General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,694 posts)

102. Do a little research, please.

Tue Dec 31, 2013, 04:20 PM

Dec 2013

Even if all you do is read the links I posted in the first post you responded to.

There are medical studies which show a link between influenza vaccine and miscarriages - particularly in women with a history of miscarriage. I provided links to two of those. There are also flaws in some of the studies which meant the patient pool was biased in such a way that it would have missed the relevant population. So your assertion that the vaccine does not cause miscarriages is not supported by the evidence. That research is still actively going on, and we won't know the answer for some time.

There are also theoretical reasons which explain why repeated miscarriages may be linked to vaccinations. Vaccines contain adjuvants - agents which are designed to alter the body's immune response to the virus or bacteria being immunized against. The are added because (generally) the quantity of viral or bacterial material in a single immunization is not sufficient to provoke an immune response that will create immunity. Adjuvants have been linked to the expression of autoimmune disorders (an increasingly prevalent group of disorders which are generally thought to be expressed as a result of a genetic predisposition and an environmental trigger - like an adjuvant). (Just one article - there are plenty more articles out there from reputable sources.) Some autoimmune disorders cause repeated miscarriages - so that is one possible explanation for the statistical link some studies have found between vaccines and miscarriage in women with a history of miscarriage.

I don't know what her doctor's thinking is. I don't know the cause of her repeated miscarriages. It's really none of my business - or her employer's. That is between her and her doctor.

What I do know is that the concern she expressed is in an area of current and ongoing research, and even though the research is not complete at this point there are already both statistical and theoretical reasons to support her concerns. That is enough for me to say that if her doctor believes she shouldn't have the vaccination, her employer shouldn't require her to choose between following her doctor's advice and her job.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

123 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Pregnant nurse: I was fired for refusing flu vaccine [View all] The Straight Story Dec 2013 OP

At the very worst....a suspension FarPoint Dec 2013 #1

problem is flu season runs a long time, not sure where i stand on this loli phabay Dec 2013 #2

I understand the management of cross-infection. FarPoint Dec 2013 #6

This. She may have been a fantastic nurse for all we know.. Locut0s Dec 2013 #8

Her decision was based upon fear. FarPoint Dec 2013 #17

How does that work? Lost_Count Dec 2013 #10

Most facilities already have "as needed" staffing. FarPoint Dec 2013 #16

A requirement that the nurse use proper infection control is how it's handled in some places. Gormy Cuss Dec 2013 #66

Hmm.. thats a lil too drastic. darkangel218 Dec 2013 #3

I think some kind of exception should be made in extenuating circumstances. AngryOldDem Dec 2013 #4

Good Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #5

Too harsh but she's making a bad choice too... Locut0s Dec 2013 #7

She is a nurse. Vaccination is done to protect her patients, not just her. idwiyo Dec 2013 #9

Good. Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2013 #11

I say good too! B Calm Dec 2013 #12

Certainly she's entitled to do what she wants with herself,but she's NOT entitled to expose patients Hekate Dec 2013 #13

Appropriate Android3.14 Dec 2013 #14

OMG the OUTRAGE! demwing Dec 2013 #100

Fired too much, suspended - yes intaglio Dec 2013 #15

Good... SidDithers Dec 2013 #18

Aside from the risk of exposing her patients, it calls into question her competence. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #19

That is a bit of a stretch.... FarPoint Dec 2013 #20

She thinks a flu shot might cause her to miscarry. LeftyMom Dec 2013 #22

That was my thought, too. n/t kcr Dec 2013 #37

That was my first thought as well. Vashta Nerada Dec 2013 #75

Per CDC she made the list twice, must be a lazy news day CNN eh? snooper2 Dec 2013 #21

Justified firing. As a nurse, if she catches the flu, MineralMan Dec 2013 #23

I agree with firing gerogie2 Dec 2013 #24

Where did you hear that? arikara Dec 2013 #70

Some nice knee-jerkery going on in this thread. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #25

Agreed. redqueen Dec 2013 #29

I was thinking the hospital was right in firing her (because it would protect patients) cinnabonbon Jan 2014 #123

Good research. That changes things entirely. stevenleser Dec 2013 #31

Thanks. n/t Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #93

I still say the hospital was right to fire her. kcr Dec 2013 #36

So you know more than her obstetrician? and her primary care doctor? Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #41

I don't have to know more than they do kcr Dec 2013 #42

You're setting up straw men and batting them down. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #48

I don't think you know what a strawman is kcr Dec 2013 #50

Did I say they had to grant her the same exemptions? Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #59

Well, forgive me for misunderstanding then kcr Dec 2013 #61

Her doctors disagree with you Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #64

The bottom line is her employer doesn't agree with her doctor kcr Dec 2013 #65

Her employers are not privy to her specific medical condition. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #67

No, we aren't kcr Dec 2013 #68

You know - it is really none of your business Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #84

Where does it say her doctor excused her? kcr Dec 2013 #85

You're demanding way too much detail from a short news article. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #89

No, not really. kcr Dec 2013 #92

You are not her doctor. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #94

No, but I can certainly read the article kcr Dec 2013 #97

Do a little research, please. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #102

