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It's not. It's just a deflective tactic to avoid addressing the issue Scootaloo Dec 2013 #1
And if they don't have a logical, valid reason for their opposition, then there you go... nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #2
An insulting, disrespectful tone will derail effective communication. Voice for Peace Dec 2013 #151
wow, your comment says it all. Vattel Dec 2013 #309
/thread. nt Demo_Chris Dec 2013 #3
Precisely! BainsBane Dec 2013 #7
Yeahhhhhh, no. Tone -is- important. It's not -more- important (duh), but it is/can be... Shandris Dec 2013 #4
the problem with tone is often, too often it is an assumption and wrong. seabeyond Dec 2013 #11
Yes. kcr Dec 2013 #14
I can't speak as to how often tone is used as an excuse; I can only safely speak for... Shandris Dec 2013 #39
I think those currently pushing the "tone shouldn't matter" meme are... stevenleser Dec 2013 #48
But yet I note that you don't want to answer the question kcr Dec 2013 #50
I did answer. I said, it's one thing to be obnoxious to a particular instance of bigotry stevenleser Dec 2013 #52
But that really didn't answer the question kcr Dec 2013 #53
Well, if you are making it into an SAT question, I cant say for sure EVERYONE who is stevenleser Dec 2013 #54
I'm not trying to make it into an SAT question. kcr Dec 2013 #56
Calling those who disagree with you "obnoxious" is not smart. It just alienates your allies. Squinch Dec 2013 #91
i am hearing a bit of snark in your title. tone steven. seabeyond Dec 2013 #155
BINGO! nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #159
Well said! Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #78
so, with no knowledge you have defined others for them? seabeyond Dec 2013 #156
See #48 Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #161
what does 48 have to do with anything. a man that is angry at us, pointing the finger at us, again seabeyond Dec 2013 #164
See #48 Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #174
brilliant. ignore what is actually posted to you with repeat. what does that do? seabeyond Dec 2013 #177
See #48 Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #179
I think if you start paying attention to how frequent bettyellen Dec 2013 #113
you owuld think wrong. it would be those accused of being angry when they are not. it would being seabeyond Dec 2013 #154
+1 NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #180
your whole post is directed at insulting 'they". that is acceptable though your "tone" is fine? seabeyond Dec 2013 #185
"They" are the "ones pushing the tone doesn't matter meme". NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #189
But the argument isn't tone doesn't matter kcr Dec 2013 #192
the point is your whole post is insults toward a group. you define the group. tone pleasant, seabeyond Dec 2013 #195
Well, I can't see any way you would get in trouble over that post. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #198
all in the lungs... thank you. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #200
This is true. HappyMe Dec 2013 #193
how did Tone swing Indiana ... ? Am I missing something? Is that the unrelated thing of which you Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #51
Not that tone swung Indiana... Shandris Dec 2013 #72
yes, very much so. I understand. Thank you Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #157
all i know is more than not, i am being givin an emotion that i am not feeling and i feel is no seabeyond Dec 2013 #163
Well, when I read your post I get a conversational tone. Shandris Dec 2013 #173
i prefer people to ask. allowing one an opportunity to clarify. i am not much into assumptions at seabeyond Dec 2013 #181
Well said. I think we're actually pretty close in this regard, but my verbiage still... Shandris Dec 2013 #187
no. it is not. something happened to my brain along the way. seabeyond Dec 2013 #191
Sounds like a very enlightening journey. My deepest admiration. Shandris Dec 2013 #196
you are fun. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #201
Exactly who am I "mocking"? And I don't particularly need "allies" seeing as I'm a man. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author Shandris Dec 2013 #73
On second thought, I'll merely shake my head at both your implied... Shandris Dec 2013 #75
Hmmmm. You know, I think you would have better luck making your point if you were nicer. Squinch Dec 2013 #82
I guess I should have replied to this one first. Shandris Dec 2013 #140
I am happy with my contribution to the discussion, but thanks for the suggestion. Squinch Dec 2013 #263
So, I take it you don't like the tone of the OP's question. And yet your post is quite snarky. Squinch Dec 2013 #79
You are entirely correct. Shandris Dec 2013 #139
I think being dismissed tends to do that to everyone. Squinch Dec 2013 #142
But why take it so personally to begin with? I didn't single anybody out. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #268
Mainly because it seemed to me to be highly antagonistic... Shandris Dec 2013 #279
Okay, I was a little overzealous myself. Mainly because I was fed up with what I saw as nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #281
Yeah, I can see that. Like I noted in one of my other posts, I was... Shandris Dec 2013 #288
Okay, then I think we're more on the same page than we thought. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #289
