General Discussion

snooper2

(30,151 posts)

67. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 01:58 PM

Jan 2014

At Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:47 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Do you do nothing else with your life than troll DU, sniping
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024298093#post34

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Over the top incivility. This is the type of unprovoked rudeness that makes DU suck.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Nov 25, 2013, 06:39 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: There is no need to be mean to people, especially with everything the Greeks are going through right now.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It seemed like a valid question, are you just on DU because your life sucks?
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: I don't like the edit history, if you have to edit your post you must have something to hide.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I want to see more of these two going at it. This could be a classic sub-thread! Vote to leave it alone we can't have one person banned from the thread.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I like mustard
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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323 replies

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Highlight:

Will men ever start seeing woman as people first, sex objects last? [View all] leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 OP

Do you ever see men treating women as people first? el_bryanto Jan 2014 #1

It depends, but with groups like the Mormons, women are just baby makers, virtual slaves, and sex vanbean Jan 2014 #271

I am a Mormon as it turns out; el_bryanto Jan 2014 #282

I already do. Iggo Jan 2014 #2

We've got the same problem snooper2 Jan 2014 #3

me too hfojvt Jan 2014 #23

But where is his cat? Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #60

What I love about this is... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #100

Good observation. A woman I know is something of an exception... Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #119

but why are so many women afflicted with such poor body images..? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #123

Bombardment LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #232

yes alot of deprogramming is right... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #233

I don't know. There is power in self-confidence, and for Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #256

Confidence is sexy Katashi_itto Jan 2014 #187

Yeah it is. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #257

One exception here. demosincebirth Jan 2014 #202

Men FEEL and THINK in relatively the same way women do on this one... Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #278

No Chris...men are NOT judged by appearance the same way women are... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #295

Happens to me al the time Katashi_itto Jan 2014 #186

I thought so, as I had men who were just friends treestar Jan 2014 #4

The generalization in this OP is offensive to personhood. Coyotl Jan 2014 #5

Don't bother it makes no difference what is said upaloopa Jan 2014 #41

+100 RC Jan 2014 #127

Yeah I remember that song. There used to be some good upaloopa Jan 2014 #145

+1 uponit7771 Jan 2014 #137

"self centered bullies pretending to be honest educators of the rest of us" Marr Jan 2014 #220

+1 Vinnie From Indy Jan 2014 #291

You got that right. 99Forever Jan 2014 #309

that subject line is really out there. If something like it in reverse were posted, Doctor_J Jan 2014 #176

Not that there is anything wrong with flinging poo, given of course Coyotl Jan 2014 #179

Will men ever stop seeing each other as competitors and potential enemies? Smarmie Doofus Jan 2014 #6

Why should women change the way they dress because of what MEN think? n/t hughee99 Jan 2014 #7

Islam demands it. n/t Drew2510 Jan 2014 #10

And Mormons! snooper2 Jan 2014 #37

Mormons?? Drew2510 Jan 2014 #78

Report Them! snooper2 Jan 2014 #89

Yes as you point out Drew2510 Jan 2014 #221

They do AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #44

Some change the way they dress to cinnabonbon Jan 2014 #51

If one is suggesting that women change the way the dress because of what goes on in MEN's minds hughee99 Jan 2014 #98

If you live in a society cinnabonbon Jan 2014 #121

There are women, it seems to me, who exploit their own sexual appeal closeupready Jan 2014 #8

So, in your view, sexual harassment and objectification is women's fault. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #17

Do you do nothing else with your life than troll DU, sniping closeupready Jan 2014 #34

When some people can't defend what they write, geek tragedy Jan 2014 #39

We're trying to have a friendly discussion here closeupready Jan 2014 #48

LMAO. Throw nasty personal insults and then play innocent. Shameless. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #52

This AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #62

Yawn. Restating someone's opinion is not an insult. Look up geek tragedy Jan 2014 #77

There you go again AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #84

No, my issue is with assholish behavior that is learned and then geek tragedy Jan 2014 #87

Your issue is with hormonal interplay between sexes AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #99

LMAO. "hormonal interplay" what is your view on sexual geek tragedy Jan 2014 #102

Sexual harassment has no place in the workplace AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #135

Chimpanzees and killer whales and monkeys geek tragedy Jan 2014 #167

Try to keep up with science and social science BainsBane Jan 2014 #133

Sexual attraction is biological AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #144

Biology doesn't MAKE people do stupid things BainsBane Jan 2014 #250

Yes it does AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #261

So you've now decided procreation is stupid? BainsBane Jan 2014 #267

No AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #269

Where did I say that? BainsBane Jan 2014 #270

I have never said anything you imply AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #272

