General Discussion

treestar

(82,383 posts)

87. We got those two things

Sun Dec 29, 2013, 05:43 PM

Dec 2013

People in KY aren't going to vote him out because liberals hate him. KY is a much smaller venue, too. But the voters there have a Senator who reflects a lot of their views. They won't feel powerless and excluded.

Women can be priests in the Catholic Church and have it recognize them as more equal when the women in the church convince the rest of the church. And their allies. The Church won't change because outsiders hate the Pope due to the church's current anachronistic teachings.

Trying to get people to agree out of fear of exclusion only works if you've already crossed the line where society expects a behavior. And that's all we're doing. To hate a bigot means you have to be lowered to his/her level. The Pope especially would be able to look above that.

I don't see a point in zeroing in on the Pope, either. He's not alone responsible for Catholic doctrine. And it has changed over time when the people in the church wanted it to. We aren't still going to confession, being excommunicated, etc., so it has mellowed out over time. Francis' attitude promotes this.

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Stop Fawning Over Pope Francis at the Expense of Women and Gay Rights [View all] Jesus Malverde Dec 2013 OP

Women & LGBT don�t need Catholics to be their friends, we need them to stop actively challenging PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #1

This ^^ is a very important point. Squinch Dec 2013 #110

Many progressive women are Catholics -- in fact, Catholic women pnwmom Dec 2013 #124

That's awesome. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #128

They finance organizations to fight poverty. pnwmom Dec 2013 #139

Again, awesome! But it doesn't change the fact they actively fight against my rights and the rights PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #144

No problem on the economics - TBF Dec 2013 #146

Can't we see a glass half full? treestar Dec 2013 #2

Let's use your analogy. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #5

A bit confused... pipi_k Dec 2013 #39

That's not what I meant. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #40

Pope Francis is not batshit insane. Baitball Blogger Dec 2013 #71

Did I say Pope Francis is batshit insane? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #75

Mea Culpa. Baitball Blogger Dec 2013 #78

We got those two things treestar Dec 2013 #87

Legalizing weed is a trivial issue compared to economic justice for all. pnwmom Dec 2013 #125

Well, yes. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #129

Yes. We must stamp out anything and anyone who isn't ideologically pure LittleBlue Dec 2013 #3

Is it honest to present a request to stop fawning as a demand to 'stamp out' anything? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #21

So why fawn over that? LittleBlue Dec 2013 #34

+100% /nt demwing Dec 2013 #45

I just asked if you think your hyperbolic language is honest. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #57

My hyperbolic language was in response to the hyperbolic language in the OP LittleBlue Dec 2013 #61

The last line is the kicker... PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #4

Bingo. That really IS the kicker. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #11

and completely unable to see how they are intertwined. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #13

Unable or just unwilling? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #31

How are we "tossing aside" issues simply because we see some good coming from Francis? OnionPatch Dec 2013 #114

Nice straw man argument. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #119

Yup. That line absolutely nailed it... SidDithers Dec 2013 #50

Birth control is necessary to economic progress. It's necessary for our environment. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #6

This is the meat and potatoes of the article: Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #7

But but but popey-poo said people should be NICE to us while they strip us of our rights. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #8

He has a really crappy car! LeftyMom Dec 2013 #9

A Renault, FFS. PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #10

Don't forget he's Batman at night Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #16

I'm curious, given all the recent Robertson flap, LadyHawkAZ Dec 2013 #117

He's been in office for, what, eight months? Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #12

How much did Dubya accomplish in his first year? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #15

"called for"? How is that different from the Pope? El_Johns Dec 2013 #17

You focus on that? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #19

Yes, because your key point is that the Pope is all talk -- so why do you include mere talk El_Johns Dec 2013 #23

It wasn't all talk. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #26

Yet Guantanamo is still open. El_Johns Dec 2013 #29

Yeah, congress wouldn't give him the money to do that. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #32

And people here on DU BLAME him for not using the magic wand to make it go POOOOF!!!!!! MADem Dec 2013 #127

The difference between pipi_k Dec 2013 #47

Apples and oranges Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #20

What "moving in the right direction" is happening? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #24

He's changing the emphasis of teh church Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #25

Maslow and Pareto efficiency gulliver Dec 2013 #30

Okay, let's talk about starving people. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #38

Restaurants could also sell nothing but frozen food. gulliver Dec 2013 #51

Restaurants are out to make money. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #59

How much is in your bank account? 401(K)? No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #72

It's not my job to spend all my (meager) money on the poor. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #74

Not the chief function of the Church. Only a secondary mission. No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #77

That's not their job at all, though they do a lot of that. MADem Dec 2013 #130

So, their job is to hoard money and spread their religion? Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #131

Well, you'll have to ask them about that. I do know that their "job" isn't MADem Dec 2013 #132

You are wrong about him being able to change doctrine. A Pope CANNOT change Church doctrine. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #35

He doesn't have to 'let' gay people get married, just stop actively challenging their rights. Same PeaceNikki Dec 2013 #37

Your being perplexed might spring from a lack of knowledge about Francis' role as Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #42

Rudy got an annulment, it is NOT divorce Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #53

His first marriage annulment. The second, the mother of his children, he divorced Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #62

Then, per the Church, Rudy is an adulteror, living in mortal sin Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #66

I was countering the contention that Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #89

Yep, lots of people do what they please, or at least pick what they please Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #93

actually when it comes to supporters of abortion rights dsc Dec 2013 #102

Rudy thinks the rules don't apply to him. He gets away with it, too...! MADem Dec 2013 #133

How is it you deem Rudy Guiliani "a Good Catholic"? No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #73

