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In reply to the discussion: Why "fun feminism" should be consigned to the rubbish bin [View all]Catherina
(35,568 posts)186. Nailed it. As always.
I wish I could rec and bookmark your post.
What a disgrace, therefore, that our legacy amounts to this: if you are unhappy with the constraints of your gender, don't challenge them. If you are tired of being stared at for snogging your same-sex partner in the street, have a sex change. Where are those who go berserk about the ethics of genetic engineering yet seem not to worry about major, irreversible surgery on healthy bodies? Also, those who "transition" seem to become stereotypical in their appearance - fuck-me shoes and birds'-nest hair for the boys; beards, muscles and tattoos for the girls. Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of Grease.
~ Julie Bindel
~ Julie Bindel
Now, I find myself disagreeing with Bindel a lot but never more so than on this occasion. I wrote on a comment on a friends blog at the time:
That pretty much sums up my stance, still. Let me develop on a few points. There is no bullet point list of criteria for feminism, and the argument that there is and that you must be a certain type of feminist is hurting the movement. I dont personally have a tolerance for the belief that feminism is some sort of dirty word that should be avoided (and theres a discourse, currently, that we should change the name because its so loaded with negativity), and I have little patience for the argument that the term has come to represent something that is so uncomfortable to many that they would rather deride feminism than identify with it, but at the same time, insisting that there is only one way to do feminism is nonsensical. (That sentence got very long; I apologise.) Its not a case of you are either with us or against us; its a not a binary state. Yes, one would assume that there is a fundamental set of core beliefs that feminists share but there doesnt need to be a rigid typology to which we all must subscribe. Bindel appears to be advocating that there is. If you are not part of a radical movement that seeks to overthrow the patriarchy, then youre not allowed to play in her gang. I mean, who doesnt want to overthrow the patriarchy? I certainly do. But if Im the kind of feminist who doesnt see that as our most crucial goal, would I be any less of a feminist? I dont think I would. If I want my feminism to include men, am I not a feminist any more? Dont be ridiculous!
Which brings me to a related point. We feminists can be an unforgiving lot. We will call you on your privilege, we will tell you each and every time youre being patriarchal, and our ism radar is like a finely tuned military machine. We will shout and scream. (Or maybe thats just me.) The feminist interweb, which is where the majority of the feminist debate takes place now, is a minefield. Half of the feminist blogosphere seems to be waiting for the other half to say something which could remotely, vaguely, even at a stretch be construed as anti-women or anti-feminist. Sometimes this vigilance is welcome (trolls and misogynists are easily identified) but sometimes it means that feminists who have things they want to say are too terrified to say them. If you say something anti-woman/ feminist, then of course you should be called on it but too often thats not the real motivation. In short, what some feminists are very good at doing is silencing other feminists. (If youve ever happened upon some in-fighting between feminists on one of the more popular blogs, youll know what I mean.) As a rule, its the young, new feminists who are most silenced by the older, established (and generally quite privileged) feminists who are there and ready to pounce. I dont think its even a conscious action at times, but it is prevalent. Bindel is one such established (and privileged) feminist. And in defining and stating what she thinks is pointless feminism, she has silenced an enormous number of young feminists who are still trying to find their way with the movement and who have many important things to say.
....
http://tenderhooligan.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/where-julie-bindel-tells-us-all-what-sort-of-feminist-we-should-be/
I have many problems with Bindels piece: shes resolutely opposed to (and seemingly very threatened by) anything post-second-wave and remotely intersectional; she is dictating what type of feminism is acceptable (and what type apparently isnt) and what sort of feminist everyone should be (as if theres a bullet point list of criteria); and shes horribly silencing of young or "just arrived" feminists who are still finding their place in the movement and figuring out where they stand. I thought it was a disgraceful article.
That pretty much sums up my stance, still. Let me develop on a few points. There is no bullet point list of criteria for feminism, and the argument that there is and that you must be a certain type of feminist is hurting the movement. I dont personally have a tolerance for the belief that feminism is some sort of dirty word that should be avoided (and theres a discourse, currently, that we should change the name because its so loaded with negativity), and I have little patience for the argument that the term has come to represent something that is so uncomfortable to many that they would rather deride feminism than identify with it, but at the same time, insisting that there is only one way to do feminism is nonsensical. (That sentence got very long; I apologise.) Its not a case of you are either with us or against us; its a not a binary state. Yes, one would assume that there is a fundamental set of core beliefs that feminists share but there doesnt need to be a rigid typology to which we all must subscribe. Bindel appears to be advocating that there is. If you are not part of a radical movement that seeks to overthrow the patriarchy, then youre not allowed to play in her gang. I mean, who doesnt want to overthrow the patriarchy? I certainly do. But if Im the kind of feminist who doesnt see that as our most crucial goal, would I be any less of a feminist? I dont think I would. If I want my feminism to include men, am I not a feminist any more? Dont be ridiculous!
