General Discussion

Phlem

(6,323 posts)

141. perfect.

Sun Jan 5, 2014, 10:45 PM

Jan 2014

Science is discovery.

As if right this very moment we know all there is to know about everything in the universe and then some.

I'd rather do more experiments waiting for new discoveries and new understandings and new truths (until they're proven false) rather than cling to what we know contemporarily as the all knowing truth that can't be re-understood.

-p

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Searching For The Science Behind Reincarnation [View all] G_j Jan 2014 OP

FFS! If I ever saw a load of crap... And OF COURSE it just had to have "quantum" reference... idwiyo Jan 2014 #1

"Quantum" is the magic word... gcomeau Jan 2014 #302

FFS... there is no "Science of Reincarnation" cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #2

FFS.........There is no woo! Th1onein Jan 2014 #105

If you don't like my reply, put me on ignore cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #129

Glad to oblige. Th1onein Jan 2014 #133

And you're welcome to mine :) eqfan592 Jan 2014 #172

Ditto. Th1onein Jan 2014 #250

What the hell? HappyMe Jan 2014 #3

Well... progressoid Jan 2014 #4

I have vague memories of a case that made headlines 60 or more years ago, where a Cal33 Jan 2014 #5

I recall discussion of the case when I was a child in the 1960s. John1956PA Jan 2014 #35

I remember the Bridey Murphy case. RebelOne Jan 2014 #54

I remember it too ... cvoogt Jan 2014 #83

Bridey Murphy frogmarch Jan 2014 #91

There was additional follow up on the Bridey Murphy case SheilaT Jan 2014 #153

Interesting article JanMichael Jan 2014 #6

totally to be expected G_j Jan 2014 #9

Yes, they are. And what's even more interesting to JanMichael Jan 2014 #10

so far G_j Jan 2014 #13

I am stunned! Stunned, I tell ya! JanMichael Jan 2014 #14

I did, I found it to be fascinating nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #22

Your statement is factually incorrect. eqfan592 Jan 2014 #174

I guess you are correct in that the person mentioned the word "quantum" G_j Jan 2014 #178

Oh? Don't you know, JanMichael? They know EVERYTHING that there is to know. Th1onein Jan 2014 #103

But the truth of the matter is that no one knows... kentuck Jan 2014 #117

You're right, but this woo crap goes way beyond skepticism. Th1onein Jan 2014 #136

Everybody knows what happens after death. TransitJohn Jan 2014 #165

I know what happens after death. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #181

agreed jan michael. if it isnt like dark matter or some such they will attack it. oh wait... roguevalley Jan 2014 #80

What's with this "creepy" thing? eqfan592 Jan 2014 #173

Fear? You might be frightened of death, I am not intaglio Jan 2014 #301

NPR is peddling pseudoscience? Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #7

How so? It is done at an actual university nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #16

It's not science. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #19

So he is not a psychiatrist nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #20

It's okay to be open minded, but not so much that your brain starts spilling out of your head. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #23

So you are cocksure you know what happens after death? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #24

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. G_j Jan 2014 #26

Albert strikes again nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #37

Love that quote! Thanks for sharing 1monster Jan 2014 #79

+1000 kentuck Jan 2014 #118

he definitely had a way with words G_j Jan 2014 #127

perfect. Phlem Jan 2014 #141

That is not an endorsement of magical thinking. Marr Jan 2014 #212

The researcher has been attempting to document a phenomenon that has been well known G_j Jan 2014 #214

I'm sure god is waiting on the other side of the big pearly gates. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #27

Maybe to all of those things B2G Jan 2014 #29

I have no beliefs. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #30

Sure you do B2G Jan 2014 #32

It's not a belief. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #34

I'm not trying to convince you of anything B2G Jan 2014 #41

Many people think the earth is 5,000 years old and it makes sense to them. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #47

That's provably wrong B2G Jan 2014 #53

If you are right we will, if my assumptions are correct we won't. defacto7 Jan 2014 #90

That's very true Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #171

Belief: Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something nt G_j Jan 2014 #42

Your definition is found wanting.... defacto7 Jan 2014 #94

Or maybe you become part of the great information pool nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #36

There's only one way to know what happens after death. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #39

Some folks said the same thing about string theory nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #40

I'm not sure what string theory has to do with this. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #44

I am talking about ultimate conservation of information nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #45

The article you posted is from a philosopher. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #46

And philosophers are working now with PhDs in physics nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #49

somehow I can't imagine G_j Jan 2014 #66

Or Max Plank, or Heisenberg nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #70

