General Discussion

Squinch

(59,663 posts)

127. One more observation about your post:

Sat Jan 4, 2014, 02:51 PM

Jan 2014

I don't necessarily agree with you that the people involved in this debate are trolls. I think there is a lot of sincere passion on both sides.

BUT, let's assume you are right. You concede that the problem originates on both sides of the argument. But then you go right back to a paragraph that lays the blame on only one of those sides, and characterize those arguing the other side as just falling into a baited trap.

Do you think that is fair? Aren't both sides of the argument populated by intelligent adults?

Isn't it an insult to the intelligence of those on one side of the argument to excuse their participation by suggesting they are just tricked into that participation by the other side? Isn't it more realistic to see them as equal players?

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

189 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

If you think Feminism is not pro men, [View all] Shankapotomus Jan 2014 OP

Kicked & recommended! In_The_Wind Jan 2014 #1

Well-put. Smarmie Doofus Jan 2014 #2

I always liked this quote by Germaine Greer el_bryanto Jan 2014 #3

"The opposite to patriarchy is not matriarchy but fraternity." redqueen Jan 2014 #4

Yes that's the part that stuck with me as well. el_bryanto Jan 2014 #6

"The opposite to patriarchy is not matriarchy but fraternity." Repeat it. Over and Over. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2014 #7

Amen. cer7711 Jan 2014 #16

Yes. So much. Butterbean Jan 2014 #11

Way to twist the meanings of words. RC Jan 2014 #17

You have fun debating definiions. The rest of us will be over here redqueen Jan 2014 #18

Isn't my idea of Equal Human Right for all, good enough? RC Jan 2014 #22

It's a worthy ideal at the least. But we shouldn't lose sight of where the lines are drawn, which nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #46

Are we all not in this together? Are we not working toward the same goals? RC Jan 2014 #56

I'd like to think we are. And I tend to work off of that assumption, though admittedly not always. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #60

Your second paragraph illuminates the issue very well. nt redqueen Jan 2014 #62

I do not post right wing talking points RC Jan 2014 #107

I wasn't talking about you personally. Just trying to explain what I was getting at. n/t nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #162

It's not nit-picking. This is why. redqueen Jan 2014 #61

I did not say that everyone is equal. Far from it. RC Jan 2014 #125

This sounds more like a justification to be sexist against men davidn3600 Jan 2014 #63

So what's the use of pretending everybody's equal when that is manifestly not the case? nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #64

My version of equality is everyone should be treated the same...period davidn3600 Jan 2014 #65

I think you're using too broad a brush RE: present-day feminism. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #66

"My version of equality is everyone is treated the same way regardless." And do you think that Squinch Jan 2014 #83

I can't agree with your assessment Major Nikon Jan 2014 #69

At the least it would cause people to place more value on the life of the woman involved. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #70

I don't see how Major Nikon Jan 2014 #71

Reproductive rights is a problematic issue to discuss in the context of "equality" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #110

If not "equality" then let's address the issue in terms of women's basic autonomy. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #163

Said Mullahs are both male and female. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #164

I guess the OP was more a response to the knee-jerk contention that feminism is anti-male. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #166

I think that the lessons of feminism; their successes... lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #168

I have no argument whatsoever with this post. Constricting gender roles are bad for everybody. nomorenomore08 Jan 2014 #170

I think that it's important for men to reinvent men. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #172

Exactly the same? Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #76

There's certainly room for both discussions Feral Child Jan 2014 #27

Inspiring quote! Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #5

Unfortunately, many will not time the time to let that sink in ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2014 #20

It's one of the reasons conservatives hate feminism... Wounded Bear Jan 2014 #8

That is an excellent quote. cinnabonbon Jan 2014 #13

A silly far-right pipe dream dressed up in left-wing clothes, I think. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #80

I believe that what Ms Greer was talking about was not getting rid of government organizations el_bryanto Jan 2014 #99

eh qazplm Jan 2014 #117

Here's another one by Germaine Greer Major Nikon Jan 2014 #128

+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #169

Fire! BlueToTheBone Jan 2014 #161

And that's really all there is to it. RedCappedBandit Jan 2014 #9

Agree. ananda Jan 2014 #10

Exactly Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #12

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #30

So true... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #67

If you don't understand that.. sendero Jan 2014 #14

Sad but true. But there's still many good ones, let's not forget. AverageJoe90 Jan 2014 #15

A swing and a miss ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2014 #23

TBH, in some cases, there are misunderstandings that do occur. AverageJoe90 Jan 2014 #24

