General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

9. the simple reality is - the cases of diagnosed brain dead patients waking up is so rare I have never

Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:07 PM

Dec 2013

seen it nor has anyone I have ever worked with - anyone in 33 years of caring for mechanically ventilated patients ever seen it. If we stopped harvesting organs from brain dead patients and if we maintained all or most brain dead patients on mechanical ventilation and life support - hospital facilities would very rapidly be overwhelmed with brain dead patients and there would be far fewer resources for treatable illnesses. Even if adopting such a policy might save one or two lives a year out of hundreds of thousands of cases from across the whole world- by denying organ transplants it will cost countless lives - By overwhelming the healthcare systems with nonviable brain dead patients - not one out of thousands and thousands will ever wake up - resources that could save lives will be diverted and that will cost countless loss of lives to viable patients who have illnesses that can be treated.

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Doctors saying brain dead; patients saying otherwise [View all] Th1onein Dec 2013 OP

Interesting Egnever Dec 2013 #1

After reading up on this topic, I think I'm going to stop being an organ donor. Th1onein Dec 2013 #2

Are you the DUer that considers abortion is murder and women who get them murderers? It just uppityperson Dec 2013 #82

Yes. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #91

Thanks, thought she was. Odd how she won't be an organ donor, with that sort of morality uppityperson Dec 2013 #93

Probably thinks doctors can't wait to off a patient to harvest organs. n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #94

She has said in the past that 'no one would want my organs' REP Dec 2013 #110

So....you probably wouldn't accept an organ FarPoint Dec 2013 #123

No. Th1onein Dec 2013 #125

Fair enough. FarPoint Dec 2013 #127

That is so sad. My sister is the director of mental health for a major CA county riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #133

well, how about opting to donate organs that you don't need CreekDog Jan 2014 #176

with 33 years of working full time with ventilated patients I have never seen or heard from any Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #3

why are people's lives talked about in terms of cost? leftyohiolib Dec 2013 #5

the simple reality is - the cases of diagnosed brain dead patients waking up is so rare I have never Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #9

And many are like my mother Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #84

No one is talking about peoples lives MattBaggins Dec 2013 #18

RIIIIIGHT! Let's move their status into the corpse section.... Th1onein Dec 2013 #32

Yes we should move their status thusly MattBaggins Dec 2013 #34

No, we shouldn't. We don't know enough to determine that they are brain dead. Th1onein Dec 2013 #41

The decision actually needs to be left up to the individual, Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #88

"make organs available from people who didn't care enough to make a decision one way or the other." Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2013 #95

In an opt out system - Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #113

Absolutely no. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #163

It is not absolutely wrong. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #165

You are setting yourself up as the arbiter of other people's bodies. That is pure evil. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #166

Anti-choice, really? Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #169

Taking without expressed consent is stealing. Stealing from people's bodies is worse than theft. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #170

Not much reading comprehension going on there. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #171

I responded to your mandated "choice" point. I change nothing about how I responded. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #174

Well, your response is inconsistent with everything else you've been saying then Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #181

I'd say you're fighting a losing battle. enlightenment Jan 2014 #177

That seems to me to be a fair reading of the responses in this subthread. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #182

Why should it be opt out? ohheckyeah Dec 2013 #99

It is a matter of public policy. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #109

I disagree that ohheckyeah Dec 2013 #124

Same way they are aware of any other law. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #153

No, I don't think it would. n/t ohheckyeah Jan 2014 #154

I agree with you, Ms. Toad. Th1onein Dec 2013 #119

Repeatedly saying "period" when you are attempting to make a point LWolf Dec 2013 #115

Your loss. Th1onein Dec 2013 #117

A coma is different than being "brain dead." BigDemVoter Dec 2013 #89

Even as someone who is not in favor of organ donation... Chan790 Dec 2013 #118

I am advocating nothing more than honesty about this topic. Th1onein Dec 2013 #122

A friend of mine took a bullet to the head. notadmblnd Dec 2013 #128

I have no religious beliefs. I am agnostic. Th1onein Dec 2013 #141

For the simple reason that we have limited resources. grantcart Dec 2013 #120

Mistakes can be made bhikkhu Dec 2013 #7

no doubt - Doctors like mechanics and everyone else do make mistakes in diagnoses Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #10

in 2012, my mom suddenly collapsed.it took the EMTs over 20 minutes to get a pulse. dionysus Dec 2013 #121

Mel Brooks: "Always bet on a miracle" bananas Dec 2013 #4

Or intentionally never made sakabatou Dec 2013 #19

This article is over 2 years old and NONE of the 4 patients in the article are Americans riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #6

IMO, you hit the heart of the matter� what is the definition of 'brain dead' used. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #8

not only is it heartless to discourage people from participating in organ donations- it is heartless Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #11

+100000. I'm very uncomfortable with the OP. Thanks for chiming in. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #12

Providing false hope is beyond cruel etherealtruth Dec 2013 #24

American doctors are better at declaring brain death Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #16

