General Discussion

Major Nikon

(36,925 posts)

66. A few

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 03:06 AM

Jan 2014

You said "Vioxx alone probably killed between 40,000 and 60,000 people" and the person you are referencing doesn't even go that far. He says it could have been that high and it's really nothing more than a guess. Your own link contains another source who seriously doubts those numbers. If those numbers scare you, then you probably don't want to know about other NSAIDs, including ibuprofen which also kill people, but nobody really knows how many they kill because they weren't studied as extensively as Vioxx.

Comparing science based medicine with woo is ridiculous. How many lives does woo save or even improve? Answer, zero. Yet people who opt for woo instead of real science actually do die by the tens of thousands and probably hundreds of thousands. They just aren't dying here in the US, and why? Because we have real medicine. Take a trip to the 3rd world sometime where people have no choice other than woo. See how much better they are for it.

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Here's why *real* medicine is different than woo: [View all] MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 OP

I'm a believer and practitioner of many new age philosophies and health lifestyles. JaneyVee Jan 2014 #1

I agree PNW_Dem Jan 2014 #65

The WMD in Iraq was, in fact, a more serious lie/delusion/hoax than a crop circle cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #2

Bingo. Deep13 Jan 2014 #87

Are you awake? Do you read? Do you experiment? AikidoSoul Jan 2014 #140

verbal diarrhea Deep13 Jan 2014 #142

How can you make a blanket statement like that? Have you tested all alternative medicines? Maraya1969 Jan 2014 #155

One of what is snake oil? Deep13 Jan 2014 #156

And THAT'S not a defense of 'medical science'. Manny mentioned only ONE drug eg, that has killed sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #163

+10000000000 djean111 Jan 2014 #3

Paxil is nasty stuff MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #5

People have a nightmare trying to get off Paxil. But they don't tell you that until you've been on loudsue Jan 2014 #8

+10 RC Jan 2014 #13

Western medicine is the best in the world at fixing things that are broken truebluegreen Jan 2014 #108

I use both medicines. After a car 840high Jan 2014 #127

It may have saved my life. Deep13 Jan 2014 #88

+1 Paxil did wonders for me. treestar Jan 2014 #106

Doctors are heavily inflenced by pharmaceutical reps who lobby them tblue37 Jan 2014 #70

K&R! n/t whatchamacallit Jan 2014 #4

Yup Benton D Struckcheon Jan 2014 #6

May I ask the cause of the ear clogging? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #7

Vasculitis Benton D Struckcheon Jan 2014 #124

One big problem with herbal meds is that they are not FDA regulated, so you have no tblue37 Jan 2014 #75

The FDA? bvar22 Jan 2014 #148

K&R. I'll decide what works for me, thanks very much. appal_jack Jan 2014 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author rhett o rick Jan 2014 #10

There *does* seem to be some overlap between certain groups... MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #11

Yes, probably too much said. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #16

'Nuff said indeed. One group of us gets to make fun of the geek tragedy Jan 2014 #47

SMOOCH!!! IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #12

Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science jsr Jan 2014 #14

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #15

If we all hate modern medicine so much, why are we so happy to get insurance? progressoid Jan 2014 #17

Yep. Same people will tell you cigarettes don't kill geek tragedy Jan 2014 #24

Those same assholes convinced my mom to not try to stop smoking, she didn't live to see 64 years old Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #35

Not some one who lived, an incredibly large number of people have made it to their sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #164

This is a pristine example of woo at its dumbest geek tragedy Jan 2014 #166

I've read and reread the OP and still can't find one shred of evidence Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #60

Well, Manny said it progressoid Jan 2014 #78

The operative word is "could". I interpret that as not "should". Reread the OP. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #81

Picky, picky, picky. bvar22 Jan 2014 #144

Excellent Post. Live and Learn Jan 2014 #18

ha! ok....enjoy that worldview Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #19

Do you have a specific criticism? nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #20

So you're down with climate denialism and creationism? geek tragedy Jan 2014 #25

Either you're a bad reader, or I'm a crappy writer. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #27

You wrote quite effectively in disparaging medical geek tragedy Jan 2014 #29

Do you have any specific refutations of anything I wrote? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #36

