General Discussion

gulliver

(13,952 posts)

184. You are right. That's not my argument.

Fri Dec 27, 2013, 12:30 PM

Dec 2013

My argument is that we need to go out and vote for anyone with a D, period. Everyone with a D is better than everyone with an R. If your jaw drops at the naivete and "obvious" wrongness of that proposition, then good. We are where we need to be in the conversation.

The "automatic vote" absolutely does get pull. You have to play to win. You may be assuming a too-static politics that doesn't exist in real life. An automatic, certain, Democratic juggernaut of voters wouldn't just support the "bad people" you would prefer to try to starve out. It it would create opportunity for those bad people to be dislodged by "good people."

Right now, the purer play Democrats are at a disadvantage to hedgers, primarily because potentially better leaders have to worry that people won't come to the polls. One or two "they are just like all the rest" ads go out, and the lazy and helpless might rant or cry and stay home. That's why they lose all the time. That's what history shows us.

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Only 22% of Democrats show interest in 2014 voting. Maybe "purists" need to be heard. [View all] madfloridian Dec 2013 OP

du rec. xchrom Dec 2013 #1

Triangulation or "centrism" was always about chasing the money at the detriment of average GoneFishin Dec 2013 #156

Or maybe they need to quiet down a little and rethink their strategy..... AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #2

Yes, it is. Past time. Oops you just used the words "purity politics". Oops madfloridian Dec 2013 #5

we have been hearing now is not the time since 1992 backwoodsbob Dec 2013 #12

We can relax once another Democrat is elected. But not yet. nt AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #19

even if it is a rw or Corporatist dem...if you say so NT backwoodsbob Dec 2013 #20

by "relax", do you mean "we can fight FOR things, rather than just against things"? Ken Burch Dec 2013 #25

Defensive politics have almost never won us any ground... Veilex Dec 2013 #133

What we needed starting a decade and a half back, was More Howard Dean, less Rahm Emanuel. maddiemom Dec 2013 #174

LOL!!! TransitJohn Dec 2013 #31

I know, brilliant parody, right? I think... Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #44

After the Democrat is elected, it will be very important to NOT criticize them. stillwaiting Dec 2013 #76

A real Democrat? MattSh Dec 2013 #134

Good one! City Lights Dec 2013 #170

If "another Democrat" is a euphemism for Hillary, you can forget it. JDPriestly Dec 2013 #208

What happened in 2010 sulphurdunn Dec 2013 #45

Exactly. They, as a group, are precisely the wrong people to achieve anything positive. Egalitarian Thug Dec 2013 #56

The lesson of 2010 is "support must be EARNED...not DEMANDED". Ken Burch Dec 2013 #58

We need to kick the centrists out. Oakenshield Dec 2013 #83

This is an important discussion. kentuck Dec 2013 #86

Well said, Kentuck. No one needs to be kicked out. No one marginalized. madfloridian Dec 2013 #91

the Republican party that had just been completely repudiated at the polls Doctor_J Dec 2013 #95

Hopefully the other "80" ott-percent have woken and now see the reality Left Coast2020 Dec 2013 #140

! City Lights Dec 2013 #171

That's right. LWolf Dec 2013 #73

No, I guess it is time for fascism. PowerToThePeople Dec 2013 #89

as long as it's enacted by Dems, it'd be fine with many here Doctor_J Dec 2013 #96

Our enemies always tell us it's "not time" for us to take a stand on the issues. Just roll over, DC blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #122

If purity politics means voting what you believe in, it's always time for it. merrily Dec 2013 #147

you know... its attempts like this that turned me off even more from fascisthunter Dec 2013 #190

Where Dems lost soundly because they didn't do anything for 2 years? Ash_F Dec 2013 #198

You mean, *couldn't*, mostly, right? AverageJoe90 Dec 2013 #205

No... "wouldn't" /nt Ash_F Dec 2013 #219

You know.. this is the problem right here. nt RedCappedBandit Dec 2013 #220

Gee. Add that to the 50-percent who don't vote no matter what... Octafish Dec 2013 #3

