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snot

(11,928 posts)
17. Here's the problem as I see it.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 12:28 PM
Jan 2014

This is a VERY rough, broad-brush picture, but . . .

There's a sort of natural tendency toward something like feudalism -- people will put up with a certain amount of tyranny so long as there's hope that the tyrant will take care of their basic needs . . . or so long as they seem to have more to lose by opposing the tyrant than by putting up with him. It's the old psychological bargain: I'll obey you if you'll take care of me. Because life is challenging, and it's hard for any of us to manage everything without help. Only, too often, when it comes to the "taking care" part, the tyrant fails to uphold his end of the bargain.

Also, good leaders are very hard to find. You need someone who actually understands a fair amount about a variety of policy issues, who doesn't have too many personal, emotional issues that get in the way, who has good managerial and organizational skills, who has some degree of altruistic concern for others, who has the interpersonal skills to charm a crowd to at least some degree as well as to negotiate with or outfox adversaries, etc. etc.

And not only do you need good leaders, but surrounding circumstances have to be conducive in certain ways. If your infrastructure has been demolished, your economy is in ruins, you're under constant attack by fanatics or one stripe or another, your population is woefully under- or mis-educated, the media are owned by your opposition, etc., etc., even the Founding Fathers might have struggled.

Achieving any degree of not utterly-tyrannical stability, let alone good government, is huge.

It's usually difficult to help another person or country evolve into some kind of more constructive mode of operation. Sometimes it's easier or harder than others; but you can't just chop off the head and slap a new one on that's more to your liking, as we did in Iraq, and expect it to "take." Very roughly speaking, the person or country to be "improved" must meet you at least half-way. Change must come at least in part from within; and what's needed is a clear vision, considerable will, and good internal leadership and/or organization. The Egyptian revolution is highly instructive. The protesters were intelligent, informed, motivated, etc.; but the revolution is struggling, apparently bec. there was no pre-existing organization or leadership sufficiently developed to govern even temporarily, other than the Muslim Brotherhood, which lacked the wisdom and/or political savvy to hold onto power, and the military, which is essentially tyrannical.

In an ideal world, we should ALL be leaders. We should all, at the minimum, be leaders of our own lives; but in fact, few of us manage even that. We're driven by impulses we rarely understand to do foolish or self-destructive things that have irreversible consequences, then spend much time and energy simply trying to cope with whatever we've brought on ourselves.

I do NOT by any means consider our situation as hopeless as this may sound. I just think most people either vastly underestimate the challenges or choose not to care about them, so long as their own selfish, short-term interests are benefitted.

Right now, you could compare Iraq to somebody else's problem child. We have a right to protect ourselves from it, and possibly a humanitarian duty to try to help it to some degree; but we don't have any authority over it and limited influence with it. It is mostly somebody else's problem, and unless we're willing to invest hugely into it over decades -- in ways that would result in lost opportunity costs elsewhere because of the cost in treasure and attention -- we're not going to be able to have much effect on it, let alone actually "fix" it.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

We should have never interfered. Laelth Jan 2014 #1
We probably shoulda never invented that country in the first place n/t arcane1 Jan 2014 #2
Who came up with that idea anyways? DetlefK Jan 2014 #4
UK and France developed (with the consent of Russia) the Sykes-Picot Accord during the closing days LanternWaste Jan 2014 #11
Gee, I can't remember (but surely Lindsey Graham and John McCain were strongly opposed to it)! 11 Bravo Jan 2014 #25
That war was beyond wrong get the red out Jan 2014 #3
everyone could see an invasion would unleash hell politicman Jan 2014 #7
During reagan/bush1 years Saddam was our friend madokie Jan 2014 #5
Imagine a 100000 size font of FUCKING DUH! L0oniX Jan 2014 #6
how's about we donate dick cheney to the cause...we could throw in liz as a bonus spanone Jan 2014 #8
That works for me! City Lights Jan 2014 #50
Intervention is wrong, and so is advocating dictatorships. nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #9
As a Desert Storm vet I agree, a ruthless bastard is needed. Katashi_itto Jan 2014 #10
who is "we"? cali Jan 2014 #12
Best question. truebluegreen Jan 2014 #31
Liberals used to criticize US foreign policy for supporting brutal dictators who could pampango Jan 2014 #13
Funny gaspee Jan 2014 #14
Very true. Of course everyone claiming to be liberal while spreading RW talking points FSogol Jan 2014 #15
Then what is to be done? Invade Iraq again? AngryAmish Jan 2014 #16
Of course not. Not promoting brutal dictators is not the same as promoting invasion. pampango Jan 2014 #24
I don't think that their idea of democracy is the same as our idea of democracy AngryAmish Jan 2014 #27
"People living in repressive regimes mostly want elections because they want someone on their side pampango Jan 2014 #45
"Liberals"/"Some liberals"? It's an OP by one person. CJCRANE Jan 2014 #19
Exactly, it is one man's opinion. I never claimed to speak for all liberals quinnox Jan 2014 #20
so who is the "we" you referred to? do tell. cali Jan 2014 #33
Here's the problem as I see it. snot Jan 2014 #17
Good post quinnox Jan 2014 #21
Reagan and Rumsfeld were right? ProSense Jan 2014 #18
What you're trying to do is compare a mind set of a westernized culture firsttimer Jan 2014 #22
No, I'm not, ProSense Jan 2014 #23
Then what are you doing? firsttimer Jan 2014 #26
Is ProSense Jan 2014 #28
What happened is you had no point or a solution to begin with... firsttimer Jan 2014 #36
Hey, ProSense Jan 2014 #39
Afghanistan and Iraq are VERY different countries from a cultural perspective cali Jan 2014 #29
Oh come on, Cali, don't you know that all brown skinned people live in tribal societies? geek tragedy Jan 2014 #32
there's something truly appalling about the op? advocating brutal dictatorship cali Jan 2014 #34
jury voted 2-4 to keep, btw geek tragedy Jan 2014 #35
. firsttimer Jan 2014 #37
Link ProSense Jan 2014 #40
No, what's different is the terrain firsttimer Jan 2014 #38
"Iraqis are more educated but the mind set of a tribe is there." ProSense Jan 2014 #41
No , I'm asking you for what you think the solution should be.. firsttimer Jan 2014 #42
No, ProSense Jan 2014 #43
I agree but they haven't been able to achieve that. firsttimer Jan 2014 #46
IRaq is probably more like the United States than Afghanistan JI7 Jan 2014 #48
Your op is an ugly illustration of a mindset that has no business on a liberal website. cali Jan 2014 #30
+1 demmiblue Jan 2014 #44
Do you care to offer CFLDem Jan 2014 #47
He hated religion and kept it out of his government. A somewhat smart dictator. Rex Jan 2014 #49
It does not matter what "WE" need in Iraq the people of IRAQ have to work it out. Vincardog Jan 2014 #51
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