I like his economic pronouncements, too. MineralMan Dec 2013 #54

I find the organization irredeemable. It's been that way for over a thousand years Warpy Dec 2013 #59

I wish I could just ignore the Roman Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #61

Francis himself has built his career on attacking gay people and to claim otherwise Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #57

What would Free Republic be saying about Pope Francis if he were running for the Presidency? rug Dec 2013 #46

Thank you for your thoughtful, well-reasoned reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #83

There's much more of it there than in your Op. rug Dec 2013 #91

Cool. Again, thanks for your reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #107

Maybe you can just describe the Free Republic reaction to your analogy. rug Dec 2013 #144

I have no idea. I have not MineralMan Dec 2013 #145

Popes don't run for president. LWolf Dec 2013 #55

Thanks for the Fox News headline.. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #80

You haven't seen that? MineralMan Dec 2013 #85

I see DUers praising his comments against republican/third way trickle-down economics, nothing more. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #130

Ah, a realist. mmonk Dec 2013 #86

That's pretty much how I see it... Wounded Bear Dec 2013 #93

We are supposed to be the people who don't see everything in black-and-white. jeff47 Dec 2013 #96

Ah, but you see, DU isn't really all that. MineralMan Dec 2013 #99

I think you OP is indeed nuanced and a useful starting point for meaningful discussion Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #101

Thanks very much. I appreciate your comment. MineralMan Dec 2013 #104

The fact that you're concerned about keeping score is what I'm talking about. jeff47 Dec 2013 #113

Other people here say they love him. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #100

Only when you read the title of their post jeff47 Dec 2013 #105

See link in my edit. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #106

Want me to find a link where someone posts jeff47 Dec 2013 #117

I've provided links for people. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #121

Or course not chungking34 Dec 2013 #111

"Progressive" is a relative term intaglio Dec 2013 #120

Is it a relative term? I'm not sure that's true. MineralMan Dec 2013 #126

There is one Church and many Churches intaglio Dec 2013 #128

I disagree that there is one church. MineralMan Dec 2013 #132

You are confusing the term Church intaglio Dec 2013 #135

Straw Man argument AceWheeler Dec 2013 #127

No. It is not a straw man argument. MineralMan Dec 2013 #129

This is too simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #131

I argue that your point is too simplistic. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #133

Is the only choice really to applaud them as heros? gulliver Dec 2013 #136

Well, I do commend Dick Cheney and Rob Portman for supporting same-sex marriage. I no way would I madinmaryland Dec 2013 #141

�This to me is one of the big problems with Republicans, is that they only seem to have empathy PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #142

What is really ironic, is that 53 years ago we elected the first (and only) Catholic to the madinmaryland Dec 2013 #143

No, it is not simplistic. It looks at several issues. It does not look MineralMan Dec 2013 #134

The question itself is simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #139

An organization that is 2000 years old and has 1 billion members will change VERY slowly scheming daemons Dec 2013 #137

We have different perspectives. rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #138

Seems like a fair summation to me Yo_Mama Dec 2013 #146