Are they thinking/saying ... 1StrongBlackMan Jan 2014 #28

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #32

I'd add wryter2000 Jan 2014 #19

The Chalice or the Blade: Choices for our Future, by Riane Eisler Locrian Jan 2014 #21

Such a great book! Squinch Jan 2014 #84

It put a lot of things in perspective... Locrian Jan 2014 #89

I had the same experience with it. It was the book that just shifted my perception Squinch Jan 2014 #90

yep Locrian Jan 2014 #153

A photo from a different thread panader0 Jan 2014 #25

This gives me chills Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #34

Inclusion is the only way to right the wrongs of inequality. RC Jan 2014 #137

Is that why men got the short end of the stick with Obamacare? davidn3600 Jan 2014 #26

Bazinga, right? Feral Child Jan 2014 #29

No, he's part of the Men's Rights crowd nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #39

Ah, another Single-Issue Voter, Feral Child Jan 2014 #72

Deleted by author Feral Child Jan 2014 #73

Nope. He's oppressed by feminists because women no longer pay more than men for insurance because Squinch Jan 2014 #85

Impossible treestar Jan 2014 #33

Of course you ignore the point im making davidn3600 Jan 2014 #35

Don't men benefit from contraception and family planning? treestar Jan 2014 #36

Women are underdog in many areas davidn3600 Jan 2014 #40

Is that true? treestar Jan 2014 #41

Health and Human Services website even has a web page dedicated to it davidn3600 Jan 2014 #42

Cynthia Pearson makes a point treestar Jan 2014 #43

Historically almost all health care research has focused on men. LeftyMom Jan 2014 #47

Yet 9 out of the 10 top diseases kill more men than women davidn3600 Jan 2014 #50

How do you define a "top" disease? For example: "Since 1984, more women than men have died Squinch Jan 2014 #88

Misleading statistic Major Nikon Jan 2014 #147

Excellent link. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #175

Could you provide some kind of details re: your claim about the top diseases? nt redqueen Jan 2014 #121

From the CDC link lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #176

Age adjusted death rate is an important concept to grasp Major Nikon Jan 2014 #181

I'm at a loss as to what "demonstrated need" could possibly mean. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #183

The idea that the ACA is biased against men is what's laughable, and anyone whining to that effect geek tragedy Jan 2014 #38

Not true. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #93

I disagree with that treestar Jan 2014 #95

Certainly biology dictates that men and women have different healthcare needs. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #101

The ACA includes everyone treestar Jan 2014 #108

Men can get PSA cancer screenings lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #113

Somebody call the waaaambulance. Women are paying the same as men., Waaahhh! nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #37

Do you understand what insurance is? NoOneMan Jan 2014 #49

Im not necessarily against the idea that everyone pays equal premiums davidn3600 Jan 2014 #52

The funny thing is the larger struggle for equality is pitting the 99% against each other here NoOneMan Jan 2014 #54

Yeah but that's a different debate davidn3600 Jan 2014 #59

Here's the irony. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #143

General public interest isn't the topic of this thread. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #96

So, "Recon-by-Fire"? Feral Child Jan 2014 #74

Feminism is a progressive movement Rex Jan 2014 #31

Such a simple idea, DirkGently Jan 2014 #44

I totally agree Bonobo Jan 2014 #45

I think its really important to not judge the feminist movement by what goes on here lately NoOneMan Jan 2014 #48

That is a really important point. Bonobo Jan 2014 #51

Very asute observations by both of you ismnotwasm Jan 2014 #53

Absolutely. Bonobo Jan 2014 #55

Feminism isn't any one thing. Ideally, it's both pro-women and pro-men. Silent3 Jan 2014 #57

Feminism is an "ism". nt rrneck Jan 2014 #58

The only thing that's monolithic about feminism is that it is pro women Major Nikon Jan 2014 #68

Probably more accurate to say Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #77

How are these feminists pro men? Major Nikon Jan 2014 #82

Other than Valerie Solanas Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #86

You answered a different question than the one I asked Major Nikon Jan 2014 #100

. Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #104

I'm not sure I can accept that as a universal application Major Nikon Jan 2014 #126

I changed my opinion Boudica the Lyoness Jan 2014 #75

Then consider the possibility Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #81

I don't expect to change your mind about this opinion, but Squinch Jan 2014 #87

... TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #97

That's nice dear. But I do invite you to take a look. Squinch Jan 2014 #98

I read DU the same as you (but with honesty) TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #102

And I will say the same back to you. Squinch Jan 2014 #103

And I will be confused TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #105

In this conversation between you and me, who approached who? Squinch Jan 2014 #106