Sorry kcr Dec 2013 #108

I agree with you. If her doctors want her to skip the vaccination, OwnedByCats Dec 2013 #71

"I don't care what medically is going on." kcr Dec 2013 #77

I don't know that she talked her doctor into anything OwnedByCats Dec 2013 #113

Generally, I don't disagree with that. kcr Dec 2013 #114

You're right OwnedByCats Jan 2014 #117

Unfortunately - yes. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #81

You know something, I've been disagreeing with you lately... Jester Messiah Dec 2013 #52

She works with a company that does in-home nutritional and infusion therapy, NOT a hospital uppityperson Dec 2013 #44

I don't see what the difference is. kcr Dec 2013 #45

I agree, just clearing up that it isn't a hospital. nt uppityperson Dec 2013 #46

okay kcr Dec 2013 #47

I was citing the article when I identified where she worked as a hospital Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #49

It could be they are linked with a hospital, I looked them up directly. uppityperson Dec 2013 #53

I just clicked on their career options Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #60

Our local conglomerate healthcare business started with hospital, then they added support uppityperson Dec 2013 #62

+1 & - I agree with you lunasun Dec 2013 #54

Thanks. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #90

Thank you for the input, Ms. Toad Hekate Dec 2013 #82

You're welcome. n/t Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #91

She shouldn't be working as a nurse if she's pregnant and unvaccinated mainer Dec 2013 #26

Fired is totally correct HERVEPA Dec 2013 #27

So why didn't she say it was for religious reasons, I wonder. ananda Dec 2013 #28

Because she was raised to be honest, perhaps? ScreamingMeemie Dec 2013 #79

I do not get the flu shot, and have not for nearly twenty years. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #30

I read somewhere recently that the shot does cause a reaction in some. Phentex Dec 2013 #33

And that's fine when it's only you involved jeff47 Dec 2013 #34

And the reactions to the shot could get worse Savannahmann Dec 2013 #35

You're taking what I said far too far. jeff47 Dec 2013 #38

The woman in question had three miscarriages Savannahmann Dec 2013 #39

The doctor would have to back that up with something. jeff47 Dec 2013 #40

some people don't get the flu demigoddess Dec 2013 #63

Report to the research lab: science wants a look at your family's DNA! Hekate Dec 2013 #98

mid sixties now and still haven't had it demigoddess Jan 2014 #118

I think part of it has to do libodem Dec 2013 #32

There must be more to this story. Period. No kneejerking until all the info is out. uppityperson Dec 2013 #43

When did it become OK for a corporation to force someone to inject something into their bodies? bonzaga Dec 2013 #51

Most places let you wear a mask instead and limit your involvement with brittle or acute patients uppityperson Dec 2013 #56

+1 darkangel218 Dec 2013 #78

when corporations sign your paycheck and write the rules SoCalDem Dec 2013 #58

If you work at a healthcare facility where flu shots are required, you have to accept SoCalDem Dec 2013 #55

Of course she does know the cdc recommends pregnant women nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #57

This is fucked up. hunter Dec 2013 #69

That's unrealistic, she's a health care worker, and should be expected... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #72

Welcome to Capitalist paradise! hunter Dec 2013 #73

Actually no, even if she was working for a NHS or other type of public system here... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #74

Are you sure you are a "Humanist?" hunter Dec 2013 #88

I'm more concerned about an immuno-compromised patient of hers getting influenza and... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #95

Unless she is a religious wing-nut NoOneMan Dec 2013 #76

Because religion has a privileged place in society, I don't agree with it, I just acknowledge it... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #87

Your assumption that it is based on medical ignorance is misplaced. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #86

So basically its inconclusive and her doctor is trying for the "better safe than sorry" approach... Humanist_Activist Dec 2013 #96

Just because there is a general recommendation for women to be vaccinated Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #106

Most statistical data, taken as a whole, do not support her concern kcr Dec 2013 #115

So you don't like the story as reported, so you just change it. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #116

What did I change about the story? kcr Jan 2014 #119

The story, as reported, is that they do allow religious exemptions. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #120

Where does it say they do not allow medical exemptions. kcr Jan 2014 #122

When even the Huffington Post says it's safe kcr Dec 2013 #99

Seriously? Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #104

Right, because that's the only source. Geeze. kcr Dec 2013 #110

I doubt that's what the communication from her doctor said. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #111

Why is the flu a joking matter? kcr Dec 2013 #112

Catching the flu is far more likely to cause a miscarriage than the shot jeff47 Dec 2013 #101

I suspect from your response that you responded Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #103

Except their advice, and yours, utterly ignores the danger caused by the flu itself. jeff47 Dec 2013 #105

You're making assumptions you don't have the information to support Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #107

No, I'm not. jeff47 Dec 2013 #109

I would have fired her too. backscatter712 Dec 2013 #80

This poor woman has had 3 miscarriages, and she's desperate pnwmom Jan 2014 #121

If her doctor writes her an excuse that should be the end of it Nikia Dec 2013 #83