The Party apparatus foisted Obama and his "Change!" on us in '08/'12, knowing full well that it was blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #123

I never bought Obama's populist shtick Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #222

So long as the Repubs only get 21%, we are doing great! kentuck Dec 2013 #4

the fact of the matter is MOST Republican politicians and professional operatives are movement Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #6

Well said, and I would add... Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #39

One problem Andy823 Dec 2013 #52

Not really my point... Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #79

But my point is Andy823 Dec 2013 #177

Compromise takes place when we don't seize the assets of the wealthy... Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #189

"Stand firm on nothing:" Nicely put. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #241

+10 (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #108

And a total takeover by the GOP helps you further your "progressive" goals, how? Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #7

Did I advocate a takeover by the GOP? No, of course I didn't. madfloridian Dec 2013 #11

I don't argue with you. I don't really understand you, but I'm certainly not going to "argue" with Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #17

You continue to argue for a civil-war in the Democratic party... ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2013 #33

Not a Civil War--an Occupation Demeter Dec 2013 #36

We already had a civil war sulphurdunn Dec 2013 #47

No, I did NOT argue for a "civil war" in the party. I certainly did not. Not a Nader voter. madfloridian Dec 2013 #51

And if you just want a Wall Street supporter for president, then Clinton vs. Christie is rhett o rick Dec 2013 #61

"ConservativeDemocrat"??? Democrats aren't conservative. polichick Dec 2013 #93

Good point. kentuck Dec 2013 #94

Real ones aren't MissDeeds Dec 2013 #194

Please look at this chart, and check your eyesight ConservativeDemocrat Dec 2013 #211

A lot of people (Dems included) conflate the two kinds of liberal Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #224

+10 (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #112

Not what madfloridian was calling for and you damn well know it. Ken Burch Dec 2013 #27

Arguing by asking question has a name. It's a technique used by faux News. rhett o rick Dec 2013 #62

+10 (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #110

Exactly. We don't need GOP policy positions in our party. grahamhgreen Dec 2013 #120

When have you ever heard a member of the GOP say Aerows Dec 2013 #203

You guys should start your own party. Oh wait....you did! Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #215

I have no idea who those two people are Aerows Dec 2013 #216

Sounds like they'd be worth investigating for you, since you guys are always pissed at Democrats. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #217

What are you here for? Aerows Dec 2013 #218

I have absolutely nothing in common with the "trashers", and who says they're "Democrats"? You? Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #231

Yeah, I get it. Aerows Dec 2013 #232

Aerows has a mad. I'm crushed, but I'll try & pick up the pieces and move on. Thanks for stop'n by! Tarheel_Dem Dec 2013 #236

Aerows had a LOL :) Aerows Dec 2013 #237

No, just Democrats who think their main job is to avoid upsetting the Republicans Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #226

Excellent post Aerows Dec 2013 #229

Excellent post, thanks. If the Democratic Party doesn't stand for something .... Scuba Dec 2013 #8

Now that's a platform that reflects my values..... think Dec 2013 #21

I bailed on Obama in '12 in red-red TX. The DEMS no longer represent my Values. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #124

corporate network news openfield Dec 2013 #9

That is the gist of my post.... madfloridian Dec 2013 #15

Eventually... kentuck Dec 2013 #10

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. Scuba Dec 2013 #16

Hey, Kentuck! Fucking a' ditty big! Bohunk68 Dec 2013 #152

if the Dems don't lose, how else can they blame their voters? MisterP Dec 2013 #207

Outtstanding.Thank you. abq e streeter Dec 2013 #13

Maybe CNN and the rest of the MSM ProSense Dec 2013 #14

Exactly. treestar Dec 2013 #32

It's unfortunate the Malleable Middle is so easily swayed... WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2013 #175

i do not trust cnn any further than i can throw their building. spanone Dec 2013 #55

Yep, Andy823 Dec 2013 #57

Political mass media exists to sell conservative politics. sulphurdunn Dec 2013 #60

Off topic but here's some local scripting for you: "It's Ok. You can admit it" think Dec 2013 #70