It's a shame you see it that way. TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #114

So this adds a little more illustration to my point: Squinch Jan 2014 #119

Yep, finished with you, "dear." TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #122

I've been on 164 juries. LAGC Jan 2014 #109

Could that have happened if there weren't a group, equally as vocal and forceful as HoF, Squinch Jan 2014 #111

Perhaps, but... LAGC Jan 2014 #115

I am a host of HoF and I've been here quite awhile, and I am not a troll. boston bean Jan 2014 #116

If we are going to have a conversation about HoF, let's not be precious. Let's say "HoF." Squinch Jan 2014 #120

One more observation about your post: Squinch Jan 2014 #127

I think Feminism 'is' pro men, polly7 Jan 2014 #78

Please name one movement athena Jan 2014 #129

There's a difference between blame and causation. nt Deep13 Jan 2014 #157

I'm sure that applies to some variants... Lost_Count Jan 2014 #79

Recommended. H2O Man Jan 2014 #91

OH you...sometimes I just want to beat you with a wet Mackeral Drew Richards Jan 2014 #187

"Shaved Fish" H2O Man Jan 2014 #188

Feminism is advocacy for women. Everything else is tactics. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #92

Feminism is advocacy for gender equity by removing historic barriers against women. Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #112

A "historic barrier" against women is military service, right? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #118

I've suggested either women ought to register for SS or we shouldn't have it period... Hippo_Tron Jan 2014 #123

Talk is cheap. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #124

I can see why feminists wouldn't have that as number one priority though treestar Jan 2014 #131

There hasn't been a draft for over 40 years, it's not a policy priority for anyone Hippo_Tron Jan 2014 #133

True. And it would put away the perceived unfairness to men treestar Jan 2014 #134

If it's not a #1 feminist priority, then they are not about institutional equality. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #140

The draft has been over for 40 years... Hippo_Tron Jan 2014 #132

It would only be a priority to people motivated by equality. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #138

Because having to register for something that hasn't been used in 40 years KitSileya Jan 2014 #144

I'm saying that if one isn't fighting for equality, they shouldn't clam to be fighters for equality. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #146

I don't agree with you. KitSileya Jan 2014 #150

Alright, fine, feminists don't talk much about the draft. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #158

Since feminism is about advocacy for women, I wouldn't expect them to. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #165

At one point, they did Major Nikon Jan 2014 #184

The draft is only one example...there are many others davidn3600 Jan 2014 #185

All manifestations of the patriarchy that most feminists don't agree with. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #186

Because of gender-specific laws on selective service registration, that's why. Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #136

"or it's an artifact of the process of bargaining done in order to pass this complex bill" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #141

As I already wrote, I don't know enough about the history of those ACA provisions to comment Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #142

Here is the strategic plan for that office Major Nikon Jan 2014 #135

My 'claim' shouldn't be part of a current mission statement for OWH. Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #139

"No demonstrated public policy need." lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #145

A demonstrated public policy need is more than a single statistic. Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #149

Apparently not any large collection of comparable ones either. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #177

Life expectancy A Little Weird Jan 2014 #151

If being a man was deterministic for short lifespan... lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #173

I don't know A Little Weird Jan 2014 #179

If you want to talk outcomes instead of dollars for your metric that's not a problem Major Nikon Jan 2014 #148

Because those facts alone don't demonstrate a need for a separate office for men. Gormy Cuss Jan 2014 #152

So dying sooner and suffering disparately from treatable diseases is not a demonstrated need Major Nikon Jan 2014 #154

But most research into diseases, and especially into cures for diseases are focused on men KitSileya Jan 2014 #156

The NCI funds breast cancer research at almost twice the rate of any other cancer Major Nikon Jan 2014 #159

The NCI funds yes, but how does that stack up with other funds? KitSileya Jan 2014 #160

I don't know, but you might want to check Major Nikon Jan 2014 #178

I agree TroglodyteScholar Jan 2014 #94

Feminism relieves both men and women from gender constraints. nt Deep13 Jan 2014 #130

Depends on the brand of feminism. NaturalHigh Jan 2014 #155

You know nothing about Dworkin. redqueen Jan 2014 #167

I realize you think I'm an uneducated neanderthal... NaturalHigh Jan 2014 #171

For example: NaturalHigh Jan 2014 #174

Dworkin describes coitus as an act of coerced violence, which can be reasonably interpreted as rape Major Nikon Jan 2014 #180

It's important to note LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #182

Correct! I liken it to the end of slavery, and how it was not just good for the former slaves... slor Jan 2014 #189