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kentuck

(115,390 posts)

117. But the truth of the matter is that no one knows...

Reply to Th1onein (Reply #103)

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 09:27 PM

Jan 2014

one way or the other. There are no authorities on the matter. Skepticism is a normal human state.

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Searching For The Science Behind Reincarnation [View all] G_j Jan 2014 OP

FFS! If I ever saw a load of crap... And OF COURSE it just had to have "quantum" reference... idwiyo Jan 2014 #1

"Quantum" is the magic word... gcomeau Jan 2014 #302

FFS... there is no "Science of Reincarnation" cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #2

FFS.........There is no woo! Th1onein Jan 2014 #105

If you don't like my reply, put me on ignore cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #129

Glad to oblige. Th1onein Jan 2014 #133

And you're welcome to mine :) eqfan592 Jan 2014 #172

Ditto. Th1onein Jan 2014 #250

What the hell? HappyMe Jan 2014 #3

Well... progressoid Jan 2014 #4

I have vague memories of a case that made headlines 60 or more years ago, where a Cal33 Jan 2014 #5

I recall discussion of the case when I was a child in the 1960s. John1956PA Jan 2014 #35

I remember the Bridey Murphy case. RebelOne Jan 2014 #54

I remember it too ... cvoogt Jan 2014 #83

Bridey Murphy frogmarch Jan 2014 #91

There was additional follow up on the Bridey Murphy case SheilaT Jan 2014 #153

Interesting article JanMichael Jan 2014 #6

totally to be expected G_j Jan 2014 #9

Yes, they are. And what's even more interesting to JanMichael Jan 2014 #10

so far G_j Jan 2014 #13

I am stunned! Stunned, I tell ya! JanMichael Jan 2014 #14

I did, I found it to be fascinating nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #22

Your statement is factually incorrect. eqfan592 Jan 2014 #174

I guess you are correct in that the person mentioned the word "quantum" G_j Jan 2014 #178

Oh? Don't you know, JanMichael? They know EVERYTHING that there is to know. Th1onein Jan 2014 #103

But the truth of the matter is that no one knows... kentuck Jan 2014 #117

You're right, but this woo crap goes way beyond skepticism. Th1onein Jan 2014 #136

Everybody knows what happens after death. TransitJohn Jan 2014 #165

I know what happens after death. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #181

agreed jan michael. if it isnt like dark matter or some such they will attack it. oh wait... roguevalley Jan 2014 #80

What's with this "creepy" thing? eqfan592 Jan 2014 #173

Fear? You might be frightened of death, I am not intaglio Jan 2014 #301

NPR is peddling pseudoscience? Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #7

How so? It is done at an actual university nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #16

It's not science. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #19

So he is not a psychiatrist nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #20

It's okay to be open minded, but not so much that your brain starts spilling out of your head. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #23

So you are cocksure you know what happens after death? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #24

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. G_j Jan 2014 #26

Albert strikes again nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #37

Love that quote! Thanks for sharing 1monster Jan 2014 #79

+1000 kentuck Jan 2014 #118

he definitely had a way with words G_j Jan 2014 #127

perfect. Phlem Jan 2014 #141

That is not an endorsement of magical thinking. Marr Jan 2014 #212

The researcher has been attempting to document a phenomenon that has been well known G_j Jan 2014 #214

I'm sure god is waiting on the other side of the big pearly gates. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #27

Maybe to all of those things B2G Jan 2014 #29

I have no beliefs. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #30

Sure you do B2G Jan 2014 #32

It's not a belief. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #34

I'm not trying to convince you of anything B2G Jan 2014 #41

Many people think the earth is 5,000 years old and it makes sense to them. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #47

That's provably wrong B2G Jan 2014 #53

If you are right we will, if my assumptions are correct we won't. defacto7 Jan 2014 #90

That's very true Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #171

Belief: Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something nt G_j Jan 2014 #42

Your definition is found wanting.... defacto7 Jan 2014 #94

Or maybe you become part of the great information pool nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #36

There's only one way to know what happens after death. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #39

Some folks said the same thing about string theory nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #40

I'm not sure what string theory has to do with this. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #44

I am talking about ultimate conservation of information nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #45

The article you posted is from a philosopher. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #46

And philosophers are working now with PhDs in physics nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #49

somehow I can't imagine G_j Jan 2014 #66

Or Max Plank, or Heisenberg nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #70

