General Discussion

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)

122. As I said in my OP, there was *no* evidence of increased safety while it was on the market

Reply to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #107)

Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:05 AM

Jan 2014

VIGOR was the first study to show reduced risk of GI complications, but the same study also showed a massive overall increase in death and injury, so it was pulled from the market.

So while it was being prescribed in volume, here's is what doctors knew:

- We have no reason to believe that Vioxx is better at relieving pain than ibuprofen. Nobody even suspects that it does.
- It's theorized that Vioxx will be safer on the GI tract vs. ibuprofen, but we don't know if this is true. No studies demonstrate it. It could even be worse.
- Vioxx is a new drug, so we don't know a lot about its safety.
- Death from GI tract complications of ibuprofen are pretty unusual and rarely fatal.
- Vioxx costs more than $3 per pill, vs less than a penny for ibuprofen.

Unless the above is wrong (and please let me know if it is), would *you* have prescribed Vioxx?

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Here's why *real* medicine is different than woo: [View all] MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 OP

I'm a believer and practitioner of many new age philosophies and health lifestyles. JaneyVee Jan 2014 #1

I agree PNW_Dem Jan 2014 #65

The WMD in Iraq was, in fact, a more serious lie/delusion/hoax than a crop circle cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #2

Bingo. Deep13 Jan 2014 #87

Are you awake? Do you read? Do you experiment? AikidoSoul Jan 2014 #140

verbal diarrhea Deep13 Jan 2014 #142

How can you make a blanket statement like that? Have you tested all alternative medicines? Maraya1969 Jan 2014 #155

One of what is snake oil? Deep13 Jan 2014 #156

And THAT'S not a defense of 'medical science'. Manny mentioned only ONE drug eg, that has killed sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #163

+10000000000 djean111 Jan 2014 #3

Paxil is nasty stuff MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #5

People have a nightmare trying to get off Paxil. But they don't tell you that until you've been on loudsue Jan 2014 #8

+10 RC Jan 2014 #13

Western medicine is the best in the world at fixing things that are broken truebluegreen Jan 2014 #108

I use both medicines. After a car 840high Jan 2014 #127

It may have saved my life. Deep13 Jan 2014 #88

+1 Paxil did wonders for me. treestar Jan 2014 #106

Doctors are heavily inflenced by pharmaceutical reps who lobby them tblue37 Jan 2014 #70

K&R! n/t whatchamacallit Jan 2014 #4

Yup Benton D Struckcheon Jan 2014 #6

May I ask the cause of the ear clogging? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #7

Vasculitis Benton D Struckcheon Jan 2014 #124

One big problem with herbal meds is that they are not FDA regulated, so you have no tblue37 Jan 2014 #75

The FDA? bvar22 Jan 2014 #148

K&R. I'll decide what works for me, thanks very much. appal_jack Jan 2014 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author rhett o rick Jan 2014 #10

There *does* seem to be some overlap between certain groups... MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #11

Yes, probably too much said. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #16

'Nuff said indeed. One group of us gets to make fun of the geek tragedy Jan 2014 #47

SMOOCH!!! IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #12

Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science jsr Jan 2014 #14

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #15

If we all hate modern medicine so much, why are we so happy to get insurance? progressoid Jan 2014 #17

Yep. Same people will tell you cigarettes don't kill geek tragedy Jan 2014 #24

Those same assholes convinced my mom to not try to stop smoking, she didn't live to see 64 years old Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #35

Not some one who lived, an incredibly large number of people have made it to their sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #164

This is a pristine example of woo at its dumbest geek tragedy Jan 2014 #166

I've read and reread the OP and still can't find one shred of evidence Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #60

Well, Manny said it progressoid Jan 2014 #78

The operative word is "could". I interpret that as not "should". Reread the OP. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #81

Picky, picky, picky. bvar22 Jan 2014 #144

Excellent Post. Live and Learn Jan 2014 #18

ha! ok....enjoy that worldview Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #19

Do you have a specific criticism? nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #20

So you're down with climate denialism and creationism? geek tragedy Jan 2014 #25

Either you're a bad reader, or I'm a crappy writer. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #27

You wrote quite effectively in disparaging medical geek tragedy Jan 2014 #29

Do you have any specific refutations of anything I wrote? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #36