Actually, they do say the same thing about string theory. It hasn't been proven true yet... Moonwalk Jan 2014 #92

They used to laugh at string nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #93

So where is the Library of Alexandria today if information is not lost? immoderate Jan 2014 #112

You are seriously saying that the information was lost? nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #140

There is a "Theory of Conservation of Information?" immoderate Jan 2014 #151

Quantum mechanics is your friend nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #152

No. Quantum theory does not protect the Library of Alexandria. immoderate Jan 2014 #157

Well, the folks I know in the field nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #158

From your link... FiveGoodMen Jan 2014 #305

Yes, some of the scrolls and tablets at the Library of Alexandria were originals but a Hestia Jan 2014 #290

And when they return to explain their findings? n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #55

A a psychologist talking about quantum theory is like a dentist talking about climate science Scootaloo Jan 2014 #75

HEY! PCIntern Jan 2014 #235

I'm open to the idea of reincarnation. No one has yet been able to kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #63

Let's discuss reincarnation. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #71

Well, duh, that's because all the aliens from those star systems that got Rozlee Jan 2014 #96

Because those two things are not related. SheilaT Jan 2014 #155

expanding population explains why it's atypical. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #169

Because somebody is printing up souls. Captain Stern Jan 2014 #255

You are asking for proof of a negative? Thor_MN Jan 2014 #88

No. I know that negatives cannot be proven. kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #211

I was pretty sure that you knew that, it just the way you worded it. Thor_MN Jan 2014 #216

It's all fun and games making fun of something Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #170

I showed a SCIENCE video to some middle schoolers last school year. It was filled 1monster Jan 2014 #76

What you are highlighting nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #78

Odd. Why would you trust a psychiatrist over any other scientist to figure out if this is true? Moonwalk Jan 2014 #101

He is continuing research that was started fifty years ago nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #104

they wouldn't be. you're talking to nadin here, remember. dionysus Jan 2014 #156

Uncalled for mtnester Jan 2014 #260

The brain is not a quantum computer Shivering Jemmy Jan 2014 #102

I know what happens after death. GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #126

No, you don't actually KNOW, you have an untested hypothesis. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #131

Exactly! marew Jan 2014 #154

When you get a chance could you turn your tv about an inch to the right? snooper2 Jan 2014 #206

It was odd.... Red Mountain Jan 2014 #18

There has been a steady trend ozone_man Jan 2014 #68

We all wish this were true mainer Jan 2014 #8

I listened to the interview in teh morning nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #17

Epiphenomenalism. Utter rot. nt msanthrope Jan 2014 #11

From the article: Skidmore Jan 2014 #12

He's been doing this for a long time.......why the NPR interview now? Red Mountain Jan 2014 #65

Which is the crux of it all isn't it, Skidmore? Duality and gravity are the great dividers. Hestia Jan 2014 #292

Except my reality might not be the same as yours and my words here are just ScreamingMeemie Jan 2014 #321

There's a series called The Ghost Inside My Child ecstatic Jan 2014 #15

Just downloaded the book on Kindle B2G Jan 2014 #21

Another intriguing case. A little boy recalls life as a pilot on board WWII aircraft carrier JohnyCanuck Jan 2014 #25

Searching For The Science Behind Reincarnation? 99Forever Jan 2014 #28

Well, the thing is, you will never have what you call "actual science, documented and 1monster Jan 2014 #95

You are woefully ignorant. Th1onein Jan 2014 #106

Do you have a link to the Sagan claim? Logical Jan 2014 #162

see post #201 fishwax Jan 2014 #203

Thanks! nt Logical Jan 2014 #210

Reincarnation assumes a dualistic nature of the human being, which is bunk. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #175

Carl Sagan did not say that. He described that as part of the claim. fishwax Jan 2014 #201

He said more than that. Th1onein Jan 2014 #238

Well, he wrote that about not believing it in a book published the year before he died fishwax Jan 2014 #246

He said there seemed to be no other explanation. Th1onein Jan 2014 #248

The answer is obvious: He came into the present through a tear Dash87 Jan 2014 #31

No science. Done. alarimer Jan 2014 #33

I read some of the research by Ian Stevenson (name?) IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #38

Me too - it was so interesting I stayed up all night reading... polichick Jan 2014 #86

I recommend the book "The quantum enigma" lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #43

fascinating G_j Jan 2014 #50

Sorry lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #56

thanks! G_j Jan 2014 #58

very good G_j Jan 2014 #77

Maybe the brain is not understood yet. That does not mean it is.... Logical Jan 2014 #161

