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spin

(17,493 posts)
54. Perhaps you were not aware of this but the reason the military does not use hollow point bullets ...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:07 PM
Jan 2014

is not only the Hague Convention of 1899 but also the theory that it's better to wound an enemy than kill him as it will take one or more of your opponents to remove him from the field to a field hospital and that would also remove them from the fight. It can also be argued that a non expanding round could pass right through one enemy and still wound another.

OUr military snipers use "expanding point" ammo in certain cases.

Military Open-tip Ammunition

***snip***

This practice began to change subsequent to a 23 September 1985 opinion issued by the Judge Advocate General2, authored3 by W. Hays Parks4, Chief of the JAG's International Law Branch, for the signature of Major General Hugh R. Overholt, which stated:

"…expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."

On 12 October 1990, another Memorandum of Law from Parks at the request of the Commander of the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) and coordinated with the Department of State, Army General Counsel, as well as the Offices of the Judge Advocates General of the Navy and Air Force, concluded that:

"The purpose of the 7.62mm "open-tip" MatchKing bullet is to provide maximum accuracy at very long range. … Bullet fragmentation is not a design characteristic, however, nor a purpose for use of the MatchKing by United States Army snipers. Wounds caused by MatchKing ammunition are similar to those caused by a fully jacketed military ball bullet, which is legal under the law of war, when compared at the same ranges and under the same conditions. (The Sierra #2200 BTHP) not only meets, but exceeds, the law of war obligations of the United States for use in combat."
http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html


I don't find the fact that you have a carry permit and rarely carry all that unusual. When I first got a concealed weapons permit twenty years ago, I tried to carry a full sized 1911 Colt .45 atuo pistol. That proved to be a real pain in the ass and it normally stayed home when I was out and about.

At the time, I lived in a somewhat dangerous neighborhood in the Tampa Bay Area. There was a drive by shooting two houses down from mine and it wasn't unusual to see police with drawn weapons chase people down my street or within walking distance of my home. I was working the graveyard shift and there was a rash of bump and rob incidents on the streets near my home where a car bumps you at a stop light and when you get out you find yourself facing armed attackers. Several employees at stores and restaurants near my home were shot during robberies and killed even after they handed over the cash in their registers. (Obviously I could have moved but I owned my home and didn't want to take on another mortgage.)

"Shall issue" concealed carry was sweeping the nation at that time. Gun manufacturers responded to the market and started to manufacture lighter and more compact handguns that were primarily designed for concealed carry. Smith and Wesson decided to upgrade their .38 caliber snub nosed revolvers to be able to handle the more powerful .38+P round. I checked the new models out and chose a Model 642 Airweight revolver which was primarily designed for pocket carry. I finally had found an extremely light and compact handgun that I could quickly grab and slide it and its holster into my pants pocket on my way out the door. I started to carry on a regular basis.

Still a .38+P round fired from a snub nosed revolver is near the lower levels of what's acceptable for self defense. I don't necessarily want to kill an attacker who intends to put me in a hospital for an extended stay or six feet under but simply to have a fair chance of stopping his attack. In order to be able to do so, I wish to have the best ammo available in my weapon. Round nosed bullets which do not expand are not well suited for this task and also have the potential to over penetrate and pass through an attackers body and injure someone behind. Therefore I prefer to load my weapon with a quality hollow point round that is designed to be effective in a snub nosed revolver.

Since I practice "situational awareness" and have moved to a more peaceful town in Florida after retiring, I seriously doubt and pray that I will never have to use my legally concealed weapon in self defense. I enjoy target shooting handguns but the last thing in the world I ever hope to have to do is to shoot another person.

Another question:

While you state that you rarely carry a concealed weapon, what type of ammo do you load in it when you do?






Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Uh.... CherokeeDem Jan 2014 #1
"But wtf is semi-lethal??" jberryhill Jan 2014 #9
Good enough explanation for me.... CherokeeDem Jan 2014 #16
See it in action... Skinner Jan 2014 #2
Are the bullets made of anti-matter? clffrdjk Jan 2014 #3
No. The spin produced by the rifling MineralMan Jan 2014 #8
Grapeshot. That was the term I was searching for. enlightenment Jan 2014 #14
Chainshot, too. MineralMan Jan 2014 #15
Definitely. enlightenment Jan 2014 #17
I have no idea. Not much, I imagine. Design of projectiles isn't MineralMan Jan 2014 #37
Limited energy is lost clffrdjk Jan 2014 #18
'Or do you want to ban everything?' MineralMan Jan 2014 #21
No the counter to your post was the clffrdjk Jan 2014 #22
Please proceed... MineralMan Jan 2014 #23
Not really, a bullet MUST penetrate sufficiently to kill. This is a gimmick. nt Adrahil Jan 2014 #24
Agreed and that is my point. These seem like bean bag rounds for pistols. clffrdjk Jan 2014 #27
I concur. nt Adrahil Jan 2014 #28
Frankly, at handgun ranges, my choice would be MineralMan Jan 2014 #38
I think you responded to the wrong post. clffrdjk Jan 2014 #41
No, actually I didn't. Your topic was MineralMan Jan 2014 #43
Right clffrdjk Jan 2014 #47
Please proceed. MineralMan Jan 2014 #53
Wait, you deride hollow point, but go with #00 buck? nine 33 caliber bullets at 1,200fps?!? X_Digger Jan 2014 #67
Out of curiosity, do you believe that hollow point bullets should be banned? (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #33
Which hollow point bullets? MineralMan Jan 2014 #36
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #51
Perhaps you were not aware of this but the reason the military does not use hollow point bullets ... spin Jan 2014 #54
Federal SWC target rounds. That's what I have on hand. MineralMan Jan 2014 #55
That's fine. No problem. Have a good day and stay warm. (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #58
Neat! Glassunion Jan 2014 #4
Careful, now. Our Gun Enthusiasts will accuse you of class-based elitism. (nt) Paladin Jan 2014 #5
Sounds like chain-shot to me. arbusto_baboso Jan 2014 #6
What is the purpose of this? ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #7
Considering how survivable gun shots are hack89 Jan 2014 #11
Ummm... no. Adrahil Jan 2014 #25
There is this program that they can attach to guns that makes them never miss. Xyzse Jan 2014 #10
Hand grenades. A better way to make a point. n/t malthaussen Jan 2014 #12
In military combat, yes. For civilian self defense against a criminal not so much. (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #59
That's one way to do it. Glassunion Jan 2014 #13
At close range and in skilled hands a sword is far more lethal then a handgun. (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #35
Oh, the gun nutters will be Le Taz Hot Jan 2014 #19
Better there than on this thread...... (nt) Paladin Jan 2014 #26
No thanks... sarisataka Jan 2014 #20
+1000 (n/t) spin Jan 2014 #60
In my younger years RadleyJ Jan 2014 #29
They do the same thing with rubber balls jmowreader Jan 2014 #42
An improved bolo bullet? Kaleva Jan 2014 #30
I think it funny that guns make you automatically think of sex hack89 Jan 2014 #31
If all you have is a hammer......(nt) blueridge3210 Jan 2014 #32
Zimmerman types are ecstatic. Hoyt Jan 2014 #34
I doubt any of the pieces would have the mass needed to penetrate... Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #39
Why this won't work jmowreader Jan 2014 #40
It's not a serious round, anyhow. It's a design exercise. MineralMan Jan 2014 #44
A useless bullet H. Cromwell Jan 2014 #46
Seems to me the spin would almost stop as soon as the pieces spread. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #65
Other multiple projectile rounds are available and have been for years. ... spin Jan 2014 #45
just maybe onethatcares Jan 2014 #48
Pffft. Rocket launchers are the way to go. Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #49
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #50
Sad ... RKP5637 Jan 2014 #52
If the guvment can't infringe on my right to keep and bare arms doc03 Jan 2014 #56
I never known a gun owner who had any desire to own a nuke. ... spin Jan 2014 #63
Well why can't I at least have a functioning doc03 Jan 2014 #64
The weapons you describe are used by military forces in combat. ... spin Jan 2014 #66
Smaller bullets will disable, not kill an enemy resulting in two solders helping him egold2604 Jan 2014 #57
It appears the anti-gunners are getting hot and bothered the most. aikoaiko Jan 2014 #61
No, the gunners are off fondling their weapons in anticipation. Hoyt Jan 2014 #68
Well, at least more efficient means of murder aren't "woo". Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2014 #62
Yeah... It's All Science, For The Advancement Of The Species... WillyT Jan 2014 #70
Oh yeah. lonestarnot Jan 2014 #69
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