Actually, they do say the same thing about string theory. It hasn't been proven true yet... Moonwalk Jan 2014 #92

They used to laugh at string nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #93

So where is the Library of Alexandria today if information is not lost? immoderate Jan 2014 #112

You are seriously saying that the information was lost? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #140

There is a "Theory of Conservation of Information?" immoderate Jan 2014 #151

Quantum mechanics is your friend nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #152

No. Quantum theory does not protect the Library of Alexandria. immoderate Jan 2014 #157

Well, the folks I know in the field nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #158

From your link... FiveGoodMen Jan 2014 #305

Yes, some of the scrolls and tablets at the Library of Alexandria were originals but a Hestia Jan 2014 #290

And when they return to explain their findings? n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #55

A a psychologist talking about quantum theory is like a dentist talking about climate science Scootaloo Jan 2014 #75

HEY! PCIntern Jan 2014 #235

I'm open to the idea of reincarnation. No one has yet been able to kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #63

Let's discuss reincarnation. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #71

Well, duh, that's because all the aliens from those star systems that got Rozlee Jan 2014 #96

Because those two things are not related. SheilaT Jan 2014 #155

expanding population explains why it's atypical. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #169

Because somebody is printing up souls. Captain Stern Jan 2014 #255

You are asking for proof of a negative? Thor_MN Jan 2014 #88

No. I know that negatives cannot be proven. kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #211

I was pretty sure that you knew that, it just the way you worded it. Thor_MN Jan 2014 #216

It's all fun and games making fun of something Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #170

I showed a SCIENCE video to some middle schoolers last school year. It was filled 1monster Jan 2014 #76

What you are highlighting nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #78

Odd. Why would you trust a psychiatrist over any other scientist to figure out if this is true? Moonwalk Jan 2014 #101

He is continuing research that was started fifty years ago nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #104

they wouldn't be. you're talking to nadin here, remember. dionysus Jan 2014 #156

Uncalled for mtnester Jan 2014 #260

The brain is not a quantum computer Shivering Jemmy Jan 2014 #102

I know what happens after death. GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #126

No, you don't actually KNOW, you have an untested hypothesis. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #131

Exactly! marew Jan 2014 #154

When you get a chance could you turn your tv about an inch to the right? snooper2 Jan 2014 #206

It was odd.... Red Mountain Jan 2014 #18

There has been a steady trend ozone_man Jan 2014 #68

We all wish this were true mainer Jan 2014 #8

I listened to the interview in teh morning nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #17

Epiphenomenalism. Utter rot. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #11

From the article: Skidmore Jan 2014 #12

He's been doing this for a long time.......why the NPR interview now? Red Mountain Jan 2014 #65

Which is the crux of it all isn't it, Skidmore? Duality and gravity are the great dividers. Hestia Jan 2014 #292

Except my reality might not be the same as yours and my words here are just ScreamingMeemie Jan 2014 #321

There's a series called The Ghost Inside My Child ecstatic Jan 2014 #15

Just downloaded the book on Kindle B2G Jan 2014 #21

Another intriguing case. A little boy recalls life as a pilot on board WWII aircraft carrier JohnyCanuck Jan 2014 #25

Searching For The Science Behind Reincarnation? 99Forever Jan 2014 #28

Well, the thing is, you will never have what you call "actual science, documented and 1monster Jan 2014 #95

You are woefully ignorant. Th1onein Jan 2014 #106

Do you have a link to the Sagan claim? Logical Jan 2014 #162

see post #201 fishwax Jan 2014 #203

Thanks! nt Logical Jan 2014 #210

Reincarnation assumes a dualistic nature of the human being, which is bunk. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #175

Carl Sagan did not say that. He described that as part of the claim. fishwax Jan 2014 #201

He said more than that. Th1onein Jan 2014 #238

Well, he wrote that about not believing it in a book published the year before he died fishwax Jan 2014 #246

He said there seemed to be no other explanation. Th1onein Jan 2014 #248

The answer is obvious: He came into the present through a tear Dash87 Jan 2014 #31

No science. Done. alarimer Jan 2014 #33

I read some of the research by Ian Stevenson (name?) IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #38

Me too - it was so interesting I stayed up all night reading... polichick Jan 2014 #86

I recommend the book "The quantum enigma" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #43

fascinating G_j Jan 2014 #50

Sorry lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #56

thanks! G_j Jan 2014 #58

very good G_j Jan 2014 #77

Maybe the brain is not understood yet. That does not mean it is.... Logical Jan 2014 #161