You refuted yourself: geek tragedy Jan 2014 #42

The comment doesn't refute the OP MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #52

Your OP is stating that on balance woo is at least as good as medicine . geek tragedy Jan 2014 #57

I do not make that claim. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #59

Any rational person will deny that claim. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #61

A few Major Nikon Jan 2014 #66

I also found his 90% figure to be suspicious, its linked to a total of two op-eds, one in the... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #69

American Heart Association: only 11% of treatment recommendations back by good evidence MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #119

Of recommendations, you made it seem, in your OP, that 90% of ALL medicine is purely guesswork... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #133

What percent of homeopathy, herbal remedies, etc. have 11% or more "strong evidence" Cassidy Jan 2014 #162

yes. you link to articles showing profit motive and greed were warping/stopping scientific method Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #28

Boy, I must be a really shitty writer. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #37

You ignore the harm caused by alternative "medicine" while hypercritical of science and evidence... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #38

Link or slink. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #41

Your argument is that the net effect of woo on public health is better than that geek tragedy Jan 2014 #45

So I guess we won't be seeing your numbers then. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #53

7.5 years of life for the average person because of medicine. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #63

"Condoms don't stop AIDS" LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #79

things done for my son from his first trimester up through his last wellness check Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #40

High 90th percentile? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #118

The fact that big pharma is greedy and some doctors are incompetent NuclearDem Jan 2014 #21

Well, feel free to consult the local faith healer geek tragedy Jan 2014 #22

Do people like you hate modern medicine so much you will never use it? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #23

Some parts of modern medicine are helpful. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #26

reduced infant and child mortality due to a host of medical advances. Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #30

What percent has been attributed to woo? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #32

You forgot nutrition, which is much better today than in the past... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #33

How many children died from Hyland's tablets? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #39

That's your standard? Direct harm only? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #46

Forget homeopathy, we should just pray away illness. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #50

How many kids die of treatable illnesses (like diabetes!) because their tblue37 Jan 2014 #117

Did you actually *read* my OP? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #120

I don't see it as a nuanced cost benefit analysis, but rather a hit piece against science. n/t Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #131

And what bad things did I say about science? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #132

You misrepresent how modern medicine operates, you talk about the risks, downplay the... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #134

Settle down there, Beavis. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #135

So, parents should be allowed to pray for their kids rather than geek tragedy Jan 2014 #48

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #31

Great post. madfloridian Jan 2014 #34

Somehow, I suspect that if you were really, really sick, you'd go see a doctor. eggplant Jan 2014 #43

Great post as usual abq e streeter Jan 2014 #44

your avatar photo is really interesting considering the topic at hand Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #51

Oh, now you're just being difficult... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #67

And a great way to smoke out more abq e streeter Jan 2014 #84

Anyone that touts anything on this list is either insane, full of shit, or profoundly naive. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #49

Yep, that's pretty much the Great List of Bullshit. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #54

False equivalence lumping chiropracty with voodoo and astrology. Enjoy your stay. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #55

Heartbreaking stories of what those quacks will do to you: ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #56

One of those "quacks" fixed my whiplash without me having to have surgically fused vertebrae. nt Electric Monk Jan 2014 #58

No evidence to support chiropractic outside minor musculoskeletal problems. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #62

It's intellectually dishonest for you to lump it in with Psychic Surgery and Astral Projection. nt Electric Monk Jan 2014 #73

I did not compile that list on my own. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #77

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #82

There is a completely legit side to chiropractic. phleshdef Jan 2014 #138

I agree about Chiropractic stopwastingmymoney Jan 2014 #153

What do you mean by "stuff"? uppityperson Jan 2014 #167

Do you really need to ask a question with such a painfully obvious answer? phleshdef Jan 2014 #168

What is the painfully obvious answer please? Thank you for clarifying so I don't have to uppityperson Jan 2014 #170

Chiropractors, like anyone else, that overstep their scope of practice and do not know or believe uppityperson Jan 2014 #169

Similar with one of my closest friends. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #76

Right. The doctors at Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, and across the country pnwmom Jan 2014 #64

"Worth a try" ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #68

And what do you know that doctors at Harvard don't? Not much. pnwmom Jan 2014 #72

Results were less than impressive Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #92