You refuted yourself: geek tragedy Jan 2014 #42

The comment doesn't refute the OP MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #52

Your OP is stating that on balance woo is at least as good as medicine . geek tragedy Jan 2014 #57

I do not make that claim. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #59

Any rational person will deny that claim. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #61

A few Major Nikon Jan 2014 #66

I also found his 90% figure to be suspicious, its linked to a total of two op-eds, one in the... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #69

American Heart Association: only 11% of treatment recommendations back by good evidence MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #119

Of recommendations, you made it seem, in your OP, that 90% of ALL medicine is purely guesswork... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #133

What percent of homeopathy, herbal remedies, etc. have 11% or more "strong evidence" Cassidy Jan 2014 #162

yes. you link to articles showing profit motive and greed were warping/stopping scientific method Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #28

Boy, I must be a really shitty writer. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #37

You ignore the harm caused by alternative "medicine" while hypercritical of science and evidence... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #38

Link or slink. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #41

Your argument is that the net effect of woo on public health is better than that geek tragedy Jan 2014 #45

So I guess we won't be seeing your numbers then. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #53

7.5 years of life for the average person because of medicine. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #63

"Condoms don't stop AIDS" LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #79

things done for my son from his first trimester up through his last wellness check Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #40

High 90th percentile? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #118

The fact that big pharma is greedy and some doctors are incompetent NuclearDem Jan 2014 #21

Well, feel free to consult the local faith healer geek tragedy Jan 2014 #22

Do people like you hate modern medicine so much you will never use it? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #23

Some parts of modern medicine are helpful. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #26

reduced infant and child mortality due to a host of medical advances. Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #30

What percent has been attributed to woo? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #32

You forgot nutrition, which is much better today than in the past... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #33

How many children died from Hyland's tablets? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #39

That's your standard? Direct harm only? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #46

Forget homeopathy, we should just pray away illness. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #50

How many kids die of treatable illnesses (like diabetes!) because their tblue37 Jan 2014 #117

Did you actually *read* my OP? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #120

I don't see it as a nuanced cost benefit analysis, but rather a hit piece against science. n/t Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #131

And what bad things did I say about science? MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #132

You misrepresent how modern medicine operates, you talk about the risks, downplay the... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #134

Settle down there, Beavis. MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #135

So, parents should be allowed to pray for their kids rather than geek tragedy Jan 2014 #48

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #31

Great post. madfloridian Jan 2014 #34

Somehow, I suspect that if you were really, really sick, you'd go see a doctor. eggplant Jan 2014 #43

Great post as usual abq e streeter Jan 2014 #44

your avatar photo is really interesting considering the topic at hand Pretzel_Warrior Jan 2014 #51

Oh, now you're just being difficult... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #67

And a great way to smoke out more abq e streeter Jan 2014 #84

Anyone that touts anything on this list is either insane, full of shit, or profoundly naive. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #49

Yep, that's pretty much the Great List of Bullshit. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #54

False equivalence lumping chiropracty with voodoo and astrology. Enjoy your stay. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #55

Heartbreaking stories of what those quacks will do to you: ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #56

One of those "quacks" fixed my whiplash without me having to have surgically fused vertebrae. nt Electric Monk Jan 2014 #58

No evidence to support chiropractic outside minor musculoskeletal problems. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #62

It's intellectually dishonest for you to lump it in with Psychic Surgery and Astral Projection. nt Electric Monk Jan 2014 #73

I did not compile that list on my own. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #77

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #82

There is a completely legit side to chiropractic. phleshdef Jan 2014 #138

I agree about Chiropractic stopwastingmymoney Jan 2014 #153

What do you mean by "stuff"? uppityperson Jan 2014 #167

Do you really need to ask a question with such a painfully obvious answer? phleshdef Jan 2014 #168

What is the painfully obvious answer please? Thank you for clarifying so I don't have to uppityperson Jan 2014 #170

Chiropractors, like anyone else, that overstep their scope of practice and do not know or believe uppityperson Jan 2014 #169

Similar with one of my closest friends. Luminous Animal Jan 2014 #76

Right. The doctors at Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, and across the country pnwmom Jan 2014 #64

"Worth a try" ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #68

And what do you know that doctors at Harvard don't? Not much. pnwmom Jan 2014 #72

Results were less than impressive Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #92

