General Discussion

gulliver

(14,130 posts)

139. The question itself is simplistic.

Thu Dec 26, 2013, 05:43 PM

Dec 2013

You are asking if he should be a progressive example. What if he could be a presidential candidate? You conclude he is basically in the Tea Party camp. But Pope Francis is self-evidently not a friend of the Tea Party, much less a campmate. Therefore, your conclusion alone should have sent you back to the drawing board to check your premise and work.

My opinion? It's the premise. It forced you to take some reasonably good analysis and squeeze it into a simplistic conclusion to bookend the work. You had to break the furniture in about eight places to get it through that narrow door though. Change the premise to something like "Is Pope Francis a Positive Development for Progressives?" and your analysis and conclusion would change. And it would be structurally a lot more sound.

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Is Pope Francis Really a Progressive Example? [View all] MineralMan Dec 2013 OP

I can recongize and join in on his Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #1

And yet, would you support someone who held the same positions MineralMan Dec 2013 #2

I used the word "recognize," Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #7

Sorry, it's a meaningless question. He is head of a religious organization not a head of state. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #8

If Pope Francis were running for office in the US I wouldn't vote for him. el_bryanto Dec 2013 #17

Exactly. He excommunicated a priest who advocated for gay marriage and female clergy. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #3

Thanks! MineralMan Dec 2013 #5

Don't forget the dog eating Communion. rug Dec 2013 #48

No. He allowed an attendee to give a host to his dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #50

Uh, that would be a Yes. rug Dec 2013 #51

Yes, what?? You think the attendee feeding his dog the sacrament is what got the priest PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #52

That is far more likely than criticizing church policies. rug Dec 2013 #60

Don't you see the HYPOCRISY of the pontiff via the censure of �radical feminist� nuns? PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #64

Good illustration of some of these issues. MineralMan Dec 2013 #66

Oh, I see lots of hypocrisy (sic) in this thread. rug Dec 2013 #67

We were actually discussing the censured nuns in our continuing "don't forget" saga. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #71

You were posting about a priest who was excommunicated for his views. rug Dec 2013 #74

Oh please... corrected? You think it was about the fucking DOG? You are wrong. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #78

" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #79

uh... keep reading... not. about. the. dog. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #82

Well done... SidDithers Dec 2013 #88

" . . . and his public celebration of the Eucharist when he did not hold faculties to act publicly" rug Dec 2013 #89

read. the. whole. article. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #90

I've followed this story for the past two years. rug Dec 2013 #94

I wouldn't want him as president, but I think he's great as a pope. EOTE Dec 2013 #4

I'm not a Catholic, or even a Christian. MineralMan Dec 2013 #9

I'm not either as well. I think he should be held up as someone who is taking a very backward EOTE Dec 2013 #18

My opinion is positive. mmonk Dec 2013 #6

Does your Franciscan church celebrate same-sex marriages? MineralMan Dec 2013 #11

where does your "buying it" or not enter the equation? Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #19

DU is a place where people post their opinions of things. MineralMan Dec 2013 #23

my opinion is that you would make a terrible survey designer Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #35

OK. I'm not a survey designer. MineralMan Dec 2013 #63

In submission to your all knowing and perfect judgement, mmonk Dec 2013 #20

That does not answer either of my questions, you know. MineralMan Dec 2013 #21

To answer the best I can since we have been members mmonk Dec 2013 #32

Your church's website about marriage says 'one man, one woman, God' plan' Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #45

I don't dance, I just know about the LGBT Ministry and retreats mmonk Dec 2013 #56

Trying to make you realize I'm on your side. mmonk Dec 2013 #65

You can not serve God and Mammon. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #112

Here is Francis on marriage equality and gay families. Tell me why you see this as Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #24

Obviously not the same as yours and your projections on me. mmonk Dec 2013 #37

And yet when asked to point out these changes you claim to see, you snap at me. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #40

I believe it was you that took exception that I thought he was a positive change. mmonk Dec 2013 #69

I asked you to clarify you confusing position, which you failed to do. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #110

As Pope's go, he's extremely progressive. Schema Thing Dec 2013 #10

I welcome all voters who vote for candidates who are progressive, MineralMan Dec 2013 #13

I too have concern about the social rights attitudes of the Vatican. ananda Dec 2013 #12

Can we legitimately call the Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #15

Obama doesn't pass the PPT either. MindPilot Dec 2013 #14

He talks, the world listens, this is what they hear him say about equal rights for gays: Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #27

Oh I'm very sorry, I was wrong. Fuck the pope. MindPilot Dec 2013 #124

A lot more progressive than his recent predecessors. hobbit709 Dec 2013 #16

K&R Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #22

Thanks. You understood my point in the opening post. MineralMan Dec 2013 #25

Ratz spoke out against capitalism as well. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #28

Exactly. I don't know why suddenly this guy is a hero here. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #58

There are differences in popes. mmonk Dec 2013 #97

What difference? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #98

If you are interested, you should look for yourself. mmonk Dec 2013 #102

You made the claim. The burden of proof is your's, not mine. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #108

I believe you made the claim they are all the same. mmonk Dec 2013 #109

They are all anti gay, anti choice preacher men gathering up the cash. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #116

He's about as progressive as you can get in an institution that is a medieval, Cleita Dec 2013 #26

This is a somewhat unique political combination; Jamaal510 Dec 2013 #29

Read post #3 Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #33

It would be if the 'fiscal progressivism' was anything more than rhetoric Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #36