All of those charts shouldn't stop the DC Dems from energizing their voters Doctor_J Dec 2013 #99

It's always ProSense Dec 2013 #166

Rachel Maddow has been suggesting an idea since 2010 that might be worth a try think Dec 2013 #18

Minimum wage sounds like a good issue that will motivate a lot of voters (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #113

Not just minimum wage, but run a campaign on all POPULAR programs. Dawgs Dec 2013 #176

in 1994 AND 2010, the 'pugs won by firing up their base. Dems lost by triangulating. Ken Burch Dec 2013 #22

"Centrism" is the political equivalent of apologizing for your beliefs. A give-away to our enemies.. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #125

If the troops aren't motivated, bvar22 Dec 2013 #23

Yes, well Truman lost control of congress too... Blanks Dec 2013 #200

Vote for your candidate in the Primaries but Cryptoad Dec 2013 #24

That's where I'm at. Working for the liberal candidates in the primaries mountain grammy Dec 2013 #64

I've done that for many years, but will no longer vote for Third Way candidates. polichick Dec 2013 #98

+1. Been there, done that. Never works. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #126

I'll not vote for corporate dems again fascisthunter Dec 2013 #191

Nope. Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #240

Not me,,,I am a proud member of the Democratic Party! Cryptoad Dec 2013 #243

Well, thankfully the Creator gave me a working brain. Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #244

Thats what the Tea Party says too.... nt Cryptoad Dec 2013 #245

Here's the thing with elections (midterms specifically): bobclark86 Dec 2013 #26

+1 (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #114

While I am an unwilling transplant to Florida, HockeyMom Dec 2013 #28

If Scott wins again we are doomed. madfloridian Dec 2013 #29

He should be rotting in one of his private prisons enjoying "food" from private caterers. mountain grammy Dec 2013 #66

Go, GOP-lite, cuz the DEMS can't run a viable campaign in FL or TX any more. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #127

Why are the purists always trying to boss us around? treestar Dec 2013 #30

Explain what a "purist" is, please. What issues do they pursue that you disagree with? nm rhett o rick Dec 2013 #63

Stick with that attitude. You and the president might get the number into the teens Doctor_J Dec 2013 #100

So if 'they' are purist Democrats, and you are not, then you are a diluted Democrat? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #155

Because the purists got results... WorseBeforeBetter Dec 2013 #179

I'm not seeing the connection treestar Dec 2013 #213

Fear of right-wing control is paralyzing Democrats into standing for nothing. kentuck Dec 2013 #34

+1. The DEMS aren't "scared." They're BOUGHT. They're just not supposed to let everyone in on that blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #128

Recommended X 1000! Enthusiast Dec 2013 #35

I just don't think the current DEM Party is "into" us that much. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #129

I guess not. Enthusiast Dec 2013 #137

Here's a thought SCVDem Dec 2013 #37

Nothing to vote FOR; our party has no direction or plan for anything but helping the 1%. nt Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #38

Ironically, the ones who accuse us of being "purists" demand we toe the party line. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2013 #40

+1000 Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #42

Apparently, ProSense Dec 2013 #49

Any dem who doesn't vote should be slapped Indyfan53 Dec 2013 #41

At that rate.. Roci Dec 2013 #43

The DC DEMS are on auto-pilot. 1830, here we come! blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #130

We need to increase turnout for midterm elections Gothmog Dec 2013 #46

Questioning policy good. Drawing lines & purity tests & circular firing squads is bad. Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2013 #48

We had a Democratic nominee who only agreed with 51% of normal Democratic values in 1992 Ken Burch Dec 2013 #50

So? Bush agreed with ~ 90% of Repub values in 2000. See what damage that did to their party. nt Bernardo de La Paz Dec 2013 #54

+10 (nt) reACTIONary Dec 2013 #116

The people we are given to vote for do not intend to legislate anything like what the Dems djean111 Dec 2013 #163

I watched CSpan this morning Washington Journal zeemike Dec 2013 #53

What if it is the nominated Dems' role to PREVENT substantial opposition to the conservative agenda? HomerRamone Dec 2013 #59