True enough. Stories like this are just pieces of evidence. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #168

"It's hard to understand..." Textbook definition of the argument from ignorance fallacy. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #179

No physicists claim to have a good understanding of quantum mechanics. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #204

"We do know that consciousness (or "observation") is intrinsically linked to quantum mechanics" Marr Jan 2014 #278

Amazing, I agree with you about something. :) justiceischeap Jan 2014 #280

Dogma is one of my least favorite things. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #281

Can you suggest any good reading material justiceischeap Jan 2014 #282

I found a link to the full book lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #285

Thank you! nt justiceischeap Jan 2014 #286

While I can imagine matter Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #48

This is a facinating topic 2naSalit Jan 2014 #51

more woo. phhhtttt!! Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #52

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jan 2014 #57

The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF)... gadjitfreek Jan 2014 #59

No one will win it! Many nuts have tried! nt Logical Jan 2014 #163

Is it woo? Dare we ask if it woo? Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2014 #60

The Woo-Woo Credo seems appropriate here, too... SidDithers Jan 2014 #61

Why would you call something that is older than Jesus woo? A Simple Game Jan 2014 #97

And the Bible says the Earth was created in 6 days...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #98

And never says how long a day was. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #119

Oh fuck... SidDithers Jan 2014 #121

No I'm not. I'm not even religious, nor do I take the bible literally like you apparently do. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #122

No, you tried to introduce religious belief... SidDithers Jan 2014 #123

I'm sorry you don't know enough about religion to realize reincarnation is a large part of it. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #135

Suspect my youngest was a Nazi pilot in WWII Thirties Child Jan 2014 #62

Interesting! JanMichael Jan 2014 #82

So you assume all, or even a significant amount of skepticism is due to... Silent3 Jan 2014 #309

You won't be laughed at by me. 3catwoman3 Jan 2014 #84

Though difficult...I would love to believe in reincarnation. Auntie Bush Jan 2014 #99

How does it explain the unfairness of life? Control-Z Jan 2014 #230

Because we are here to learn Thirties Child Jan 2014 #252

Fascinating. redwitch Jan 2014 #64

Most interesting. Thanks. Aldo Leopold Jan 2014 #67

listened to the piece Gore1FL Jan 2014 #69

A lot of scientists would disagree with you. Th1onein Jan 2014 #107

Name 5. n/t Gore1FL Jan 2014 #109

I'm not doing your research for you. Th1onein Jan 2014 #110

I didn't ask you to I asked you to back a claim you made. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #120

You are claiming that what I am saying is untrue. Go and substantiate that claim. Th1onein Jan 2014 #128

You need to make an affirmative argument before I can respond. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #132

The affirmative argument was made with the original post. Th1onein Jan 2014 #137

I said it wasn't science Gore1FL Jan 2014 #139

Science is based on data? NO! ARE YOU SURE? Th1onein Jan 2014 #142

It is a big leap to say "Reincarnation" based on anecdotes. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #150

I'd take your word for it, were it not obvious you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about Th1onein Jan 2014 #261

I see. So anything we can't explain = reincarnation!!! Gore1FL Jan 2014 #277

Oh yeah! That's really what I said! Th1onein Jan 2014 #310

The "scientist" seems to think so. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #313

You are woefully ignorant about this topic, and more than likely, willfully misinformed. Th1onein Jan 2014 #314

Gore1FL, I'm going to go ahead and put you on Ignore. Th1onein Jan 2014 #319

Knock yourself out. n/t Gore1FL Jan 2014 #322

I don't read studies on non-existent things. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #317

Then anything that you don't know about yet, you will never know about. Th1onein Jan 2014 #318

Not true, but your putting me on ignore, so there really is no point in explaining Gore1FL Jan 2014 #323

So case studies are anecdotes? Th1onein Jan 2014 #315

I am educated enough to know there is no such thing as reincarnation. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #316

"you're joining everyone else on my Ignore list." JTFrog Jan 2014 #311

No, no, no, no. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #177

There are hundreds of cases of children seeming to recall former lives. Blue_In_AK Jan 2014 #72