You got the results you wanted by cherrypicking your categories. Shivering Jemmy Dec 2013 #30

Yup. Lucinda Dec 2013 #39

I picked four categories that affect individuals on an MineralMan Dec 2013 #42

Yeah. Who cares about gays, women, and children. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #87

I missed where they said they don't care about gays, women, and children. madinmaryland Dec 2013 #140

If Phil from Duck Dynasty gave away a million to feed the poor, would his hate speech Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #31

The Tea Party Pope. Oh my.... think Dec 2013 #34

Just as Obama is the Tea Party president. Orsino Dec 2013 #125

I don't dispute your category rankings Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #38

Francis said this about marriage equality. It is hate speech, like Phil the Duck guy. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #41

We are discussing him as pope Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #53

So if I change my name to Goddy McGodster today all I said yesterday is now Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62

I am with you, BNW. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #68

I wish folks would just admit they don't mind the sexism and homophobia and that Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #72

Oh yes, I am from Milwaukee and VERY familiar with Dolan and his ilk. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #76

He didn't claim that. I just pointed out an aspect of Church dogma that predates him Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #75

Have you even read the whole diatribe from his jet which folks distill to 'who am I Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #81

No, it is not OK to be a bigot. Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #92

I have to wonder about the relativity of the term "Progressive." MineralMan Dec 2013 #115

By no standard (other than a highly restrictive internal to high Church leadership one)... Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #119

What's kind of funny to me is that I've always claimed to be MineralMan Dec 2013 #123

But to �not talk about these issues all the time,� for the pope, means silence from the single PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #43

That's not a quote from my post - it's a little bit misleading Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #70

No, it's a Francis quote. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #73

Exiled Popes? Dude, I quote Francis from 2010 and you say 'that was then' but Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #77

I did nothing of the sort Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #84

A 'seat of spiritual power'? No, I don't share Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #103

Your assumptions are showing Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #114

Here's the thing Tom, you guys need to back off pushing Francis as a voice in our Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #118

I don't call him a holy man Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #122

He's heading one of the most arch conservative organizations on the planet Warpy Dec 2013 #44

Reproductive justice and LGBTQ rights are economic issues, too PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #47

Agreed. However, he's still making Scalia squirm Warpy Dec 2013 #49

"he's come out against everything Scalia has ever stood for"? That's not true. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #95

I like his economic pronouncements, too. MineralMan Dec 2013 #54

I find the organization irredeemable. It's been that way for over a thousand years Warpy Dec 2013 #59

I wish I could just ignore the Roman Catholic Church MineralMan Dec 2013 #61

Francis himself has built his career on attacking gay people and to claim otherwise Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #57

What would Free Republic be saying about Pope Francis if he were running for the Presidency? rug Dec 2013 #46

Thank you for your thoughtful, well-reasoned reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #83

There's much more of it there than in your Op. rug Dec 2013 #91

Cool. Again, thanks for your reply. MineralMan Dec 2013 #107

Maybe you can just describe the Free Republic reaction to your analogy. rug Dec 2013 #144

I have no idea. I have not MineralMan Dec 2013 #145

Popes don't run for president. LWolf Dec 2013 #55

Thanks for the Fox News headline.. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #80

You haven't seen that? MineralMan Dec 2013 #85

I see DUers praising his comments against republican/third way trickle-down economics, nothing more. Kermitt Gribble Dec 2013 #130

Ah, a realist. mmonk Dec 2013 #86

That's pretty much how I see it... Wounded Bear Dec 2013 #93

We are supposed to be the people who don't see everything in black-and-white. jeff47 Dec 2013 #96

Ah, but you see, DU isn't really all that. MineralMan Dec 2013 #99

I think you OP is indeed nuanced and a useful starting point for meaningful discussion Tom Rinaldo Dec 2013 #101

Thanks very much. I appreciate your comment. MineralMan Dec 2013 #104

The fact that you're concerned about keeping score is what I'm talking about. jeff47 Dec 2013 #113

Other people here say they love him. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #100

Only when you read the title of their post jeff47 Dec 2013 #105

See link in my edit. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #106

Want me to find a link where someone posts jeff47 Dec 2013 #117

I've provided links for people. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #121

Or course not chungking34 Dec 2013 #111

"Progressive" is a relative term intaglio Dec 2013 #120

Is it a relative term? I'm not sure that's true. MineralMan Dec 2013 #126

There is one Church and many Churches intaglio Dec 2013 #128

I disagree that there is one church. MineralMan Dec 2013 #132

You are confusing the term Church intaglio Dec 2013 #135

Straw Man argument AceWheeler Dec 2013 #127

No. It is not a straw man argument. MineralMan Dec 2013 #129

This is too simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #131

I argue that your point is too simplistic. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #133

Is the only choice really to applaud them as heros? gulliver Dec 2013 #136

Well, I do commend Dick Cheney and Rob Portman for supporting same-sex marriage. I no way would I madinmaryland Dec 2013 #141

�This to me is one of the big problems with Republicans, is that they only seem to have empathy PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #142

What is really ironic, is that 53 years ago we elected the first (and only) Catholic to the madinmaryland Dec 2013 #143

No, it is not simplistic. It looks at several issues. It does not look MineralMan Dec 2013 #134

The question itself is simplistic. gulliver Dec 2013 #139

An organization that is 2000 years old and has 1 billion members will change VERY slowly scheming daemons Dec 2013 #137

We have different perspectives. rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #138

Seems like a fair summation to me Yo_Mama Dec 2013 #146