Thanks for the correction. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #104

Nowhere in their post did they say no one should volunteer for organ transplant. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #40

I based my response on other posts Th1onein has made in other threads. riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #106

Thanks for that link. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #157

so they've gone to Canada, Australia, France, and a single case in the US magical thyme Dec 2013 #13

The tests for brain death have become less stringent. Th1onein Dec 2013 #14

Do you believe that Jahi is still alive? JNinWB Dec 2013 #17

I believe that it is possible, yes. Th1onein Dec 2013 #21

What criteria used in the current diagnoses by neuro-specialists do you find untrustworthy? JNinWB Dec 2013 #23

Her brain has zero blood flow. It is actively necrosing. Nt Barack_America Dec 2013 #26

Please use more specific language. Th1onein Dec 2013 #33

That's nonsense MattBaggins Dec 2013 #35

Which has very little to do with the subject at hand. Th1onein Dec 2013 #55

Yes I would say that most likely is the case MattBaggins Dec 2013 #64

Yes, yes! We are saying that there is no flow through either. Barack_America Dec 2013 #96

So they've tested whether there is blood flow to the brain? Th1onein Dec 2013 #98

Yes, they tested. No flow. No electrical activity by EEG either. Barack_America Dec 2013 #100

The imaging test, it was an MRI? Th1onein Dec 2013 #101

Say what? What is this "outer layer" you refer to? Barack_America Dec 2013 #90

Didn't you say you were a doctor? Do you what the cortex is? Th1onein Dec 2013 #92

Cortex = gray matter = neuronal cell bodies Barack_America Dec 2013 #97

I know what the cortex is. I disagree with your other statements. Th1onein Dec 2013 #102

what part of that do you disgree with? uppityperson Dec 2013 #114

And everybody knows... sendero Jan 2014 #162

The outer layer of her brain is the neocortex, arthritisR_US Jan 2014 #164

Well, since there are thirty different SETS of criteria...... Th1onein Dec 2013 #30

The Doctors are under no obligation to perform medical procedures on a corpse though. MattBaggins Dec 2013 #36

The person is only a corpse by their defintion, and an artificial one, at that. Th1onein Dec 2013 #52

Great. Please provide all verified and confirmed link from a non-woo sites of brain dead people Nobody You Know Dec 2013 #126

I'm surprised you don't know of these cases. Th1onein Dec 2013 #134

You've already mentioned Zack Dunlap. The other two US stories are vague at best riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #136

Coincidence the Colleen Burns story vankuria Jan 2014 #183

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #167

She has had no blood flow to her brain for almost 2 weeks? There is no Jahi anymore, catbyte Jan 2014 #146

The only reason it's gotten "ghoulish" is because people are fighting for her death. Th1onein Jan 2014 #147

I am sorry I replied to you. I think your agenda is dangerous. Self taught scientist? catbyte Jan 2014 #149

Self-taught scientist is something to be proud of Th1onein Jan 2014 #172

right, like Terri Schiavo responded too� some responses are automatic and have nothing to do KittyWampus Dec 2013 #20

and Terri Schiavo was not even brain dead - she was in a persistent vegitative state - in this case Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #27

Bullshit. Have you done a brain death exam? I have. Barack_America Dec 2013 #28

We don't know enough about the brain to assume brain death, at this point. Th1onein Dec 2013 #31

Yes we do MattBaggins Dec 2013 #37

so the entire scientific consensus supported by almost everyone in the medical sciences Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #38

We are certainly not ranked #1 in medical care in the world. There is always room to liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #42

one thing you will find about every country that ranks higher than the U.S. on over all healthcare Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #49

Just because they declare it sooner doesn't mean it is better. Lots of countries are better overall liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #53

of course - but I trust the judgment of people who have given their entire lives to this work who Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #62

Hey, we used to do lobotomies with ice picks. There was a consensus on that, too. Th1onein Dec 2013 #46

if what you are arguing was just an obtuse point - I wouldn't care - but what you are arguing Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #54

Oh, I guess it drained them before Harvard came up with "brain death"? Th1onein Dec 2013 #58

whether intentional or not - what you are doing is cruel and inhuman and can cause a lot of people a Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #60

I see you didn't bother to argue your previous point. Th1onein Dec 2013 #61

yes it is cruel to bamboozle a family with false hope - it is down right evil Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #65

Once again, no one is promoting giving the family false hope. Th1onein Dec 2013 #68

as long as the family pays for it - I would have no fundamental objection - but it would Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #70

I don't see this happening. Th1onein Dec 2013 #72

Whether intentional or not -- what YOU are doing is cruel and inhuman and can cause a lot of people Th1onein Dec 2013 #80

Believing that artificially supported cardiovascular activity in the absence of brain... Barack_America Dec 2013 #78