A 50% reduction in pain with few side effects is considered pnwmom Jan 2014 #93

Sham acupuncture rated .37 compared to .55 for real acupuncture Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #94

Do you understand percents? pnwmom Jan 2014 #96

CNN says we are both wrong Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #97

Is there a reason you left this sentence out? pnwmom Jan 2014 #98

Yes because 50 vs 30 compared to 43 vs 30 is negligible Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #101

It is NOT a difference of only 7 percent. You really don't understand percents. pnwmom Jan 2014 #103

I strongly disagree Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #105

Wow, you are off by a mile. Here is an explanation from the authors of the paper Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #109

K&R Ellipsis Jan 2014 #71

ITT we bash the FDA. joshcryer Jan 2014 #74

For once I thought you were going to say something sensible intaglio Jan 2014 #80

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #83

Ever wonder how Shakespeare wrote all those plays, sonnets, and epyllia? ucrdem Jan 2014 #85

Herbal medicines do contain some active ingredients BUT intaglio Jan 2014 #90

I'd prefer the stuff Friar Lawrence hands out. ucrdem Jan 2014 #91

Great post! nt Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #89

Acupuncture isn't woo. pnwmom Jan 2014 #95

Accupuncture has been shown in dozens of studies to be no better than a panacea intaglio Jan 2014 #99

I assume you mean placebo. But even that isn't true. pnwmom Jan 2014 #100

Oh yes the "reported" pain studies intaglio Jan 2014 #113

Yep and here are the numbers from the study Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #104

very well articulated. nt La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #111

The site you link to... *admits* that it's not science-based MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #121

No, it uses court records and newspaper reports intaglio Jan 2014 #123

And this thread has 77 recs. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #145

Kind of funny that his "followers" have missed the fact that Manny does not madinmaryland Jan 2014 #150

This makes me wonder if DU should re-think how a posts gains recs. Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #159

Oh lovely, not the Deadly Doctor Gambit again Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #86

Thank you JustAnotherGen Jan 2014 #102

There was plenty of evidence that Vioxx had an advantage over ibuprofen - stomach ulcers muriel_volestrangler Jan 2014 #107

As I said in my OP, there was *no* evidence of increased safety while it was on the market MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #122

The lessening of GI complications for the class including Vioxx was known before the VIGOR study muriel_volestrangler Jan 2014 #125

Can you provide a link to info on the studies that demonstrated increased safety MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #129

hundreds of thousands died from woo, before the evolution of the scientific method La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #110

They still do. Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author eqfan592 Jan 2014 #114

I love threads like this. eqfan592 Jan 2014 #115

This is where the pea-brains .. sendero Jan 2014 #116

It is an "Art". IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #128

Modern medicine="Dilaudid Deficiency" riverwalker Jan 2014 #126

Dilauddid = Hydromorphone, is a pain killer and has been in use since 1924 intaglio Jan 2014 #147

It's a health care industry. Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 #130

Did you know that "Occasional Insomnnia" bvar22 Jan 2014 #149

Attacking the medical industry is a very touchy subject, because many people here are in it. reformist2 Jan 2014 #136

I look at it this way, if any of these asshats were 1/2 as competent as they try to imply, Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #137

if it talks like a Powellite, serves Powellite ends, uses Powellite means, erases history like a MisterP Jan 2014 #139

Antibiotics, Vaccines, Medicines taken from folk medicine Progressive dog Jan 2014 #141

Yes, lots of good and effective medicines out there Bradical79 Jan 2014 #160

THank You, Manny, bvar22 Jan 2014 #143

Colorado May Become The Latest State To Crack Down On Vaccine Denialism ProSense Jan 2014 #146

+1 Glassunion Jan 2014 #151

Steve Jobs & the Woo of not seeking proper treatment Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2014 #152

If I'm really feeling sick I go to the DR. If I have a miserable cold Autumn Jan 2014 #154

K&R rosesaylavee Jan 2014 #157

magical thinking in medicine used to kill a LOT more people than it does now Bradical79 Jan 2014 #158

You know, that 10% bit sounds good...until you really think about it.... Moonwalk Jan 2014 #161

Your own sources show what's wrong with woo. Jim Lane Jan 2014 #165

In my lifetime I personally know of one woo-tastrophe .. ananda Jan 2014 #171