Anecdotal third party claims don't equal science cpwm17 Jan 2014 #73

Do you know ANYTHING about Stevenson's work? ANYTHING? Th1onein Jan 2014 #108

I listened to the audio provided at link cpwm17 Jan 2014 #111

Like I said, Go forth, inform yourself. Th1onein Jan 2014 #113

Bookmarking - thanks! Lucinda Jan 2014 #74

The BBC did a documentary back in 1992 called "In Search of the Dead"- the entire series is online Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #81

oh no � whatever the evidence or lack of, shireen Jan 2014 #85

I was a shaman in a previous life and I DISTINCTLY remember... mike_c Jan 2014 #87

Are you sure that wasn't this life? Rozlee Jan 2014 #100

Absolute 100% unmitigated bullshit Orrex Jan 2014 #89

I think it is a very interesting topic. kentuck Jan 2014 #114

Well, one thing we know - the brain is a piss-poor filter for reality Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2014 #115

Shouldn't they have to prove that it's real first? Iggo Jan 2014 #116

Yup... SidDithers Jan 2014 #124

Even many well accepted scientific theories have no proof - at least not proof in any absolute sense Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #164

I appreciate that you posted this, especially the 2nd link. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #125

that is exactly why I found it interesting G_j Jan 2014 #134

As I said, I remember coming across Stevenson's work some years ago. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #138

I do not understand it either. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #253

Sad pipoman Jan 2014 #130

yep. Phlem Jan 2014 #143

Good point kentuck Jan 2014 #144

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." G_j Jan 2014 #145

Name some! nt Logical Jan 2014 #160

Yes, please, I'd love to see these phenomena that can't be explained by modern science. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #176

Did you read the OP..and the subsequent responses? pipoman Jan 2014 #185

Yes, I did. I still see no reason to believe reincarnation is substantive. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #187

OK then pipoman Jan 2014 #188

Starting with Quantum Mechanics and String theory? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #205

Start with this one. . pipoman Jan 2014 #184

????? Logical Jan 2014 #191

The OP? pipoman Jan 2014 #194

took about 30 seconds: G_j Jan 2014 #195

"Science doesn't yet have the means to provide a conclusive answer" NuclearDem Jan 2014 #196

exactly G_j Jan 2014 #197

But it doesn't mean we can't logically rule out certain supposed explanations. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #198

LOL, nice try, none of that is woo! Who calls it woo? nt Logical Jan 2014 #199

nobody G_j Jan 2014 #200

I don't know what happens after we die Marrah_G Jan 2014 #146

To me, that's what makes these case studies so fascinating. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #147

Thank you so much for saying those three little words that most human beings liberal_at_heart Jan 2014 #328

Thank You For Sharing cantbeserious Jan 2014 #148

knr - very interesting and very valuable Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #149

Oh for the love of... NuclearDem Jan 2014 #159

yet no explanation for these anomalies that have pipoman Jan 2014 #186

And I'm sure there are completely logical explanations to all of them. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #189

Glad you've got it all figured out. . pipoman Jan 2014 #192

No, I don't, and I never said I did. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #193

Apparently at odds with many actual scientists. .. pipoman Jan 2014 #219

Who are these scientists? Other than the two from the University of Virginia. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #220

opinions pipoman Jan 2014 #222

And opinions mean nothing if they're not backed by science. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #223

Who is doing that? pipoman Jan 2014 #224

That Sagan quote is taken out of context. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #227

so you have nothing pipoman Jan 2014 #229

I didn't say I'm right. I just said your arguments were flawed. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #232

If these anecdotes pipoman Jan 2014 #247

+1, this is embarrassing. Marr Jan 2014 #213

I survived the great woo war of 2014. nt awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #166

There have been many stories like this Le Taz Hot Jan 2014 #167

That is my take as well - TBF Jan 2014 #183

"Quantum physics indicates that our physical world may grow out of our consciousness," DetlefK Jan 2014 #180

From the forward of the book Quantum Enigma lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #208

If no consciousness witnesses the world, does it stop existing? DetlefK Jan 2014 #209

One of the most interesting books I've ever read is Many Lives, Many Masters. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #182

Lots of people are terrified at the thought of oblivion. Feral Child Jan 2014 #190

Just think about it you could be reincarnated as a Republican. gordianot Jan 2014 #202

Maybe researchers should investigate all the zombie accounts created at DU... SidDithers Jan 2014 #207

Carl Sagan's commentary on Ian Stevenson LongTomH Jan 2014 #215

Heh. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #217

Thanks for the quote. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #218

Well, it is getting crowded down here nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #221

I do NOT want reincarnation to be true. One life is plenty. However, pnwmom Jan 2014 #225

