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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)

127. It illustrates that "woo" is a nonsense argument.

Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:24 PM

Jan 2014

As you can see from the thread, lots of people are frantically denouncing a pretty run-of-the-mill article about a JAMA report that simply confirms meditation can help with depression -- better than meds in some cases.

There are all kinds of contortions being made and straw men built in order to object to a perfectly ordinary piece of knowledge -- that meditation works. Someone actually claimed it was "dangerous," on the basis everyone with depression will now stop going to the doctor.

It's a really weird kind of rigid thinking, and the tone is of people whose religious beliefs have been threatened. Apparently it is frightening that anything not completely pedestrian and mainstream ever be taken seriously -- a view that no real scientist would even take.

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Meditation 'works just as well as anti-depressants' [View all] JaneyVee Jan 2014 OP

Good to hear, elleng Jan 2014 #1

Only a minority had been diagnosed with a mental illness kcr Jan 2014 #2

Unfortunately, I found that to be the case Bradical79 Jan 2014 #5

So? M.D.s prescribe SSRI's to patients with milder levels of depression pnwmom Jan 2014 #23

What do you mean, so? kcr Jan 2014 #63

The title is misleading. pnwmom Jan 2014 #69

Okay. But my reaction is to the misleading title kcr Jan 2014 #70

For the vast majority of people taking the meds, it IS as helpful. pnwmom Jan 2014 #72

Perspective doesn't change misleading headlines kcr Jan 2014 #76

A 1995 Mother Jones article may throw some light on all this. Stevepol Jan 2014 #61

Not really. kcr Jan 2014 #66

Not one study: he looked at all 47 studies used for all the clinical tests on the 6 drugs Stevepol Jan 2014 #103

Nice cherry picking HERVEPA Jan 2014 #3

I agree with the sentiment, but the drugs also cause some people to kill themselves. JaneyVee Jan 2014 #4

How many people who chose to meditate instead of going to a doctor killed themselves? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #92

It's very relevant cherry-picking because research only supports pnwmom Jan 2014 #25

That 'chemical imbalance' language is a term of art. Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #39

^^^^^^This! hedgehog Jan 2014 #68

Meditation can be part of mindfullness therapy BainsBane Jan 2014 #6

I was a close up witness to the dawn of the AIDS crisis and many do Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #41

I used that example BainsBane Jan 2014 #134

I'd definitely start there before submitting myself to pharmaceuticals. Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #7

ARGH! LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #8

+ infinity and beyond REP Jan 2014 #13

Great post...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #14

^^^this^^^ progressoid Jan 2014 #16

+1000 LAGC Jan 2014 #19

They had me on Zoloft for a couple of years LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #21

Yeah, LAGC Jan 2014 #24

This research is specifically NOT about people with full-blown depression. pnwmom Jan 2014 #27

Fair enough. LAGC Jan 2014 #28

You're right -- the title was misleading. It was much deeper in the article pnwmom Jan 2014 #29

+gazillion Dawgs Jan 2014 #46

Thanks for posting that. MineralMan Jan 2014 #49

Argh. That's wrong. I think you mischaracterize the OP. DirkGently Jan 2014 #85

You first link seems to be about people who are being weaned off of anti-depressives, so they... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #99

Where does the OP mention clinical depression? DirkGently Jan 2014 #104

Question, how are we supposed to know the distinction when the reporting... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #106

That's a pretty convoluted objection. DirkGently Jan 2014 #109

"The article and OP suggest meditation is effective in treating depression." Yeah, a lie. Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #111

What is it you think the study DOES say about meditation? DirkGently Jan 2014 #113

It says that meditation may be effective for some types of depression... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #123

So you'd just make the headline longer. DirkGently Jan 2014 #126

Longer, and more accurate, but its the Daily Mail, so we have low expectations... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #129

But the DM article reflects the same facts as the others, so ...? DirkGently Jan 2014 #133

To be honest, I find all of them to be hyperbolic, but again, the studies themselves... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #135

So again, you just want a longer headline. DirkGently Jan 2014 #139

Yes I would, to your last question, I prefer accuracy over inaccuracy. Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #140

Well I would hope people suffering severely would DirkGently Jan 2014 #141

Its because many people are used to being told exactly that, that it is... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #143

Kuyken's study found meditation effective in helping prevent relapse AFTER treatment LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #121

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #94

Don't insert superstition into medical issues. n/t Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #95

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #96

It also takes time and effort bhikkhu Jan 2014 #9

so does klonopin and exercise. dionysus Jan 2014 #10

Word to the wise: don't get your science news from the Daily Mail. LeftyMom Jan 2014 #11

They spend more time researching Kim Kardashian than actual news. progressoid Jan 2014 #15

Somewhere in the UK somebody poor or brown or both did something crazy, and the Daily Heil is ON IT. LeftyMom Jan 2014 #17

Plenty of other sources have the same story. DirkGently Jan 2014 #88

Biofeedback can work well for stress and pain, too. n/t freshwest Jan 2014 #12

That's working well for my son. Meditation probably would, too, pnwmom Jan 2014 #31

A few years ago my neuropsychologist had me working on a new one. Also some of the freshwest Jan 2014 #57

My husband get an occasional leg cramp. pnwmom Jan 2014 #59

Have him aim for pinching hard the place the calf muscle attaches. It hurts for a second and I'm freshwest Jan 2014 #60