Seems fair to me. All's well that ends well... Shandris Dec 2013 #291
I've actually been watching the Niners-Cardinals game, sort of ducking in and out. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #292
Trash thread NoOneMan Dec 2013 #5
Hardly BainsBane Dec 2013 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #27
Awesomely *classy*! pacalo Dec 2013 #71
It looks like you misread her response gollygee Dec 2013 #100
Yes, she often pintobean Dec 2013 #107
Well gollygee Dec 2013 #108
I see what you mean, and believe you're right. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #124
my two cents: Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #6
Well said. I don't care what issue you are trying to further. Tone matters. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #12
It matters. Is it the most important thing? kcr Dec 2013 #20
Nope, not the most important thing. On the rest, by whom and where? On DU? stevenleser Dec 2013 #31
It's not? kcr Dec 2013 #37
Nope, see my #33 below. nt stevenleser Dec 2013 #41
Well, why are you offering response 33 to me? I offered no false choice? kcr Dec 2013 #44
I think the second part of that post applies. stevenleser Dec 2013 #45
You've got me confused with someone else. kcr Dec 2013 #47
i guess if you call a group you have disdain for as generally obnoxious in a pleasant tone, seabeyond Dec 2013 #167
my answers: Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #32
I agree. kcr Dec 2013 #38
yes, Honest anger is far preferable than condscending sarcasm and Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #43
Honest anger is best kcr Dec 2013 #46
Sarcasm can cut both ways tis true but, it is a Tone therefore deserves mention. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #49
but then tuesday, there is the passive aggressive and could be saying the ugliest, in a passive seabeyond Dec 2013 #17
Yes, I understand and the passive/aggessive is the hardest for me to counteract. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #21
sea, regarding your hides being due to your tone ... Not all of your hides should have happened Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #36
If yr talking about not being able to discuss an issue without being abusive... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #9
Yes, as I said in another thread, no DUer is above being called obnoxious. stevenleser Dec 2013 #13
+1 n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #16
Exactly. It applies to arguing any issue here at DU... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #35
and what about the people in this thread subtly talking about others, assigning them characteristics seabeyond Dec 2013 #170
I don't find subtle but polite digs difficult to deal with.... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #301
+1 Yep. nt Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #62
exactly. You are not effective in your argument when you're abusive and you turn people liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #22
It makes them feel superior kcr Dec 2013 #26
I refuse to be sucked into an argument. Go bait someone else. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #28
Suit yourself kcr Dec 2013 #29
ah.... tone. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #169
ditto pintobean Dec 2013 #171
ah.... tone. there is a problem with my tone? i did it pleasantly. i merely pointed out tone. seabeyond Dec 2013 #172
I think you are berating people you feel are doing something wrong here. Squinch Dec 2013 #87
Yes. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #61
161 171 174. what is in those tones? are they obnoxious? productive? will they get a hide? seabeyond Dec 2013 #183
I'm not seeing anything abusive in any of those posts... Violet_Crumble Dec 2013 #302
This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Dec 2013 #208
You asked: The Straight Story Dec 2013 #10
"Sit Down & Shut Up." That's what they always tell us. "Do you want the GOP to win?!!" blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #15
But they have a D next to their name. A D! WowSeriously Dec 2013 #40
rug just posted about exactly this point in "Religion" intaglio Dec 2013 #18
Imagine for a moment everyone on DU behaving that way about their most important issue. stevenleser Dec 2013 #19
This is true intaglio Dec 2013 #23
Not to be pedantic, but those issues were not resolved by being obnoxious on DU stevenleser Dec 2013 #25
So you want people to be polite to those who say ... intaglio Dec 2013 #30
For starters, you offer a false dilemma. There is a lot in between polite and obnoxious. stevenleser Dec 2013 #33
So you are objecting to obnoxious - but you did not make that clear intaglio Dec 2013 #63
Not that "obscenity" doesn't have its place as well - e.g. "Fuck you you fucking racist asshole!" nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #293
being blunt, to the point, factual, honest, does not equal obnoxious. not everyone seabeyond Dec 2013 #175
That is a really good analogy. Squinch Dec 2013 #84
I try to live my signature line. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #160
Because we have Community Standards on DU. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #24
So, it's obvious that there's a poster that you really don't like kcr Dec 2013 #34
That person has had a number of posts hidden recently so that situation will probably be resolved stevenleser Dec 2013 #42
