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In reply to the discussion: Man Over pays Child Support, And visits his son too much, Sentenced to 180 Days in Jail [View all]Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)219. Jonathan Swift writes about "The Law" (such as it is) --
"He added, "that he had heard too much upon the subject of war, both in this and some former discourses. There was another point, which a little perplexed him at present. I had informed him, that some of our crew left their country on account of being ruined by law; that I had already explained the meaning of the word; but he was at a loss how it should come to pass, that the law, which was intended for every man's preservation, should be any man's ruin.
Therefore he desired to be further satisfied what I meant by law, and the dispensers thereof, according to the present practice in my own country; because he thought nature and reason were sufficient guides for a reasonable animal, as we pretended to be, in showing us what he ought to do, and what to avoid."
I assured his honour, "that the law was a science in which I had not much conversed, further than by employing advocates, in vain, upon some injustices that had been done me: however, I would give him all the satisfaction I was able."
I said, "there was a society of men among us, bred up from their youth in the art of proving, by words multiplied for the purpose, that white is black, and black is white, according as they are paid. To this society all the rest of the people are slaves.
For example, if my neighbour has a mind to my cow, he has a lawyer to prove that he ought to have my cow from me. I must then hire another to defend my right, it being against all rules of law that any man should be allowed to speak for himself. Now, in this case, I, who am the right owner, lie under two great disadvantages: first, my lawyer, being practised almost from his cradle in defending falsehood, is quite out of his element when he would be an advocate for justice, which is an unnatural office he always attempts with great awkwardness, if not with ill-will.
The second disadvantage is, that my lawyer must proceed with great caution, or else he will be reprimanded by the judges, and abhorred by his brethren, as one that would lessen the practice of the law. And therefore I have but two methods to preserve my cow. The first is, to gain over my adversary's lawyer with a double fee, who will then betray his client by insinuating that he hath justice on his side. The second way is for my lawyer to make my cause appear as unjust as he can, by allowing the cow to belong to my adversary: and this, if it be skilfully done, will certainly bespeak the favour of the bench.
Now your honour is to know, that these judges are persons appointed to decide all controversies of property, as well as for the trial of criminals, and picked out from the most dexterous lawyers, who are grown old or lazy; and having been biased all their lives against truth and equity, lie under such a fatal necessity of favouring fraud, perjury, and oppression, that I have known some of them refuse a large bribe from the side where justice lay, rather than injure the faculty, by doing any thing unbecoming their nature or their office."
It is a maxim among these lawyers that whatever has been done before, may legally be done again: and therefore they take special care to record all the decisions formerly made against common justice, and the general reason of mankind. These, under the name of precedents, they produce as authorities to justify the most iniquitous opinions; and the judges never fail of directing accordingly."
In pleading, they studiously avoid entering into the merits of the cause; but are loud, violent, and tedious, in dwelling upon all circumstances which are not to the purpose. For instance, in the case already mentioned; they never desire to know what claim or title my adversary has to my cow; but whether the said cow were red or black; her horns long or short; whether the field I graze her in be round or square; whether she was milked at home or abroad; what diseases she is subject to, and the like; after which they consult precedents, adjourn the cause from time to time, and in ten, twenty, or thirty years, come to an issue."
It is likewise to be observed, that this society has a peculiar cant and jargon of their own, that no other mortal can understand, and wherein all their laws are written, which they take special care to multiply; whereby they have wholly confounded the very essence of truth and falsehood, of right and wrong; so that it will take thirty years to decide, whether the field left me by my ancestors for six generations belongs to me, or to a stranger three hundred miles off."
In the trial of persons accused for crimes against the state, the method is much more short and commendable: the judge first sends to sound the disposition of those in power, after which he can easily hang or save a criminal, strictly preserving all due forms of law."
Here my master interposing, said, "it was a pity, that creatures endowed with such prodigious abilities of mind, as these lawyers, by the description I gave of them, must certainly be, were not rather encouraged to be instructors of others in wisdom and knowledge."
In answer to which I assured his honour, "that in all points out of their own trade, they were usually the most ignorant and stupid generation among us, the most despicable in common conversation, avowed enemies to all knowledge and learning, and equally disposed to pervert the general reason of mankind in every other subject of discourse as in that of their own profession."
Therefore he desired to be further satisfied what I meant by law, and the dispensers thereof, according to the present practice in my own country; because he thought nature and reason were sufficient guides for a reasonable animal, as we pretended to be, in showing us what he ought to do, and what to avoid."
I assured his honour, "that the law was a science in which I had not much conversed, further than by employing advocates, in vain, upon some injustices that had been done me: however, I would give him all the satisfaction I was able."
