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Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)

152. But you are claiming it is a systemic problem across the board

Wed Jan 1, 2014, 02:20 AM

Jan 2014

Not a problem with these four individual cases scattered among thousands and thousands of non-problematic cases.

Again, you are using the exceptional as an example of the regular, and it just doesn't work that way.

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Doctors saying brain dead; patients saying otherwise [View all] Th1onein Dec 2013 OP

Interesting Egnever Dec 2013 #1

After reading up on this topic, I think I'm going to stop being an organ donor. Th1onein Dec 2013 #2

Are you the DUer that considers abortion is murder and women who get them murderers? It just uppityperson Dec 2013 #82

Yes. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #91

Thanks, thought she was. Odd how she won't be an organ donor, with that sort of morality uppityperson Dec 2013 #93

Probably thinks doctors can't wait to off a patient to harvest organs. n/t tammywammy Dec 2013 #94

She has said in the past that 'no one would want my organs' REP Dec 2013 #110

So....you probably wouldn't accept an organ FarPoint Dec 2013 #123

No. Th1onein Dec 2013 #125

Fair enough. FarPoint Dec 2013 #127

That is so sad. My sister is the director of mental health for a major CA county riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #133

well, how about opting to donate organs that you don't need CreekDog Jan 2014 #176

with 33 years of working full time with ventilated patients I have never seen or heard from any Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #3

why are people's lives talked about in terms of cost? leftyohiolib Dec 2013 #5

the simple reality is - the cases of diagnosed brain dead patients waking up is so rare I have never Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #9

And many are like my mother Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #84

No one is talking about peoples lives MattBaggins Dec 2013 #18

RIIIIIGHT! Let's move their status into the corpse section.... Th1onein Dec 2013 #32

Yes we should move their status thusly MattBaggins Dec 2013 #34

No, we shouldn't. We don't know enough to determine that they are brain dead. Th1onein Dec 2013 #41

The decision actually needs to be left up to the individual, Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #88

"make organs available from people who didn't care enough to make a decision one way or the other." Nuclear Unicorn Dec 2013 #95

In an opt out system - Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #113

Absolutely no. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #163

It is not absolutely wrong. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #165

You are setting yourself up as the arbiter of other people's bodies. That is pure evil. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #166

Anti-choice, really? Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #169

Taking without expressed consent is stealing. Stealing from people's bodies is worse than theft. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #170

Not much reading comprehension going on there. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #171

I responded to your mandated "choice" point. I change nothing about how I responded. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2014 #174

Well, your response is inconsistent with everything else you've been saying then Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #181

I'd say you're fighting a losing battle. enlightenment Jan 2014 #177

That seems to me to be a fair reading of the responses in this subthread. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #182

Why should it be opt out? ohheckyeah Dec 2013 #99

It is a matter of public policy. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #109

I disagree that ohheckyeah Dec 2013 #124

Same way they are aware of any other law. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #153

No, I don't think it would. n/t ohheckyeah Jan 2014 #154

I agree with you, Ms. Toad. Th1onein Dec 2013 #119

Repeatedly saying "period" when you are attempting to make a point LWolf Dec 2013 #115

Your loss. Th1onein Dec 2013 #117

A coma is different than being "brain dead." BigDemVoter Dec 2013 #89

Even as someone who is not in favor of organ donation... Chan790 Dec 2013 #118

I am advocating nothing more than honesty about this topic. Th1onein Dec 2013 #122

A friend of mine took a bullet to the head. notadmblnd Dec 2013 #128

I have no religious beliefs. I am agnostic. Th1onein Dec 2013 #141

For the simple reason that we have limited resources. grantcart Dec 2013 #120

Mistakes can be made bhikkhu Dec 2013 #7

no doubt - Doctors like mechanics and everyone else do make mistakes in diagnoses Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #10

in 2012, my mom suddenly collapsed.it took the EMTs over 20 minutes to get a pulse. dionysus Dec 2013 #121

Mel Brooks: "Always bet on a miracle" bananas Dec 2013 #4

Or intentionally never made sakabatou Dec 2013 #19

This article is over 2 years old and NONE of the 4 patients in the article are Americans riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #6

IMO, you hit the heart of the matter� what is the definition of 'brain dead' used. KittyWampus Dec 2013 #8

not only is it heartless to discourage people from participating in organ donations- it is heartless Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #11

+100000. I'm very uncomfortable with the OP. Thanks for chiming in. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #12

Providing false hope is beyond cruel etherealtruth Dec 2013 #24

American doctors are better at declaring brain death Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #16

Thanks for the correction. nt riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #104

Nowhere in their post did they say no one should volunteer for organ transplant. liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #40

I based my response on other posts Th1onein has made in other threads. riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #106

Thanks for that link. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #157

so they've gone to Canada, Australia, France, and a single case in the US magical thyme Dec 2013 #13