Yes, I saw that. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #64
You object to an abstract reference to women BainsBane Dec 2013 #68
Save it. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #70
It's far from a tirade BainsBane Dec 2013 #74
save it. tirade. slightest bit accurate. seabeyond Dec 2013 #188
Wow pintobean Dec 2013 #194
honestly pinto. with what you did a couple days ago, seabeyond Dec 2013 #197
I think he's referring to how 'you' villified polly7 Dec 2013 #203
stoke the fire, attack the duer, create the outrage... again polly. been there. go at it. seabeyond Dec 2013 #206
Are you seriously unable to understand how what you did was polly7 Dec 2013 #211
Very well said. UtahLib Dec 2013 #216
Nah .......... it's just watching the holier-than-thou polly7 Dec 2013 #224
That was before your time pintobean Dec 2013 #225
You know, pintobean UtahLib Dec 2013 #256
What I did? pintobean Dec 2013 #220
Well that was fairly disgusting! polly7 Dec 2013 #242
Nothing wrong with the tone there, though. pintobean Dec 2013 #246
I can guarantee it won't, in this case. polly7 Dec 2013 #270
You're accusing me of making accusations Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #251
we are focused on tone. the words you chose are hostile. all abotu the tone. seabeyond Dec 2013 #252
I see that it bugs you deeply that you falsely accused someone. nt Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #253
i do not believe i did. i understand you believe it. i think you are wrong. seabeyond Dec 2013 #255
Wrong. There's nothing at all insincere there. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #258
I see that it bugs you deeply that you falsely accused someone seabeyond Dec 2013 #259
Heard of understatement? Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #264
tone.... seabeyond Dec 2013 #265
deaf Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #299
FYI pintobean Dec 2013 #261
if you include me as part of "they" you might want to correct that. seabeyond Dec 2013 #266
Wow, thank you! Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #296
This message was self-deleted by its author Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #57
One of them has more than five hidden posts, yet somehow manages to say afloat. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #58
Community standards doesn't exist. kcr Dec 2013 #59
True. treestar Dec 2013 #138
Community Standards will have its day pretty soon. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #60
a whole post of ugly as you insult others for what you perceive the same? but, that is good, right? seabeyond Dec 2013 #204
Are you saying the rules aren't fair? Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #260
what i said clearly is you had a whole lot of ugly in your post. seabeyond Dec 2013 #269
That's an odd word for you to use. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #298
lmfao. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #275
Exactly right. It should be interesting. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #274
Looks like I'm living rent free in someone's head. Sheldon Cooper Dec 2013 #77
No, but your words and insults leave a mark ... polly7 Dec 2013 #88
Oh polly Sheldon Cooper Dec 2013 #112
Me either ........ polly7 Dec 2013 #119
No one said more important. Bonobo Dec 2013 #55
Except that "being an asshole" is sometimes necessary. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #65
I agree on that Bonobo Dec 2013 #66
When seeking allies in a struggle, it's in the seeker's interest not to be a jerk Orrex Dec 2013 #103
Are they empowered to set these rules? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2013 #166
No one has the power to "set the rules" (except, say, the moderators of a website). nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #267
I can think of one good reason why tone is probably more important at our venue of discussion. pacalo Dec 2013 #67
Because if you alienate all your would-be allies, you won't have any left and your cause will fail. Jester Messiah Dec 2013 #76
That was so nicely put... LOL nt boston bean Dec 2013 #165
It's nice to be nice to the nice. Squinch Dec 2013 #295
It's not more important than the issue. JNelson6563 Dec 2013 #80
Many times the argument of tone is projected when no such thing has taken place. boston bean Dec 2013 #86
Of course, I was thinking real world. JNelson6563 Dec 2013 #96
+1 pintobean Dec 2013 #94
Politicians and corps are focused on marketing (ie the 'con') more than real things on point Dec 2013 #81
Don't want to get negative "tone" from people? 99Forever Dec 2013 #83
Oh, now that isn't nice. Maybe if you said it in a nicer way, people would listen. Squinch Dec 2013 #85
Actually, no they don't. 99Forever Dec 2013 #95
I'm sorry, but you are just alienating your allies, now. Squinch Dec 2013 #97
Funny... 99Forever Dec 2013 #101
And yet look at your response: Squinch Dec 2013 #105
Passive/aggressive bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #115
That wasn't nice. Squinch Dec 2013 #120
But it was true. 99Forever Dec 2013 #122
So sometimes you can make a valid point without being nice? Squinch Dec 2013 #125
I've had my fill of your passive/aggressive bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #129
Ok! Be nice, now! Squinch Dec 2013 #130
oh my Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #168