I'm not extremely or very enthusiastic about voting in 2014, but you can bet that I will! MNBrewer Dec 2013 #65

what percent voted in 2010? and could it be GOP is just as disinterested if not more so? Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #67

Hell yeah! Maybe next time Nader will carry Florida! 11 Bravo Dec 2013 #68

Nailed it on Duncan and seniors is important, the two sellout issues Dems HAVE to stand up ancianita Dec 2013 #69

Not voting is not unenthusiastic Turbineguy Dec 2013 #71

Mad, these folks aren't generally the pragmatists they claim, they are fundamentalist ideologues TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #72

Very well said. djean111 Dec 2013 #162

This is scary. NT tiredtoo Dec 2013 #74

When I see marriage equality moving forward Curmudgeoness Dec 2013 #75

"People are ready for liberals and liberal ideas." madfloridian Dec 2013 #80

So why can't we sell that to the people running the party??? Curmudgeoness Dec 2013 #82

We are not rich enough. madfloridian Dec 2013 #87

But, damn it, we're smart enough. Curmudgeoness Dec 2013 #88

lol madfloridian Dec 2013 #109

"People are ready for liberals and liberal ideas." blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #131

People need to realize that pragmatism is for politicians and bureaucrats... YoungDemCA Dec 2013 #77

"Who the @$!# else ya gonna vote for, chumps?!" isn't polling MannyGoldstein Dec 2013 #78

Yep, who ya gonna vote for. Curmudgeoness Dec 2013 #90

Hell, our so-called DC DEMS can't even be bothered to fix the black box vote changers. blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #132

Yes...blame the Democrats. Not the people who sit out... Drunken Irishman Dec 2013 #81

Yeah, if your restaurant is failing, blame the people who refuse to eat there, Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #103

...... madfloridian Dec 2013 #111

So, who is failing? We've... reACTIONary Dec 2013 #119

More like deciding to starve because the only restaurant in town isn't to your liking. Drunken Irishman Dec 2013 #136

The food is awful Fumesucker Dec 2013 #138

Then don't eat and die. But don't cry when you're starving. Drunken Irishman Dec 2013 #141

Stop trying to pass shit on a shingle off as haute cusine and maybe people would be less cynical Fumesucker Dec 2013 #143

I don't think you're a simpleton. Stop with the simplistic logic. Drunken Irishman Dec 2013 #144

"You people", eh? Fumesucker Dec 2013 #146

"You people"? You know what, Drunken? My State had record breaking 2010 turnout Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #158

The people we are given to vote for these days have no fucking intention of doing anything liberal, djean111 Dec 2013 #164

Which Circles Back fredamae Dec 2013 #168

Yup. djean111 Dec 2013 #169

And None of it is "Compromise" fredamae Dec 2013 #173

Then let the Dems campaign on doing things for those who are hurting economically Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #180

Very good post. madfloridian Dec 2013 #199

Oh, I'll just eat at home. There is always a third choice, and it is not the Third Way. djean111 Dec 2013 #202

What about the people who are starving, anyway? winter is coming Dec 2013 #209

PERFECT reply! fascisthunter Dec 2013 #192

noby is buying what you are selling anymore fascisthunter Dec 2013 #193

the unions are`t going to quit madrchsod Dec 2013 #84

Kudos to your union, and best of luck. madfloridian Dec 2013 #101

There has to be a two-party system for a country to survive? 47of74 Dec 2013 #85

Markos at Daily Kos. "Daily Kos will not enable those who enable Third Way" madfloridian Dec 2013 #92

Thanks for posting. nt adirondacker Dec 2013 #97

I agree with him on that issue. madfloridian Dec 2013 #102

No argument from me. I was of this mindset back in 04. The party had total control in 08 and adirondacker Dec 2013 #104

Got a link to Mark Udall's enabling? joshcryer Dec 2013 #115

Yes, I do. madfloridian Dec 2013 #149

Dang, didn't know. Udall has been anti-surveillance. joshcryer Dec 2013 #150

I think I'd best describe him as having a bit of a libertarian streak anti partisan Dec 2013 #153