The tests for brain death have become less stringent. Th1onein Dec 2013 #14

Do you believe that Jahi is still alive? JNinWB Dec 2013 #17

I believe that it is possible, yes. Th1onein Dec 2013 #21

What criteria used in the current diagnoses by neuro-specialists do you find untrustworthy? JNinWB Dec 2013 #23

Her brain has zero blood flow. It is actively necrosing. Nt Barack_America Dec 2013 #26

Please use more specific language. Th1onein Dec 2013 #33

That's nonsense MattBaggins Dec 2013 #35

Which has very little to do with the subject at hand. Th1onein Dec 2013 #55

Yes I would say that most likely is the case MattBaggins Dec 2013 #64

Yes, yes! We are saying that there is no flow through either. Barack_America Dec 2013 #96

So they've tested whether there is blood flow to the brain? Th1onein Dec 2013 #98

Yes, they tested. No flow. No electrical activity by EEG either. Barack_America Dec 2013 #100

The imaging test, it was an MRI? Th1onein Dec 2013 #101

Say what? What is this "outer layer" you refer to? Barack_America Dec 2013 #90

Didn't you say you were a doctor? Do you what the cortex is? Th1onein Dec 2013 #92

Cortex = gray matter = neuronal cell bodies Barack_America Dec 2013 #97

I know what the cortex is. I disagree with your other statements. Th1onein Dec 2013 #102

what part of that do you disgree with? uppityperson Dec 2013 #114

And everybody knows... sendero Jan 2014 #162

The outer layer of her brain is the neocortex, arthritisR_US Jan 2014 #164

Well, since there are thirty different SETS of criteria...... Th1onein Dec 2013 #30

The Doctors are under no obligation to perform medical procedures on a corpse though. MattBaggins Dec 2013 #36

The person is only a corpse by their defintion, and an artificial one, at that. Th1onein Dec 2013 #52

Great. Please provide all verified and confirmed link from a non-woo sites of brain dead people Nobody You Know Dec 2013 #126

I'm surprised you don't know of these cases. Th1onein Dec 2013 #134

You've already mentioned Zack Dunlap. The other two US stories are vague at best riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #136

Coincidence the Colleen Burns story vankuria Jan 2014 #183

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #167

She has had no blood flow to her brain for almost 2 weeks? There is no Jahi anymore, catbyte Jan 2014 #146

The only reason it's gotten "ghoulish" is because people are fighting for her death. Th1onein Jan 2014 #147

I am sorry I replied to you. I think your agenda is dangerous. Self taught scientist? catbyte Jan 2014 #149

Self-taught scientist is something to be proud of Th1onein Jan 2014 #172

right, like Terri Schiavo responded too� some responses are automatic and have nothing to do KittyWampus Dec 2013 #20

and Terri Schiavo was not even brain dead - she was in a persistent vegitative state - in this case Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #27

Bullshit. Have you done a brain death exam? I have. Barack_America Dec 2013 #28

We don't know enough about the brain to assume brain death, at this point. Th1onein Dec 2013 #31

Yes we do MattBaggins Dec 2013 #37

so the entire scientific consensus supported by almost everyone in the medical sciences Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #38

We are certainly not ranked #1 in medical care in the world. There is always room to liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #42

one thing you will find about every country that ranks higher than the U.S. on over all healthcare Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #49

Just because they declare it sooner doesn't mean it is better. Lots of countries are better overall liberal_at_heart Dec 2013 #53

of course - but I trust the judgment of people who have given their entire lives to this work who Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #62

Hey, we used to do lobotomies with ice picks. There was a consensus on that, too. Th1onein Dec 2013 #46

if what you are arguing was just an obtuse point - I wouldn't care - but what you are arguing Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #54

Oh, I guess it drained them before Harvard came up with "brain death"? Th1onein Dec 2013 #58

whether intentional or not - what you are doing is cruel and inhuman and can cause a lot of people a Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #60

I see you didn't bother to argue your previous point. Th1onein Dec 2013 #61

yes it is cruel to bamboozle a family with false hope - it is down right evil Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #65

Once again, no one is promoting giving the family false hope. Th1onein Dec 2013 #68

as long as the family pays for it - I would have no fundamental objection - but it would Douglas Carpenter Dec 2013 #70

I don't see this happening. Th1onein Dec 2013 #72

Whether intentional or not -- what YOU are doing is cruel and inhuman and can cause a lot of people Th1onein Dec 2013 #80

Believing that artificially supported cardiovascular activity in the absence of brain... Barack_America Dec 2013 #78

You are making assumptions, aren't you? Th1onein Dec 2013 #83

So how do we care for all the brain dead people you refuse to let go of? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #107

did lobotomies work? VanillaRhapsody Dec 2013 #105

Unbelievable. You also believe that tissues can survive without blood flow? Barack_America Dec 2013 #39