I said, "there was a society of men among us, bred up from their youth in the art of proving, by words multiplied for the purpose, that white is black, and black is white, according as they are paid. To this society all the rest of the people are slaves.
For example, if my neighbour has a mind to my cow, he has a lawyer to prove that he ought to have my cow from me. I must then hire another to defend my right, it being against all rules of law that any man should be allowed to speak for himself. Now, in this case, I, who am the right owner, lie under two great disadvantages: first, my lawyer, being practised almost from his cradle in defending falsehood, is quite out of his element when he would be an advocate for justice, which is an unnatural office he always attempts with great awkwardness, if not with ill-will.
The second disadvantage is, that my lawyer must proceed with great caution, or else he will be reprimanded by the judges, and abhorred by his brethren, as one that would lessen the practice of the law. And therefore I have but two methods to preserve my cow. The first is, to gain over my adversary's lawyer with a double fee, who will then betray his client by insinuating that he hath justice on his side. The second way is for my lawyer to make my cause appear as unjust as he can, by allowing the cow to belong to my adversary: and this, if it be skilfully done, will certainly bespeak the favour of the bench.
Now your honour is to know, that these judges are persons appointed to decide all controversies of property, as well as for the trial of criminals, and picked out from the most dexterous lawyers, who are grown old or lazy; and having been biased all their lives against truth and equity, lie under such a fatal necessity of favouring fraud, perjury, and oppression, that I have known some of them refuse a large bribe from the side where justice lay, rather than injure the faculty, by doing any thing unbecoming their nature or their office."
It is a maxim among these lawyers that whatever has been done before, may legally be done again: and therefore they take special care to record all the decisions formerly made against common justice, and the general reason of mankind. These, under the name of precedents, they produce as authorities to justify the most iniquitous opinions; and the judges never fail of directing accordingly."
In pleading, they studiously avoid entering into the merits of the cause; but are loud, violent, and tedious, in dwelling upon all circumstances which are not to the purpose. For instance, in the case already mentioned; they never desire to know what claim or title my adversary has to my cow; but whether the said cow were red or black; her horns long or short; whether the field I graze her in be round or square; whether she was milked at home or abroad; what diseases she is subject to, and the like; after which they consult precedents, adjourn the cause from time to time, and in ten, twenty, or thirty years, come to an issue."
It is likewise to be observed, that this society has a peculiar cant and jargon of their own, that no other mortal can understand, and wherein all their laws are written, which they take special care to multiply; whereby they have wholly confounded the very essence of truth and falsehood, of right and wrong; so that it will take thirty years to decide, whether the field left me by my ancestors for six generations belongs to me, or to a stranger three hundred miles off."
In the trial of persons accused for crimes against the state, the method is much more short and commendable: the judge first sends to sound the disposition of those in power, after which he can easily hang or save a criminal, strictly preserving all due forms of law."
Here my master interposing, said, "it was a pity, that creatures endowed with such prodigious abilities of mind, as these lawyers, by the description I gave of them, must certainly be, were not rather encouraged to be instructors of others in wisdom and knowledge."
In answer to which I assured his honour, "that in all points out of their own trade, they were usually the most ignorant and stupid generation among us, the most despicable in common conversation, avowed enemies to all knowledge and learning, and equally disposed to pervert the general reason of mankind in every other subject of discourse as in that of their own profession."
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Man Over pays Child Support, And visits his son too much, Sentenced to 180 Days in Jail [View all]
Heather MC
Jan 2014
OP
I have never understood why two people that claimed to have loved each other dearly
bluestate10
Jan 2014
#2
Do you work for free? Or are you upset you had to pay for the problems you helped create?
last1standing
Jan 2014
#32
Yes there are a few & we know who they are (talking in terms of local bars)
WolverineDG
Jan 2014
#192
LOL. Anything to keep from having to take responsibility for your own problems.
last1standing
Jan 2014
#228
"Nobody said anything about anyone giving anything away." Isn't that what you wrote?
last1standing
Jan 2014
#244
Wow... we used a "family law" attorney when my husband adopted our daughter...
ScreamingMeemie
Jan 2014
#39
You know most family law attorneys would be happy just to charge a flat fee
WolverineDG
Jan 2014
#191
Yup, my lawyer did the same to me, charged me full hours when split his actual time with several ..
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#108
Fraudulent billing is standard & customary practice in the legal profession.
Egalitarian Thug
Jan 2014
#133
Which has nothing at all to do with the point made. Want to try again? n/t
Egalitarian Thug
Jan 2014
#169
I had my lawyer call me, keep me on the phone for an hour and sent me a bill for $200.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#152
Yes, they could be "working". No way to verify anything really. Just "trust me".