True enough. Stories like this are just pieces of evidence. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #168

"It's hard to understand..." Textbook definition of the argument from ignorance fallacy. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #179

No physicists claim to have a good understanding of quantum mechanics. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #204

"We do know that consciousness (or "observation") is intrinsically linked to quantum mechanics" Marr Jan 2014 #278

Amazing, I agree with you about something. :) justiceischeap Jan 2014 #280

Dogma is one of my least favorite things. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #281

Can you suggest any good reading material justiceischeap Jan 2014 #282

I found a link to the full book lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #285

Thank you! nt justiceischeap Jan 2014 #286

While I can imagine matter Shankapotomus Jan 2014 #48

This is a facinating topic 2naSalit Jan 2014 #51

more woo. phhhtttt!! Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #52

Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jan 2014 #57

The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF)... gadjitfreek Jan 2014 #59

No one will win it! Many nuts have tried! nt Logical Jan 2014 #163

Is it woo? Dare we ask if it woo? Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2014 #60

The Woo-Woo Credo seems appropriate here, too... SidDithers Jan 2014 #61

Why would you call something that is older than Jesus woo? A Simple Game Jan 2014 #97

And the Bible says the Earth was created in 6 days...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #98

And never says how long a day was. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #119

Oh fuck... SidDithers Jan 2014 #121

No I'm not. I'm not even religious, nor do I take the bible literally like you apparently do. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #122

No, you tried to introduce religious belief... SidDithers Jan 2014 #123

I'm sorry you don't know enough about religion to realize reincarnation is a large part of it. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #135

Suspect my youngest was a Nazi pilot in WWII Thirties Child Jan 2014 #62

Interesting! JanMichael Jan 2014 #82

So you assume all, or even a significant amount of skepticism is due to... Silent3 Jan 2014 #309

You won't be laughed at by me. 3catwoman3 Jan 2014 #84

Though difficult...I would love to believe in reincarnation. Auntie Bush Jan 2014 #99

How does it explain the unfairness of life? Control-Z Jan 2014 #230

Because we are here to learn Thirties Child Jan 2014 #252

Fascinating. redwitch Jan 2014 #64

Most interesting. Thanks. Aldo Leopold Jan 2014 #67

listened to the piece Gore1FL Jan 2014 #69

A lot of scientists would disagree with you. Th1onein Jan 2014 #107

Name 5. n/t Gore1FL Jan 2014 #109

I'm not doing your research for you. Th1onein Jan 2014 #110

I didn't ask you to I asked you to back a claim you made. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #120

You are claiming that what I am saying is untrue. Go and substantiate that claim. Th1onein Jan 2014 #128

You need to make an affirmative argument before I can respond. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #132

The affirmative argument was made with the original post. Th1onein Jan 2014 #137

I said it wasn't science Gore1FL Jan 2014 #139

Science is based on data? NO! ARE YOU SURE? Th1onein Jan 2014 #142

It is a big leap to say "Reincarnation" based on anecdotes. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #150

I'd take your word for it, were it not obvious you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about Th1onein Jan 2014 #261

I see. So anything we can't explain = reincarnation!!! Gore1FL Jan 2014 #277

Oh yeah! That's really what I said! Th1onein Jan 2014 #310

The "scientist" seems to think so. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #313

You are woefully ignorant about this topic, and more than likely, willfully misinformed. Th1onein Jan 2014 #314

Gore1FL, I'm going to go ahead and put you on Ignore. Th1onein Jan 2014 #319

Knock yourself out. n/t Gore1FL Jan 2014 #322

I don't read studies on non-existent things. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #317

Then anything that you don't know about yet, you will never know about. Th1onein Jan 2014 #318

Not true, but your putting me on ignore, so there really is no point in explaining Gore1FL Jan 2014 #323

So case studies are anecdotes? Th1onein Jan 2014 #315

I am educated enough to know there is no such thing as reincarnation. Gore1FL Jan 2014 #316

"you're joining everyone else on my Ignore list." JTFrog Jan 2014 #311

No, no, no, no. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #177

There are hundreds of cases of children seeming to recall former lives. Blue_In_AK Jan 2014 #72