You know better than that. Th1onein Dec 2013 #48

You have no clue what you are talking about. Barack_America Dec 2013 #63

Do you always resort to ad hominem attacks when losing an argument? Th1onein Dec 2013 #112

Oh fer Pete's sake MattBaggins Dec 2013 #29

And it's for the benefit of the surgeons, not the corpse. Barack_America Dec 2013 #43

Yes but a good benefit MattBaggins Dec 2013 #45

Absolutely. Nt Barack_America Dec 2013 #51

reflex nerves go between a spot and the spinal cord, not involving the brain at all. uppityperson Dec 2013 #85

It makes me sad to read this Go Vols Dec 2013 #15

Of course it makes you sad. I'm so sorry. Th1onein Dec 2013 #22

I am so sorry. I cannot imagine how hard that is. n-t Logical Dec 2013 #25

I am so sorry, can not imagine. Thank you for allowing his body to help others live. uppityperson Dec 2013 #86

I am sorry for your loss, Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #158

People die every day from misdiagnosis and mistakes... SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #44

Apperently we should keep every corpse that we can MattBaggins Dec 2013 #47

No, but we SHOULD leave it up to the family. Th1onein Dec 2013 #50

No we should not MattBaggins Dec 2013 #56

No one said that anyone should lie to the family. Th1onein Dec 2013 #59

Where do we stop? MattBaggins Dec 2013 #67

Your argument is a bad one, since this has never happened before "brain dead" Th1onein Dec 2013 #71

You misuse terms MattBaggins Dec 2013 #74

We disagree on terms. You choose to label that disagreement as "misuse." Th1onein Dec 2013 #76

There is no infinite supply of money to support the family's delusions. HERVEPA Dec 2013 #57

It is immoral to take the life of one person to save the life of another. Th1onein Dec 2013 #66

It is up to the medical professionals MattBaggins Dec 2013 #69

Please stop stating the obvious. It is not an argument. Th1onein Dec 2013 #73

Yes it is the correct thing to do MattBaggins Dec 2013 #75

Welcome to Ignore, MattBaggins. Th1onein Dec 2013 #77

Fine I will accept your rather ungracious admission that I am correct. MattBaggins Dec 2013 #81

And is it immoral to take the life of a fetus to save a pregnant woman? uppityperson Dec 2013 #87

OMG. So it's okay for these mistakes to happen because we need MORE organ donors. Th1onein Dec 2013 #103

Oh yeah that's exactly what I said... SomethingFishy Dec 2013 #108

That seemed to be the argument that you're making. Th1onein Dec 2013 #116

Thank you. n/t Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #159

From... deathrind Dec 2013 #79

It is one religious quack nadinbrzezinski Dec 2013 #111

Happy to rec your post and unrec the OP. GoneOffShore Dec 2013 #129

The judge gave the family 840high Dec 2013 #130

There is brain-dead and then there is brain-dead cthulu2016 Dec 2013 #131

Four exceptions do not a new rule make Scootaloo Dec 2013 #132

Except when they illuminate a problem. And, except when all of the others cannot speak. Th1onein Dec 2013 #135

If you were all for it, JTFrog Dec 2013 #137

4 patients in 4 different countries spanning 3 years and you think this is a "problem"? riderinthestorm Dec 2013 #138

Ecxcept they don't illuminate a problem Scootaloo Dec 2013 #139

All mistakes illuminate a problem. That is their nature. Th1onein Dec 2013 #140

...And leave these examinations to board-certified neurologists. Barack_America Dec 2013 #142

Ah yes! Barack_America! Family has no say in these life and death decisions, right! Th1onein Dec 2013 #143

Only physicians can pronounce people dead. Barack_America Dec 2013 #144

You are confused. Th1onein Jan 2014 #145

EEG is absolutely not used to decide brain death in this country. Barack_America Jan 2014 #148

I know that it's not used primarily, but as one tool. Th1onein Jan 2014 #150

I do not know which imaging modality they used. Barack_America Jan 2014 #151

And if her brain was swollen, wouldn't this give a false reading? Th1onein Jan 2014 #156

They used CT and SPECT imaging. Barack_America Jan 2014 #161

But if three quarters of her brain is swollen, what good would either of them do? Th1onein Jan 2014 #173

If those parts of her brain aren't getting blood flow, they are dead. Barack_America Jan 2014 #178

Don't read things into what I say. Th1onein Jan 2014 #179

There was no trauma to Jahi's head. Why do you think her brain is swollen? nt riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #180

And she's on Vasopressin. Th1onein Jan 2014 #175

But you are claiming it is a systemic problem across the board Scootaloo Jan 2014 #152

We have no way of knowing whether it is systemic or not because the victims are dead. Th1onein Jan 2014 #155

Every once in awhile, a story comes out about someone who woke up Mariana Jan 2014 #160

so they were mis-diagnosed lame54 Jan 2014 #168