Spot fucking on. Have you read this? redqueen Jan 2014 #162

Thats a whole lotta animosity in that "research" site study for me so I can go read it please Drew Richards Jan 2014 #239

When you change the meaning in so doing, it's called a Straw Man. That's what you did. stevenleser Jan 2014 #150

Yes, a Straw Man, not an insult. And I will infer from your geek tragedy Jan 2014 #154

As soon as you started with the straw man, imputing nasty things they did not say stevenleser Jan 2014 #158

While your personal loyalty to that person is admirable, it also geek tragedy Jan 2014 #163

You are really good at imputing things to people they never said or intended. stevenleser Jan 2014 #165

Unless you have anything else to add geek tragedy Jan 2014 #168

+ a fucking gazillion n/t Scout Jan 2014 #189

+1,000,000,000 nt redqueen Jan 2014 #213

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service snooper2 Jan 2014 #67

Wait, two jury results on the same post? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #80

WTF is going on! snooper2 Jan 2014 #91

technical glitches never happen! nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #94

I love how one of the deciding votes Hayabusa Jan 2014 #172

Results Sissyk Jan 2014 #61

Well said Katashi_itto Jan 2014 #146

want some cheese to go with that whine? nt Capt. Obvious Jan 2014 #185

I started that saying, in 1993. Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #274

I invented the question mark Capt. Obvious Jan 2014 #280

Heh Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #304

Feel good answer: Yes LittleBlue Jan 2014 #9

I like that the ad that shows for me on your post has two big boobs on it. cbdo2007 Jan 2014 #11

While some things have gotten better (you don't see girly calendars Ron Green Jan 2014 #12

I doubt it. The ones who think with their big head instead of their little head are a minority. kestrel91316 Jan 2014 #13

I don't think you could make a broadside attack like that against women here and get away with it. Comrade Grumpy Jan 2014 #223

Indeed DavidDvorkin Jan 2014 #247

because men are never displayed as sex objects? demwing Jan 2014 #14

Those are just gross. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #19

The third ad reminds me of something from Zoolander demwing Jan 2014 #207

Ha---those are for other men, if truth be known. WinkyDink Jan 2014 #32

Lol. Men get sexualized... demwing Jan 2014 #208

The point is, men are seen as people first, sexual beings second. athena Jan 2014 #46

Men divide other men into different types of groups demwing Jan 2014 #214

Back when I was single they would comment on my buns B Calm Jan 2014 #55

Confession! Sissyk Jan 2014 #70

Men judge other men by appearances as well demwing Jan 2014 #217

I thought you were going to confess that you scanned the QR code covering that last dude's dingus. Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #273

lol! Sissyk Jan 2014 #285

Honestly... pipi_k Jan 2014 #15

Probably why women like gay men so much. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #20

I've told pipi_k Jan 2014 #92

There is a logistical problem here... Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #108

To answer your question Orrex Jan 2014 #175

Is analysis really worthwhile, is the theater really dead? Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #258

Why would you think that the OP was exempting gay men from the broad brush treatment? nt lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #245

Biology does not make men superficial assholes. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #28

So I went back pipi_k Jan 2014 #104

No, you're taking assholish behavior and attributing it to hormones. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #111

WTF? -_o BarackTheVote Jan 2014 #226

since 1973, it's had the connotation of 13-20 years old. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #227

lol AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #264

Hormones make men superficial AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #105

how do you explain people who aren't superficial? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #116

I would explain them by saying... AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #129

so only superficial people dress well or care about their personal appearance? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #153

No, all types of people exist AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #157

Without taking the time to take a side in this debate... Shandris Jan 2014 #170

this kind of dismisses the idea that people do stuff geek tragedy Jan 2014 #171

No, I don't think it dismisses that idea at all. Shandris Jan 2014 #177

social interactions are not evidence of superficiality, I would say geek tragedy Jan 2014 #182

"Low T" ? quaker bill Jan 2014 #275

Is that a joke? Can't tell. nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #283

Hmmm I wonder if pipi likes gregorian chants Drew Richards Jan 2014 #238

Can't people stop reacting based on the way other people look? haele Jan 2014 #16

Good men don't do this. The media is particularly foul in this regard, though. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #18

No, actually... pipi_k Jan 2014 #110

No, sorry, that's superficial, emotionally underdeveloped men. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #113

If you don't already know whoever it is The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #141

Life is not a singles bar. nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #169

It's not a platonic relationship either The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #191

Well, no. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #194

Did you do so with your spouse when you first met them? The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #203

she came up to me and started talking. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #209

I tip my cap to ya The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #212

better to be lucky than good, as the saying goes nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #218

meh -- there are plenty of men (good and bad, I suspect) whose first thought is not "hot or not" fishwax Jan 2014 #122