Anecdotal third party claims don't equal science cpwm17 Jan 2014 #73

Do you know ANYTHING about Stevenson's work? ANYTHING? Th1onein Jan 2014 #108

I listened to the audio provided at link cpwm17 Jan 2014 #111

Like I said, Go forth, inform yourself. Th1onein Jan 2014 #113

Bookmarking - thanks! Lucinda Jan 2014 #74

The BBC did a documentary back in 1992 called "In Search of the Dead"- the entire series is online Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #81

oh no � whatever the evidence or lack of, shireen Jan 2014 #85

I was a shaman in a previous life and I DISTINCTLY remember... mike_c Jan 2014 #87

Are you sure that wasn't this life? Rozlee Jan 2014 #100

Absolute 100% unmitigated bullshit Orrex Jan 2014 #89

I think it is a very interesting topic. kentuck Jan 2014 #114

Well, one thing we know - the brain is a piss-poor filter for reality Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2014 #115

Shouldn't they have to prove that it's real first? Iggo Jan 2014 #116

Yup... SidDithers Jan 2014 #124

Even many well accepted scientific theories have no proof - at least not proof in any absolute sense Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #164

I appreciate that you posted this, especially the 2nd link. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #125

that is exactly why I found it interesting G_j Jan 2014 #134

As I said, I remember coming across Stevenson's work some years ago. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #138

I do not understand it either. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #253

Sad pipoman Jan 2014 #130

yep. Phlem Jan 2014 #143

Good point kentuck Jan 2014 #144

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." G_j Jan 2014 #145

Name some! nt Logical Jan 2014 #160

Yes, please, I'd love to see these phenomena that can't be explained by modern science. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #176

Did you read the OP..and the subsequent responses? pipoman Jan 2014 #185

Yes, I did. I still see no reason to believe reincarnation is substantive. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #187

OK then pipoman Jan 2014 #188

Starting with Quantum Mechanics and String theory? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #205

Start with this one. . pipoman Jan 2014 #184

????? Logical Jan 2014 #191

The OP? pipoman Jan 2014 #194

took about 30 seconds: G_j Jan 2014 #195

"Science doesn't yet have the means to provide a conclusive answer" NuclearDem Jan 2014 #196

exactly G_j Jan 2014 #197

But it doesn't mean we can't logically rule out certain supposed explanations. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #198

LOL, nice try, none of that is woo! Who calls it woo? nt Logical Jan 2014 #199

nobody G_j Jan 2014 #200

I don't know what happens after we die Marrah_G Jan 2014 #146

To me, that's what makes these case studies so fascinating. scarletwoman Jan 2014 #147

Thank you so much for saying those three little words that most human beings liberal_at_heart Jan 2014 #328

Thank You For Sharing cantbeserious Jan 2014 #148

knr - very interesting and very valuable Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #149

Oh for the love of... NuclearDem Jan 2014 #159

yet no explanation for these anomalies that have pipoman Jan 2014 #186

And I'm sure there are completely logical explanations to all of them. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #189

Glad you've got it all figured out. . pipoman Jan 2014 #192

No, I don't, and I never said I did. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #193

Apparently at odds with many actual scientists. .. pipoman Jan 2014 #219

Who are these scientists? Other than the two from the University of Virginia. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #220

opinions pipoman Jan 2014 #222

And opinions mean nothing if they're not backed by science. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #223

Who is doing that? pipoman Jan 2014 #224

That Sagan quote is taken out of context. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #227

so you have nothing pipoman Jan 2014 #229

I didn't say I'm right. I just said your arguments were flawed. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #232

If these anecdotes pipoman Jan 2014 #247

+1, this is embarrassing. Marr Jan 2014 #213

I survived the great woo war of 2014. nt awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #166

There have been many stories like this Le Taz Hot Jan 2014 #167

That is my take as well - TBF Jan 2014 #183

"Quantum physics indicates that our physical world may grow out of our consciousness," DetlefK Jan 2014 #180

From the forward of the book Quantum Enigma lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #208

If no consciousness witnesses the world, does it stop existing? DetlefK Jan 2014 #209

One of the most interesting books I've ever read is Many Lives, Many Masters. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #182

Lots of people are terrified at the thought of oblivion. Feral Child Jan 2014 #190

Just think about it you could be reincarnated as a Republican. gordianot Jan 2014 #202

Maybe researchers should investigate all the zombie accounts created at DU... SidDithers Jan 2014 #207

Carl Sagan's commentary on Ian Stevenson LongTomH Jan 2014 #215

Heh. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #217

Thanks for the quote. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #218

Well, it is getting crowded down here nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #221

I do NOT want reincarnation to be true. One life is plenty. However, pnwmom Jan 2014 #225