I know, right? cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #178
It really was. I hate that person got "used" like that but, it just shows how effective Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #182
I totally agree. cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #186
Well played, Squinch! kcr Dec 2013 #190
Excellent, Squinch! boston bean Dec 2013 #210
I've seen more personal attacks against feminists and a group of feminists on DU boston bean Dec 2013 #89
And I've seen exactly the opposite. polly7 Dec 2013 #90
Of course you have. nt boston bean Dec 2013 #92
No, not of course, at all. polly7 Dec 2013 #93
I see a discussion of an issue, where people personally attack, instead of a discussion of the issue boston bean Dec 2013 #99
LOL! polly7 Dec 2013 #102
If you would like to continue in calling people liars instead of the discussing issues boston bean Dec 2013 #104
Link to me calling anyone a liar. polly7 Dec 2013 #106
When you would like to actually discuss a feminist issue with me, let me know. boston bean Dec 2013 #109
No link? polly7 Dec 2013 #110
When you would like to discuss an actual feminist issue, let me know. boston bean Dec 2013 #111
I enjoy very much (mostly reading about) all issues posted here. polly7 Dec 2013 #117
I wouldn't call my characterization of the "tone" argument victimization, but a feminist POV. boston bean Dec 2013 #127
I call it victimization. polly7 Dec 2013 #128
Ok, you call it victimization. boston bean Dec 2013 #131
Yes, you did. polly7 Dec 2013 #134
She obviously doesn't like your tone. /nt pintobean Dec 2013 #141
None of them do. polly7 Dec 2013 #145
And anyone can go to that group pintobean Dec 2013 #153
Yes, I got blocked for calling out a lie. polly7 Dec 2013 #158
I used to go in there. Not any more. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #249
You are right polly, I got down in the mud with you at the beginning of this thread. boston bean Dec 2013 #144
So you were 'untruthful' about that? polly7 Dec 2013 #146
Are you calling me a liar? boston bean Dec 2013 #147
I said you were untruthful about it. Which you were. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #148
LOL. have a good one! boston bean Dec 2013 #149
I think you've hit on it. HappyMe Dec 2013 #133
See that's what I wanted to say, but was distracted with all the personal accusations! polly7 Dec 2013 #135
Why do you hate women? Orrex Dec 2013 #121
LOL. I know, right?! polly7 Dec 2013 #126
It is thinly diguised bullying. HappyMe Dec 2013 #150
Yes, it is .. polly7 Dec 2013 #152
Many of the discussions started on the topics you're talking about Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #199
Really, a post about rape culture that names no one, no group boston bean Dec 2013 #202
Yeah, I'm sure your thread was started to garner discussion... Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #205
Again, projection from you. boston bean Dec 2013 #207
I'm not saying you can't post about it. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #209
In your opinion, again MORE projection. I sat there and participated and boston bean Dec 2013 #212
But, like I said, in the wake of the "gender wars" threads Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #213
Why should I have to expect personal attacks boston bean Dec 2013 #214
You're not innocent in this. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #219
I'm not innocent? I'm guilty of what? Being a feminist some don't like? boston bean Dec 2013 #221
No, not because you're a feminist. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #228
Hmmmm.... My posts that name no one, call out no DUer and represent boston bean Dec 2013 #229
And why should people who are merely telling the *truth* about the world we live in, be personally nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #273
So she should expect personal attacks, but she is the one with the tone problem? Squinch Dec 2013 #307
So she can post about it, but only in a way you approve of... nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #272
I trashed that thread and moved on. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #222
Yeah, so did I. Apparently I'm the one with the problem. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #312
Which one would convince more people, HappyMe Dec 2013 #98
+1000! nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #136
"I personally don't respond well to in your face type argument." NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #227
It also doesn't make you 'heard' HappyMe Dec 2013 #233
Just a personal opinion, Crunchy Frog Dec 2013 #114
It's not. Not at all. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #116
It ain't. Iggo Dec 2013 #118
You're making excuses Feral Child Dec 2013 #123
It naturally distracts the listener treestar Dec 2013 #132
Diversionary tactic by non-progressives. That's what political correctness is, too. valerief Dec 2013 #137
+1 Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #176
It isn't. It's a derailing technique. Starry Messenger Dec 2013 #143
+1. historylovr Dec 2013 #254
Weell, they saayy that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. ananda Dec 2013 #162
The only wrong would be to say or do nothing. seabeyond Dec 2013 #218
Those who say that always seem to me to have missed the point. Squinch Dec 2013 #262
People are almost completely rational creatures. gulliver Dec 2013 #184