A 50% reduction in pain with few side effects is considered pnwmom Jan 2014 #93

Sham acupuncture rated .37 compared to .55 for real acupuncture Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #94

Do you understand percents? pnwmom Jan 2014 #96

CNN says we are both wrong Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #97

Is there a reason you left this sentence out? pnwmom Jan 2014 #98

Yes because 50 vs 30 compared to 43 vs 30 is negligible Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #101

It is NOT a difference of only 7 percent. You really don't understand percents. pnwmom Jan 2014 #103

I strongly disagree Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #105

Wow, you are off by a mile. Here is an explanation from the authors of the paper Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #109

K&R Ellipsis Jan 2014 #71

ITT we bash the FDA. joshcryer Jan 2014 #74

For once I thought you were going to say something sensible intaglio Jan 2014 #80

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #83

Ever wonder how Shakespeare wrote all those plays, sonnets, and epyllia? ucrdem Jan 2014 #85

Herbal medicines do contain some active ingredients BUT intaglio Jan 2014 #90

I'd prefer the stuff Friar Lawrence hands out. ucrdem Jan 2014 #91

Great post! nt Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #89

Acupuncture isn't woo. pnwmom Jan 2014 #95

Accupuncture has been shown in dozens of studies to be no better than a panacea intaglio Jan 2014 #99

I assume you mean placebo. But even that isn't true. pnwmom Jan 2014 #100

Oh yes the "reported" pain studies intaglio Jan 2014 #113

Yep and here are the numbers from the study Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #104

very well articulated. nt La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #111

The site you link to... *admits* that it's not science-based MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #121

No, it uses court records and newspaper reports intaglio Jan 2014 #123

And this thread has 77 recs. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #145

Kind of funny that his "followers" have missed the fact that Manny does not madinmaryland Jan 2014 #150

This makes me wonder if DU should re-think how a posts gains recs. Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #159

Oh lovely, not the Deadly Doctor Gambit again Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #86

Thank you JustAnotherGen Jan 2014 #102

There was plenty of evidence that Vioxx had an advantage over ibuprofen - stomach ulcers muriel_volestrangler Jan 2014 #107

As I said in my OP, there was *no* evidence of increased safety while it was on the market MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #122

The lessening of GI complications for the class including Vioxx was known before the VIGOR study muriel_volestrangler Jan 2014 #125

Can you provide a link to info on the studies that demonstrated increased safety MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #129

hundreds of thousands died from woo, before the evolution of the scientific method La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #110

They still do. Quixote1818 Jan 2014 #112

This message was self-deleted by its author eqfan592 Jan 2014 #114

I love threads like this. eqfan592 Jan 2014 #115

This is where the pea-brains .. sendero Jan 2014 #116

It is an "Art". IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #128

Modern medicine="Dilaudid Deficiency" riverwalker Jan 2014 #126

Dilauddid = Hydromorphone, is a pain killer and has been in use since 1924 intaglio Jan 2014 #147

It's a health care industry. Jesus Malverde Jan 2014 #130

Did you know that "Occasional Insomnnia" bvar22 Jan 2014 #149

Attacking the medical industry is a very touchy subject, because many people here are in it. reformist2 Jan 2014 #136

I look at it this way, if any of these asshats were 1/2 as competent as they try to imply, Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #137

if it talks like a Powellite, serves Powellite ends, uses Powellite means, erases history like a MisterP Jan 2014 #139

Antibiotics, Vaccines, Medicines taken from folk medicine Progressive dog Jan 2014 #141

Yes, lots of good and effective medicines out there Bradical79 Jan 2014 #160

THank You, Manny, bvar22 Jan 2014 #143

Colorado May Become The Latest State To Crack Down On Vaccine Denialism ProSense Jan 2014 #146

+1 Glassunion Jan 2014 #151

Steve Jobs & the Woo of not seeking proper treatment Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2014 #152

If I'm really feeling sick I go to the DR. If I have a miserable cold Autumn Jan 2014 #154

K&R rosesaylavee Jan 2014 #157

magical thinking in medicine used to kill a LOT more people than it does now Bradical79 Jan 2014 #158

You know, that 10% bit sounds good...until you really think about it.... Moonwalk Jan 2014 #161

Your own sources show what's wrong with woo. Jim Lane Jan 2014 #165

In my lifetime I personally know of one woo-tastrophe .. ananda Jan 2014 #171