Who am I to judge? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #90

Um, yes the pope can absolutely change canon law. All popes have. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #44

Those are small changes in Canon Law, NOT changes in Doctrine Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #56

I guess Pope Francis can't wave some magic wand and fix everything then. pa28 Dec 2013 #81

Oh hell no! Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #82

Seemingly we have been going through waves of topics... Jesus Malverde Dec 2013 #112

Your assumption that he wants to 'move the bus' on homophobia in his Church Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #33

Chalk me up as "unaware" Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #43

Can you give examples of what you mean by "ardent & vicious attacker"? As I understand it, El_Johns Dec 2013 #55

Francis said stopping marriage equality was 'God's war'. He said gay relationships Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #63

Just last year Ratzinger said: El_Johns Dec 2013 #67

I've found the source of 3 of your quotes -- all from the same internal El_Johns Dec 2013 #85

He's an absolute monarch whose word is law. He has absolute control over the church. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #41

Not hardly Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #46

Wrong. The pope can change Canon law at any time. NYC Liberal Dec 2013 #49

OK, show me the evidence n/t Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #58

They cannot, because none exists. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #69

"I do not fault them for not agreeing". No Vested Interest Dec 2013 #76

It is sad, because I believe the Roman Catholic Church needs some 21st Century updating Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #79

Thank you. 840high Dec 2013 #107

He is not perfect shenmue Dec 2013 #14

He doesn't have to be perfect.... Bigmack Dec 2013 #18

Remember when Obama's position was "marriage is between a man and a woman- God is in the mix"? Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #22

I remember that he is a politician and he had previously spoken in favor of equality Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #52

I never let up on Obama, either. Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #54

Francis has made no such steps. Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #64

"Pope Francis� representative to Uganda concerned by new anti-gay law" Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #65

yes, but only concerned that the punishment does not fit the sin (the crime) Laughing Mirror Dec 2013 #141

Both the Ugandan Catholic church & the international Catholic church have taken very public El_Johns Dec 2013 #68

82% of Uganda is either Catholic or Anglican, nothing happens there without Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #91

You make that claim; where's your evidence? Are you claiming the Catholic Church runs Uganda? El_Johns Dec 2013 #92

Your claim is that 82% of the population had nothing to do with this law? Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #98

Funny. Your claim amounts to saying that even though both the Ugandan Catholic hierarchy El_Johns Dec 2013 #99

This 'which group of anti gay religionists is most culpable' trip is your own. To me they are all Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #115

Does your dislike of religion give you free rein to misrepresent the facts? El_Johns Dec 2013 #137

Anglican leadership not so silent ... Laughing Mirror Dec 2013 #142

Very public positions since 08? The Pope's assistant has expressed his concern and Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #95

Yes, public positions since '08. There were earlier iterations of this bill, you understand. El_Johns Dec 2013 #96

Some pertinent links theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #145

Ah yes, good old Rick Warren... theHandpuppet Dec 2013 #143

Bahaha! Whatever. Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #27

yeah, because appreciating the Pope addressing cali Dec 2013 #28

cali, look at the number of people in this thread insisting that Francis is tolerant toward Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #36

^^This!^^ mr blur Dec 2013 #100

I haven't seen anyone at DU doing that Warpy Dec 2013 #48

"Fawning" is bad. Biblical social norms are bad. Economic justice is good. Not that complicated. DirkGently Dec 2013 #60

What he said n/t lordsummerisle Dec 2013 #103

Of course! Because it's all or nothing. Lizzie Poppet Dec 2013 #70

Seems to me Flatpicker Dec 2013 #80

So because the Pope didn't instantly stand up against 3000 years of Church Dogma SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #83

+1000 BuddhaGirl Dec 2013 #97

At this point, I think it is fair to say quit the hypocritical gnashing of teeth. TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #84

thank you for this thread. i am getting annoyed with the fawning over this pope Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #86

I like him - that does 840high Dec 2013 #108

i cant like someone who supports second class status for some of humanity Liberal_in_LA Dec 2013 #122

sorry. You don't get to tell me what to think. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #88

fuck that he is a huge shift for the church Egnever Dec 2013 #94

Homophobe, Misogynist, and defender of child rapists... Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #101

"progressive pin up"? rug Dec 2013 #104

life is so simple when there are no shades of grey madrchsod Dec 2013 #105

What? FYI - anyone that turns the stomach of the GOP with his caring... Sarah Ibarruri Dec 2013 #106

Stop telling me what to do oldhippie Dec 2013 #109

Yes and also no DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #111

Recognizing the Pope's emphasis on the poor Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #113

Of course not, but misrepresenting or denying his bigotry and opposition to women's rights is Bluenorthwest Dec 2013 #116

I don't know that many here are "denying his bigotry and opposition to women's rights." Le Taz Hot Dec 2013 #118

You're missing the point entirely. eqfan592 Dec 2013 #120

Exactly AuntPatsy Dec 2013 #126

Oh, brother. LWolf Dec 2013 #121

I don't perceive approval for one or more policy fixes as 'fawning' LanternWaste Dec 2013 #123

Of course! He spoke out against Western corporate malfeasance! We MUST hate him now! Rex Dec 2013 #134

k&r This pope is a homophobic bigot, forced-birther, and protector of institutionalised pedophilia. idwiyo Dec 2013 #135

until he admits his religion like all religions is a fraud bowens43 Dec 2013 #136

Until Obama, or Clinton or Warren or Sanders or ANY politician admits that the state is an Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #147

People fawn after Francis the way the world fawned over Obama after Bush DuaneBidoux Dec 2013 #138

I like this Pope. Beacool Dec 2013 #140