It does, let me direct you to a long post I did somewhere else nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #226

The quote has been edited. Bradical79 Jan 2014 #249

That quote was taken out of context. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #228

I wasn't trying to "prove reincarnation" LongTomH Jan 2014 #231

What the quote does show Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #233

It doesn't deserve the time of day. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #236

You do not know what you are talking about. Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #240

Don't worry, I'm pretty convinced you don't either NuclearDem Jan 2014 #243

Have you read Dr. Stevenson's research? Big Blue Marble Jan 2014 #244

While your personality does die nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #242

FFS!!!! Kali Jan 2014 #245

Completely irrelevant what Sagan said on the subject. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #234

good for you G_j Jan 2014 #239

You should have typed this after your quote justiceischeap Jan 2014 #283

here is an interesting or at least entertaining video Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #237

A 1992 BBC documentary that some here might find interesting Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #241

These seem to have been pulled from YT. nt justiceischeap Jan 2014 #284

I found a repost - In Search of the Dead - Episode 1 - Powers of the Mind (Documentary) Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #300

I wonder why poor people who never do shit and live lives of quiet misery Agnosticsherbet Jan 2014 #251

Always happy to read stories like these and may I suggest.... KaryninMiami Jan 2014 #254

My question to proponents or believers of this would be fujiyama Jan 2014 #256

Some of your questions are addressed in the literature by IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #287

Well the soul is generally not part of the conversation. nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #289

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. kentuck Jan 2014 #257

Conservation of energy is not a good argument for reincarnation or life after death Silent3 Jan 2014 #258

I don't think Einstein was talking about "conservation"? kentuck Jan 2014 #259

What Einstein is quoted as saying here is just a rephrasing of the first law... Silent3 Jan 2014 #263

To deny the existence of pipoman Jan 2014 #265

Even if there is reincarnation, trying to support it with the wrong science... Silent3 Jan 2014 #267

I will agree that Einstein would use his other famous quote here nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #291

Even if information is preserved (in a highly, HIGHLY theoretical sense... Silent3 Jan 2014 #294

None, even the researchers more directly involved, nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #295

It's an interesting idea, and I have nothing against speculation and investigation... Silent3 Jan 2014 #306

Well, it is in the data nadinbrzezinski Jan 2014 #308

I would agree that maybe "reincarantion" is not what we are talking about? kentuck Jan 2014 #298

How does looking at something "in a rational, scientific manner" equate to... Silent3 Jan 2014 #307

And you probably do not know, either? kentuck Jan 2014 #324

What it my post is your post supposed to be a comeback for? Silent3 Jan 2014 #326

anecdotal examples of unexplained phenomenon pipoman Jan 2014 #268

Unless we believe that everything has been discovered and is known... kentuck Jan 2014 #296

In other words - 'soul' exists. And off we go to "Intelligent Design". On quantum level, of course! idwiyo Jan 2014 #262

Would it be the first time pipoman Jan 2014 #264

Magical thinking was magical thinking 1000 years ago and remains so now. Nothing ever changes but idwiyo Jan 2014 #266

Fear of what we don't understand is human nature. . pipoman Jan 2014 #269

You mean like fear of dying manifesting itself as a belief in reincarnation? I am not human. :) idwiyo Jan 2014 #271

More like dismissing unexplained phenomenon pipoman Jan 2014 #273

You mean calling it "reincarnation"? Hmmm, maybe it's a "repressed memory syndrome"! idwiyo Jan 2014 #275

did you read the article? G_j Jan 2014 #279

One has to be seriously ... naive to actually read that article without laughing. idwiyo Jan 2014 #303

"Magical thinking" G_j Jan 2014 #270

Sorry, serious conversation stops right where 'reincarnation *science*' starts. idwiyo Jan 2014 #272

... pipoman Jan 2014 #274

That's perfect illustration for magical thinking! Thank you! idwiyo Jan 2014 #276

OK so mama has books on Hollywood in the house intaglio Jan 2014 #288

We aren't supposed to know about our past lives, which is most assuredly believe happens Hestia Jan 2014 #293

This crap is still around? Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #297

If man is so smart... kentuck Jan 2014 #299

Well given that scientists have yet to agree exactly what reality is dipsydoodle Jan 2014 #304

Thank you for sharing this article! GreenEyedLefty Jan 2014 #312

Fascinating. ScreamingMeemie Jan 2014 #320

Truly... kentuck Jan 2014 #325

Shades of Bridie Murphy... n/t TygrBright Jan 2014 #327