True that. joshcryer Dec 2013 #157

Kick And Recommend cantbeserious Dec 2013 #105

Democrats need to make their own enthusiasm. gulliver Dec 2013 #106

I did not whine, nor did I threaten not to vote. I posted an opinion. madfloridian Dec 2013 #107

If Republicans were smart enough, they would have invented "voter enthusiasm" gulliver Dec 2013 #178

Surely your argument isn't that enthusiastic support of those pushing these policies is going to end TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #151

You are right. That's not my argument. gulliver Dec 2013 #184

tempted to say you are nuts but I think you are being genuine so I'll leave it at counterintuitive TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #204

Do you think its intentional or planned...... Historic NY Dec 2013 #117

The threats to the safety nets and to public education are planned. madfloridian Dec 2013 #118

Let's stop fooling ourselves. The only "firm stances" our so-called DEMS take are all pre-cleared blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #121

Pres @39%?? I'm hoping for change. Flippertygibbit Dec 2013 #135

Put a few torturers on trial and those voting numbers would double instantly Corruption Inc Dec 2013 #139

I am very sorry to say - but the vast overwhelming majority of Americans couldn't care less about Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #172

to be affective advocates for economic justice Democratic politicians and their operatives would Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #142

In other words, the "yuppie Democrats," the ones who say Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #182

Thomas Frank said we have two libertarian/Reaganaut factions pushing for social freedom MisterP Dec 2013 #210

The Sensible Liberal's guide Ichingcarpenter Dec 2013 #145

I never recommend staying home on election day, exactly merrily Dec 2013 #148

The reverse to the OP is also true, don't say our candidates are not "Pure" enough. mikekohr Dec 2013 #154

You seem to think your statements are self-evident. I don't. merrily Dec 2013 #167

Clarity & Purpose are now confused with Purity. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #159

Deliberately. To marginalise, minimize, and attempt to somehow shame into licking the same boot. djean111 Dec 2013 #165

Yes. madfloridian Dec 2013 #212

Begging Dems to support the safety nets, public education, help for unemployed.... madfloridian Dec 2013 #238

I lost my enthusiasm to vote a long time ago. avebury Dec 2013 #160

"Question" party stances? Silent3 Dec 2013 #161

It's a bit of a leap from "very or extremely enthusiastic" to "interested". riqster Dec 2013 #181

Do the math... HoosierCowboy Dec 2013 #183

Goodness, the vitriol in these responses. malthaussen Dec 2013 #185

Maybe purists need to get off their asses and Gman Dec 2013 #186

less than 22% of democrats live in contested districts paulkienitz Dec 2013 #187

I will be voting in 2014. bigwillq Dec 2013 #188

Are you "purists" or are you really "dreamers"? OKNancy Dec 2013 #195

I am neither. madfloridian Dec 2013 #197

Yes. And the candidates who are pushed on us are NEVER going to be liberal. Ever. djean111 Dec 2013 #201

It's certain that you won't get a lot of votes in Oklahoma running on gay marriage, but... Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #221

as I said in the post... OKNancy Dec 2013 #225

How about stopping the waste in the Pentagon? Aerows Dec 2013 #233

We know we are going to get the candidates of the 1% pushed on us harun Dec 2013 #196

I suspect the remaining 78% do not want to express an opinion randr Dec 2013 #206

The definition of insanity Aerows Dec 2013 #214

I think we need to hear some Democrats Aerows Dec 2013 #223

Yes, and tracking down that $1.2 TRILLION that even Dick Cheney Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #227

If that snake was willing to admit that $1.2 Trillion was missing Aerows Dec 2013 #230

Many that I know are feeling more and more R=D=I, none are really for RKP5637 Dec 2013 #228

Which is where failure to lead comes in Aerows Dec 2013 #234

Who defends the working class in this country? workinclasszero Dec 2013 #235

K&R. El_Johns Dec 2013 #239

First, it's corporate SHIT polling. Next, polls mean LITTLE right now. Next, if "progressives" RBInMaine Dec 2013 #242