well. i made it thru half the thread. posts seem directed exclusively at dissing hof as they seabeyond Dec 2013 #215
Your transparency page begs to differ. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #217
i disagree. seabeyond Dec 2013 #223
and you really ignored what i put in this reply, swinging the conversation in a different direction. seabeyond Dec 2013 #226
I see it much differently... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #230
Can you point me to some threads where you are being discussed and insulted by name on DU? nt boston bean Dec 2013 #231
Not only discussed but insulting replies to me... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #232
I get insulting replies all the time. I want to know if boston bean Dec 2013 #234
In the open asking about links? NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #236
I would need to see the conversation. boston bean Dec 2013 #237
Yeah. It always falls anywhere but the people... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #239
You started it... No you did, No you did, No you did. boston bean Dec 2013 #240
My plan is to see how this place is after Jan 7th or 8th... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #244
see, and i do not know that is true. i do know that on this thread, your posts were seabeyond Dec 2013 #235
See my post 232... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #238
honestly, i cannot recall. i would have to read it. i do know, that over the last couple days, seabeyond Dec 2013 #241
I looked in my history for that thread... NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #243
lol. i really could not recall natural. but, i have appreciated seabeyond Dec 2013 #245
Well I'll tell you a secret-- it depends on the topic ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #247
Sometimes it takes a crowbar, not soft words to separate the true from false seabeyond Dec 2013 #248
So if it's something that YOU think is really, really important.. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #257
Why should women have to constantly coddle male feelings? That's what pisses me off, as a man. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #276
I never said they should. NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #278
Fair enough. But people always seem to try to make it about *their feelings* instead of what's nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #282
Wait...you mean we're ALLOWED to be irritated? NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #283
And what the hell do you, as a man, have to be "irritated" about? Some mean feminist nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #284
What do I have to be irritated about? NaturalHigh Dec 2013 #285
That last line is kind of the whole point I've been trying to make. Thank you for getting it. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #286
No, you didn't get it ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #294
Except I didn't say anything like that. NaturalHigh Jan 2014 #322
It depends on what your goal is. WatermelonRat Dec 2013 #250
Sort of A Sidenote (Re: Phil Robertson) Dirty Socialist Dec 2013 #271
This message was self-deleted by its author nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #277
personally, i thought his words were horrible. i didnt not even notice tone. and yes, seabeyond Dec 2013 #280
I don't think it is but some folks completely key on tone and many other weigh it heavily TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #287
On a practical level, you're right. Emotional content can never be simply disregarded. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #290
pretty passive agressive post. instead of coming out with what you're really talking about here Pretzel_Warrior Dec 2013 #297
It was intended to be general, applicable to any number of things, but in the context of recent nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #300
The science is called propoganda quaker bill Dec 2013 #303
Before this thread wears out, I'd like to add a point. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #304
Kicking for this post. +1 pintobean Dec 2013 #305
Thanks! Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #308
You can expect a lot of that. pintobean Dec 2013 #311
Well said. In_The_Wind Dec 2013 #306
That is so cool! Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #320
You have a funny idea gollygee Dec 2013 #310
"And it certainly isn't abusive behavior to talk about things you don't want talked about." nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #316
"vocal minority feminists" i have not seen one post you have made where you do not insult seabeyond Dec 2013 #313
Me obsessed? You post a ton more than I do. Waiting For Everyman Dec 2013 #319
You will be Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #321
I had an interesting, possibly related, event at work a couple of weeks ago. AZCat Dec 2013 #314
That's a valid point. Shock and outrage have their place, but it's best to use them sparingly. nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #318
Because we're supposed to be allies coming from a similar outlook. MicaelS Dec 2013 #315
But what if otherwise left-leaning people make arguments that smack of right-wing talking points? nomorenomore08 Dec 2013 #317
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»So why exactly is "t...»Reply #306