You are making assumptions, aren't you? Th1onein Dec 2013 #83

So how do we care for all the brain dead people you refuse to let go of? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #107

did lobotomies work? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #105

Unbelievable. You also believe that tissues can survive without blood flow? Barack_America Dec 2013 #39

You know better than that. Th1onein Dec 2013 #48

You have no clue what you are talking about. Barack_America Dec 2013 #63

Do you always resort to ad hominem attacks when losing an argument? Th1onein Dec 2013 #112

Oh fer Pete's sake MattBaggins Dec 2013 #29

And it's for the benefit of the surgeons, not the corpse. Barack_America Dec 2013 #43

Yes but a good benefit MattBaggins Dec 2013 #45

Absolutely. Nt Barack_America Dec 2013 #51

reflex nerves go between a spot and the spinal cord, not involving the brain at all. uppityperson Dec 2013 #85

It makes me sad to read this Go Vols Dec 2013 #15

Of course it makes you sad. I'm so sorry. Th1onein Dec 2013 #22

I am so sorry. I cannot imagine how hard that is. n-t Logical Dec 2013 #25

I am so sorry, can not imagine. Thank you for allowing his body to help others live. uppityperson Dec 2013 #86

I am sorry for your loss, Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #158

People die every day from misdiagnosis and mistakes... SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #44

Apperently we should keep every corpse that we can MattBaggins Dec 2013 #47

No, but we SHOULD leave it up to the family. Th1onein Dec 2013 #50

No we should not MattBaggins Dec 2013 #56

No one said that anyone should lie to the family. Th1onein Dec 2013 #59

Where do we stop? MattBaggins Dec 2013 #67

Your argument is a bad one, since this has never happened before "brain dead" Th1onein Dec 2013 #71

You misuse terms MattBaggins Dec 2013 #74

We disagree on terms. You choose to label that disagreement as "misuse." Th1onein Dec 2013 #76

There is no infinite supply of money to support the family's delusions. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #57

It is immoral to take the life of one person to save the life of another. Th1onein Dec 2013 #66

It is up to the medical professionals MattBaggins Dec 2013 #69

Please stop stating the obvious. It is not an argument. Th1onein Dec 2013 #73

Yes it is the correct thing to do MattBaggins Dec 2013 #75

Welcome to Ignore, MattBaggins. Th1onein Dec 2013 #77

Fine I will accept your rather ungracious admission that I am correct. MattBaggins Dec 2013 #81

And is it immoral to take the life of a fetus to save a pregnant woman? uppityperson Dec 2013 #87

OMG. So it's okay for these mistakes to happen because we need MORE organ donors. Th1onein Dec 2013 #103

Oh yeah that's exactly what I said... SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #108

That seemed to be the argument that you're making. Th1onein Dec 2013 #116

Thank you. n/t Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #159

From... deathrind Dec 2013 #79

It is one religious quack nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #111

Happy to rec your post and unrec the OP. GoneOffShore Dec 2013 #129

The judge gave the family 840high Dec 2013 #130

There is brain-dead and then there is brain-dead cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #131

Four exceptions do not a new rule make Scootaloo Dec 2013 #132

Except when they illuminate a problem. And, except when all of the others cannot speak. Th1onein Dec 2013 #135

If you were all for it, JTFrog Dec 2013 #137

4 patients in 4 different countries spanning 3 years and you think this is a "problem"? riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #138

Ecxcept they don't illuminate a problem Scootaloo Dec 2013 #139

All mistakes illuminate a problem. That is their nature. Th1onein Dec 2013 #140

...And leave these examinations to board-certified neurologists. Barack_America Dec 2013 #142

Ah yes! Barack_America! Family has no say in these life and death decisions, right! Th1onein Dec 2013 #143

Only physicians can pronounce people dead. Barack_America Dec 2013 #144

You are confused. Th1onein Jan 2014 #145

EEG is absolutely not used to decide brain death in this country. Barack_America Jan 2014 #148

I know that it's not used primarily, but as one tool. Th1onein Jan 2014 #150

I do not know which imaging modality they used. Barack_America Jan 2014 #151

And if her brain was swollen, wouldn't this give a false reading? Th1onein Jan 2014 #156

They used CT and SPECT imaging. Barack_America Jan 2014 #161

But if three quarters of her brain is swollen, what good would either of them do? Th1onein Jan 2014 #173

If those parts of her brain aren't getting blood flow, they are dead. Barack_America Jan 2014 #178

Don't read things into what I say. Th1onein Jan 2014 #179

There was no trauma to Jahi's head. Why do you think her brain is swollen? nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #180

And she's on Vasopressin. Th1onein Jan 2014 #175

But you are claiming it is a systemic problem across the board Scootaloo Jan 2014 #152

We have no way of knowing whether it is systemic or not because the victims are dead. Th1onein Jan 2014 #155

Every once in awhile, a story comes out about someone who woke up Mariana Jan 2014 #160

so they were mis-diagnosed lame54 Jan 2014 #168