Which brings me to a related point. We feminists can be an unforgiving lot. We will call you on your privilege, we will tell you each and every time youre being patriarchal, and our ism radar is like a finely tuned military machine. We will shout and scream. (Or maybe thats just me.) The feminist interweb, which is where the majority of the feminist debate takes place now, is a minefield. Half of the feminist blogosphere seems to be waiting for the other half to say something which could remotely, vaguely, even at a stretch be construed as anti-women or anti-feminist. Sometimes this vigilance is welcome (trolls and misogynists are easily identified) but sometimes it means that feminists who have things they want to say are too terrified to say them. If you say something anti-woman/ feminist, then of course you should be called on it but too often thats not the real motivation. In short, what some feminists are very good at doing is silencing other feminists. (If youve ever happened upon some in-fighting between feminists on one of the more popular blogs, youll know what I mean.) As a rule, its the young, new feminists who are most silenced by the older, established (and generally quite privileged) feminists who are there and ready to pounce. I dont think its even a conscious action at times, but it is prevalent. Bindel is one such established (and privileged) feminist. And in defining and stating what she thinks is pointless feminism, she has silenced an enormous number of young feminists who are still trying to find their way with the movement and who have many important things to say.
....
http://tenderhooligan.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/where-julie-bindel-tells-us-all-what-sort-of-feminist-we-should-be/
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It's shame that you can't cross link a post to a specific group though.
Old and In the Way
Mar 2012
#133
I don't get that. There are lots of men that are far more supportive of feminist ideals then some
Jennicut
Mar 2012
#7
my husband was an unwavering supporter of Hillary Clinton in 08. He persuaded me that I
CTyankee
Mar 2012
#101
I would expand on that... the patriarchal system makes finding a mate even harder!
tech_smythe
Mar 2012
#244
I don't think you could transplant today's 3rd wavers into the culture 30-40 years ago
Old and In the Way
Mar 2012
#97
You may be Old and In the Way but I'm pretty sure you're not old enough to remember the 1st wavers
Gormy Cuss
Mar 2012
#134
Actually, back in the late 60's, I was very focused on wave theories.
Old and In the Way
Mar 2012
#144
You mean the sort of angry militancy that tells hetero women they can't be feminists if they're
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2012
#235
i had to go back and read the article, because i did not hear her say any of that.
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#17
Forget interpretation, did you find the overall tone to be positive and welcoming?
Ruby the Liberal
Mar 2012
#31
traditional views of women and feminists themselves... much softer, appealing yet powerful force.
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#131
What? Blacks get to express hatred of white oppression and still get good corporate jobs? Really?
saras
Mar 2012
#216
Radical feminists locate the root cause of women's oppression in patriarchal gender relations
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#29
So you feel that the article, being not radical, represents mainstream acceptable 2012 feminism?
Ruby the Liberal
Mar 2012
#34
There is - first of all, look at the undeniable fact that women are not paid equal to men.
chrisa
Mar 2012
#197
"...is the struggle for equal rights between men and women. Not for men. Men already have more..."
lumberjack_jeff
Mar 2012
#126
we are multi task oriented and falls under human rights and equality. i dont think it is tough
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#128
It wasn't my intent to criticize and yes. You ARE the one who speaks up.
lumberjack_jeff
Mar 2012
#166
"Consistent" I think this word means something other than what you think it means.
lumberjack_jeff
Mar 2012
#178
I was replying to your response to me, where I was speaking originally of this quote:
boston bean
Mar 2012
#83
I wrote "Replace it with Equality" - as in replace the patriarchy with Equality, not a Matriarchy..
boston bean
Mar 2012
#85
Last I heard, the generally used definition of feminism was "equality for women".
lumberjack_jeff
Mar 2012
#122
It is amazing that almost every post I click on has a reply from you. You are crazy great.
HangOnKids
Mar 2012
#102
No, it isn't a promotion of 2nd wave feminism. It's a promotion of Bindel's curious and twisted take
Gormy Cuss
Mar 2012
#153
The more I see, the more I'm convinced it's religious fundamentalism oozing out in a different form.
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2012
#236
Yep. Spot on. "Puritanism is the nagging feeling that someone, somewhere, might be happy"
Taverner
Mar 2012
#157
It started with Girl Power and has sunk into mindless hedonism. Why has sexual equality backfired?
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#160
Isn't calling a woman or group of women "hedonist" a form of an attempt at slut-shaming?
stevenleser
Mar 2012
#201
The thing is, have 50 and 60-somethings EVER wrote about 20something trends and approved?
Warren DeMontague
Mar 2012
#266
It's posts like this that make visiting DU every day a very worthy experience!
bullwinkle428
Mar 2012
#176
It's hard to take anything she says seriously knowing her bigotry toward Transgendered people
stevenleser
Mar 2012
#203
maybe it is not about her believing that it is a reality. maybe it is making a point.
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#264
i get the concept. i played it, too. i think we clearly show an example how the power was not
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#167
I'm afraid that these examples are the end results of the oversexualization of our kids
librechik
Mar 2012
#187
i appreciate you taking account past posts. i value when a poster is able to do that
seabeyond
Mar 2012
#260
Article starts with a failed premise: "If your brand of feminism seems good to men, its bad"
stevenleser
Mar 2012
#195
the author has a few good points but its clouded by her desire to denigrate women
La Lioness Priyanka
Mar 2012
#230
The "radical" feminism I encountered on DU has made me lose a lot of sympathy for feminists...
DutchLiberal
Mar 2012
#237
The author of the posted article is a hater of transsexual people and in general a self
Bluenorthwest
Mar 2012
#241
NEWS FLASH: A 180-degree total inversion of humankind will never, ever happen.
dogknob
Mar 2012
#258