It does, let me direct you to a long post I did somewhere else nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #226

The quote has been edited. Bradical79 Jan 2014 #249

That quote was taken out of context. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #228

I wasn't trying to "prove reincarnation" LongTomH Jan 2014 #231

What the quote does show Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #233

It doesn't deserve the time of day. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #236

You do not know what you are talking about. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #240

Don't worry, I'm pretty convinced you don't either NuclearDem Jan 2014 #243

Have you read Dr. Stevenson's research? Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #244

While your personality does die nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #242

FFS!!!! Kali Jan 2014 #245

Completely irrelevant what Sagan said on the subject. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #234

good for you G_j Jan 2014 #239

You should have typed this after your quote justiceischeap Jan 2014 #283

here is an interesting or at least entertaining video Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #237

A 1992 BBC documentary that some here might find interesting Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #241

These seem to have been pulled from YT. nt justiceischeap Jan 2014 #284

I found a repost - In Search of the Dead - Episode 1 - Powers of the Mind (Documentary) Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #300

I wonder why poor people who never do shit and live lives of quiet misery Agnosticsherbet Jan 2014 #251

Always happy to read stories like these and may I suggest.... KaryninMiami Jan 2014 #254

My question to proponents or believers of this would be fujiyama Jan 2014 #256

Some of your questions are addressed in the literature by IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #287

Well the soul is generally not part of the conversation. nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #289

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. kentuck Jan 2014 #257

Conservation of energy is not a good argument for reincarnation or life after death Silent3 Jan 2014 #258

I don't think Einstein was talking about "conservation"? kentuck Jan 2014 #259

What Einstein is quoted as saying here is just a rephrasing of the first law... Silent3 Jan 2014 #263

To deny the existence of pipoman Jan 2014 #265

Even if there is reincarnation, trying to support it with the wrong science... Silent3 Jan 2014 #267

I will agree that Einstein would use his other famous quote here nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #291

Even if information is preserved (in a highly, HIGHLY theoretical sense... Silent3 Jan 2014 #294

None, even the researchers more directly involved, nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #295

It's an interesting idea, and I have nothing against speculation and investigation... Silent3 Jan 2014 #306

Well, it is in the data nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #308

I would agree that maybe "reincarantion" is not what we are talking about? kentuck Jan 2014 #298

How does looking at something "in a rational, scientific manner" equate to... Silent3 Jan 2014 #307

And you probably do not know, either? kentuck Jan 2014 #324

What it my post is your post supposed to be a comeback for? Silent3 Jan 2014 #326

anecdotal examples of unexplained phenomenon pipoman Jan 2014 #268

Unless we believe that everything has been discovered and is known... kentuck Jan 2014 #296

In other words - 'soul' exists. And off we go to "Intelligent Design". On quantum level, of course! idwiyo Jan 2014 #262

Would it be the first time pipoman Jan 2014 #264

Magical thinking was magical thinking 1000 years ago and remains so now. Nothing ever changes but idwiyo Jan 2014 #266

Fear of what we don't understand is human nature. . pipoman Jan 2014 #269

You mean like fear of dying manifesting itself as a belief in reincarnation? I am not human. :) idwiyo Jan 2014 #271

More like dismissing unexplained phenomenon pipoman Jan 2014 #273

You mean calling it "reincarnation"? Hmmm, maybe it's a "repressed memory syndrome"! idwiyo Jan 2014 #275

did you read the article? G_j Jan 2014 #279

One has to be seriously ... naive to actually read that article without laughing. idwiyo Jan 2014 #303

"Magical thinking" G_j Jan 2014 #270

Sorry, serious conversation stops right where 'reincarnation *science*' starts. idwiyo Jan 2014 #272

... pipoman Jan 2014 #274

That's perfect illustration for magical thinking! Thank you! idwiyo Jan 2014 #276

OK so mama has books on Hollywood in the house intaglio Jan 2014 #288

We aren't supposed to know about our past lives, which is most assuredly believe happens Hestia Jan 2014 #293

This crap is still around? Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #297

If man is so smart... kentuck Jan 2014 #299

Well given that scientists have yet to agree exactly what reality is dipsydoodle Jan 2014 #304

Thank you for sharing this article! GreenEyedLefty Jan 2014 #312

Fascinating. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2014 #320

Truly... kentuck Jan 2014 #325

Shades of Bridie Murphy... n/t TygrBright Jan 2014 #327