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#172
Even better, you can simply claim to have been thinking about a case and bill it.
Egalitarian Thug
Jan 2014
#171
So in order to "play the game" you feel I must subject myself to fraudulent billing?
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#209
I think lawyers charge exorbitant fees. Not that they have to work for free.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#109
Where does it say that he "overpays his child support and visits his son too much"?
Sheldon Cooper
Jan 2014
#3
I used to work with somebody who couldn't get the State of California off his back
Sen. Walter Sobchak
Jan 2014
#31
I have been a member of the DU "racist hetero patriarchy" for some time
Sen. Walter Sobchak
Jan 2014
#98
As a divorced dad it's my experience that child "support" systems often start with the assumption
villager
Jan 2014
#36
Yes, it's severely scary for fathers out there. The system is just itching to screw them!
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#50
Actually, non-custodial parents of either gender. For a time my ex had custody of my child
GreenEyedLefty
Jan 2014
#142
"Judge Millard tells Fox 26 after she found Hall in contempt he walked out of the courtroom"
Gravitycollapse
Jan 2014
#8
Yes, but he gets paystubs and he knows that he has a child support obligation.
LeftyMom
Jan 2014
#22
I have a friend at work that overpaid by around $6000 because of HER not reporting income!
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#51
Yes, but if the change was not made previously because of the receiving parent's fraud,
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#174
Oh no, I meant to send the check to the CSPA (or local equivalent) NOT to the custodial parent.
LeftyMom
Jan 2014
#55
Also, if he was showing up fore visits (unscheduled) when he shouldn't be that is an issue itself.
boston bean
Jan 2014
#123
What bothers me is that he is being threatened with jail. Throw him in jail and it ruins
madinmaryland
Jan 2014
#27
I personally don't mind the payroll deduction. It ensures I know it is paid and that there are ...
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#49
This exposes the fact that in the family court system, men are treated like garbage.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#33
The feeling you get as a dad in the system is that "all are guilty," axiomatically
villager
Jan 2014
#40
Do you feel threatened by the notion of a man wanting equal rights to his children and...
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#46
Reread your post! You accused women of driving men away and exploiting them for money.
LeftyMom
Jan 2014
#60
You said she's on welfare. They don't give that out to people who are living well.
LeftyMom
Jan 2014
#88
She barely works, she gets $500+ a month on food stamps, my money, tax money (yes EIC included),
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#97
Her not doing well is her CHOICE. She knows she doesn't HAVE to work because ...
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#115
I know everybody has stories. We should all be working for a system that doesn't create these
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#175
Because she gets to claim them because the judge says she gets to claim them.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#151
Exactly. Men fighting that system in order to become an equal parent under the law shows...
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#77
When it really comes down to it. A lot of mothers (not all) really don't want the fathers around.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#80
So the experiences we have as fathers of being treated a certain way by the system...
villager
Jan 2014
#81
So he's part of the system. If he doesn't see there's a bias, then he's lying.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#61
When joint custody is not the default arrangement, the system will always favor women
Major Nikon
Jan 2014
#93
So a man that did the right thing and supported his family BEFORE the divorce,
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#106
So you're saying that men who worked before the divorce aren't equal parents
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#114
First, you've assumed that the father just isn't normally capable of being an equal parent
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#116
I didn't misquote you at all. If the father worked, the mother should have the upper hand.
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#118
Again I never said if the Father works the Mother should have the upper hand.
newcriminal
Jan 2014
#121
Joint physical should not be the default because it does not adequately address the needs of the
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#183
But when you change the default, you but an unreasonable burden on the primary caregiver,
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#189
First, a default that does not take into account the well-being of the child is patently
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#202
Custodial orders don't even happen unless the parents can't work them out on their own
Major Nikon
Jan 2014
#220
I think you haven't read the law you are touting. And if you have read it, you haven't
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#229
Equal parenting is not always in the best interests of the child. Sorry....but it's not. You are
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#234
Anecdotal evidence is shit and you either already know it or should know it
Major Nikon
Jan 2014
#237
I didn't give you anecdotal evidence. I gave you valid hypos which underscore the bad law you tout.
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#238
You are the one advocating for a change in law, it is you who must provide proof that
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#240
You are using a 20-year old study to justify precisely, what? What I am not understanding
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#247
I'm not disagreeing with you that shared parenting is a good thing when it is in the best interests
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#249
The ones that want to participate in their child's life. The ones that don't mind paying a
Darkhawk32
Jan 2014
#101
He'll lose. He admits there was an arrearage and he is responsible for that. Further
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#186
Carefully reading between the lines, this person was screwing around with the support and
msanthrope
Jan 2014
#187