Thanks a lot. I think I'll mention this to him now pnwmom Jan 2014 #74

I have a favorite accupressure point, too. pnwmom Jan 2014 #81

Again, it takes time and concentration like meditation does Warpy Jan 2014 #84

Meditation works for some, but not for all... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #18

Meditation is great. davidthegnome Jan 2014 #20

Actually, the research says that SSRI's don't work better than placebo pnwmom Jan 2014 #34

I don't recall having said otherwise. davidthegnome Jan 2014 #54

I agree that the title is way off base. pnwmom Jan 2014 #58

The OP is not about PTSD. Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #43

Depression is a symptom of PTSD. davidthegnome Jan 2014 #56

The problem is that people are different. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #22

It doesn't work for me Are_grits_groceries Jan 2014 #26

You're describing severe episodes of depression, and those are the ones pnwmom Jan 2014 #30

Thank you for adding yourself to the long list of Are_grits_groceries Jan 2014 #32

I didn't insist that meditation would work for you, did I? pnwmom Jan 2014 #33

I didn't say the study was worthless. Are_grits_groceries Jan 2014 #36

I completely agree that people have their own particular reactions pnwmom Jan 2014 #38

Breath control is an aspect and technique of meditation, perhaps the Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #44

I agree. Are_grits_groceries Jan 2014 #48

If it works for you, wonderful get the red out Jan 2014 #35

Cherry-picking, and sensationalist headlines - nothing more to be expected from Daily Mail. idwiyo Jan 2014 #37

If that works for you, great. HappyMe Jan 2014 #40

Why the fuck is everyone on DU all of a sudden playing doctor? Ilsa Jan 2014 #42

When I was suffering from depression, I tried meditation and yoga. Brickbat Jan 2014 #45

Yes it does, but only if you have the motivation to meditate intaglio Jan 2014 #47

The Daily Mail has a very poor reputation when it comes MineralMan Jan 2014 #50

How's the AMA? DirkGently Jan 2014 #86

The issue is that the reporting is poor, it seems to indicate that it should work for all people... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #87

That's a point. But that's not the issue being raised. DirkGently Jan 2014 #89

Actually the majority, starting with the second post, pointed out how the Daily Fail... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #90

My comment was regarding the source of this post. MineralMan Jan 2014 #97

Great. For a second, it sounded like you wanted to dismiss the article. DirkGently Jan 2014 #110

I made no comment on the content. Only the source. MineralMan Jan 2014 #116

Glad I could help! DirkGently Jan 2014 #118

Never tried it for pipi_k Jan 2014 #51

Woo woo, indeed. mr blur Jan 2014 #52

I've done meditation for 40 years and I don't agree with this. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #53

Have bipolar disorder? Vashta Nerada Jan 2014 #55

Yeah, but big pharma doesn't get profits from meditation... polichick Jan 2014 #62

This is a perfect example of how woo is dangerous. Marr Jan 2014 #64

It's a better example of why "woo" is a silly term. DirkGently Jan 2014 #77

You're a fantastic demonstration of the danger of woo like this article. jeff47 Jan 2014 #91

Fascinating. I didn't say any of those things. DirkGently Jan 2014 #102

Actually, you did. jeff47 Jan 2014 #117

Yes, you're wrong. The studies found meditation effective DirkGently Jan 2014 #125

However, they do say "can" and " may", not "will", at least in those clips. uppityperson Jan 2014 #130

You seem to, yet again, not understand the difference between mild and moderate depression... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #132

The articles make no claims about types of depression. DirkGently Jan 2014 #136

Your first link has it as the TITLE of the article, do you not read? Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #137

Again, moderate depression and clinical depression are different things jeff47 Jan 2014 #144

Thank you very much Arcanetrance Jan 2014 #105

Don't ever blame yourself for what happened. LAGC Jan 2014 #142

Telling the clinically depressed that meditation is just as good as medication is absolutely woo. Marr Jan 2014 #98

The study shows meditation is not "loopy folklore." DirkGently Jan 2014 #107

I don't have depression but I have another medical issue gollygee Jan 2014 #65

Maybe for some.... Adrahil Jan 2014 #67

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #71

I love to walk. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #73

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #78

I agree. I feel one with nature when I walk along the harbor here. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #80

Yes, when someone is clinically depressed it's so easy to get up and go for a stroll. jeff47 Jan 2014 #93

'These patients did not typically have full-blown anxiety or depression.' cbayer Jan 2014 #75

Woo woo! Snark snark! Close-minded automatic dismissal! villager Jan 2014 #79

Seriously, what ARE they talking about? DirkGently Jan 2014 #83

Meditation changed my life 1000words Jan 2014 #82

I really don't like articles like this. NCTraveler Jan 2014 #100

When non-traditional approaches are evaluated using appropriate methodologies Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #101

True, but the reporting here is inaccurate... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #108

the reporting may very well be inaccurate but the reactions here Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #114

Weirdly irrational, eh? DirkGently Jan 2014 #115

Some people seem to be allergic on principle to anything not a knife Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #120

At this point, I'm skeptical of anyone calling things "woo." DirkGently Jan 2014 #124

Where is the evidence of these reactions? Or do you enjoy erecting strawmen? n/t Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #122

"CAN" not "does". eom uppityperson Jan 2014 #112

What does this have to do with Woo?????? Sgent Jan 2014 #119

It illustrates that "woo" is a nonsense argument. DirkGently Jan 2014 #127

Woo! Auntie Bush Jan 2014 #128

This message was self-deleted by its author ohheckyeah Jan 2014 #131

You don't understand what "woo" is... MellowDem Jan 2014 #138