Sorry, dude. You're a bad guy too ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2014 #234

sorry, I view women as colleagues, etc geek tragedy Jan 2014 #235

are you saying women should wear burkas? leftyohiolib Jan 2014 #21

No. Nun's outfits will do just fine. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #27

I don't think it's so bad as that. athena Jan 2014 #40

Some would consider this "blaming the victim". nt hughee99 Jan 2014 #45

It may turn out to be a bad libodem Jan 2014 #174

Some women just don't like men AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #35

... and some men just don't like women... Scout Jan 2014 #199

True, but... AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #240

Both sexes look at each other as sex objects first; straight or gay. democratisphere Jan 2014 #22

Probably not in general. Xyzse Jan 2014 #24

That's not really a fair generalization. rrneck Jan 2014 #25

There go those damn hormones again! AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #26

SMH Mr Dixon Jan 2014 #29

The West wants its women naked; the East wants them totally covered. POWER. WinkyDink Jan 2014 #30

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ redqueen Jan 2014 #143

I understand how you feel. athena Jan 2014 #31

This might come as a surprise to you.... AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #33

Yes, because what women want most of all BainsBane Jan 2014 #47

You could actually try reading AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #65

What facts? BainsBane Jan 2014 #71

These facts: AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #74

No shit Sherlock BainsBane Jan 2014 #82

I pointed out a few AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #93

Know what else is a fact BainsBane Jan 2014 #103

Right, because we all know that this OP AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #107

My agenda? BainsBane Jan 2014 #118

Yes AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #130

I wonder if the issue BainsBane Jan 2014 #125

If you can imagine it AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #132

Revolves around what? BainsBane Jan 2014 #140

Revolves around AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #148

Wow... chervilant Jan 2014 #279

I wonder how far the argument goes? BainsBane Jan 2014 #308

Your appeal to positivism is fascinating BainsBane Jan 2014 #306

you mean many women enjoy sucking up to men? leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #322

Is the poster less entitled to speak for women than the OP is for men? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #237

My original point really was pretty simple. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #297

I understand, but that won't stop some from excusing predatory behavior BainsBane Jan 2014 #305

You know, the older I get the more I realize I don't have a clue leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #323

If they dress to accentuate their looks treestar Jan 2014 #188

Women tend to dress up AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #241

Oh really treestar Jan 2014 #254

No AgingAmerican Jan 2014 #260

Here's what I don't understand: chervilant Jan 2014 #286

I am completely beyond giving a fuck MadrasT Jan 2014 #36

Right around the same time women stop caring what random people LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #38

except that 'random people' include a woman's boss, her coworkers, geek tragedy Jan 2014 #43

I said "women" not "woman". n/t LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #50

you don't think all of the above happen to more than one woman? nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #53

I said women as a collective need to stop being terrified of what men might think LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #66

how is that supposed to work? women exist as individuals, not geek tragedy Jan 2014 #156

*snort* BWAHAHAHA LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #180

the point is that it's easy to not care in abstract, but the reality geek tragedy Jan 2014 #184

I live in the same reality, sir LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #206

my wife was chased by a psycho with a brick after she told him off. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #210

I've survived one attempted kidnapping LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #216

more power to you, you should be able to dress in any manner you want and for any reason loli phabay Jan 2014 #225

You need to lay off reality TV B2G Jan 2014 #42

Probably about the same time women quite being attracted to ... MicaelS Jan 2014 #49

It depends on the individual as "men" is too broadbrushing. Will societal standards and expectations uppityperson Jan 2014 #54

A woman posts her opinion on a topic she considers important, athena Jan 2014 #56

Yep. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #63

and a radfem/Dworkin-baiting post mentioning PIV. nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #101

Doesn't something similar happen to pretty much any topic in GD? Orrex Jan 2014 #73

Yup. More and more GD appears to stand for Gratuitous Douchebaggery. 11 Bravo Jan 2014 #120

GD isn't a friendly place for anyone. It's the Roman Coliseum part of DU Kaleva Jan 2014 #76

Maybe it should be re-named "Unfriendly Discussion" athena Jan 2014 #79

Lol! Or how about "General Lynching"? Kaleva Jan 2014 #96

I like that! athena Jan 2014 #106

If she doesn't want to be accused of over-generalizing then... redgreenandblue Jan 2014 #81

Because the OP posted her own personal observation. athena Jan 2014 #97

The problem is that it is generally not helpful to make sweeping generalizations. redgreenandblue Jan 2014 #136

And that observation includes an over-generalization. jeff47 Jan 2014 #142

And some have affirmed the point BainsBane Jan 2014 #109

"as someone said here not too long ago"~ About two and a half hours ago, to be exact. LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #134

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #115

Right.....and the exact same thing happens whenever a man posts something. cbdo2007 Jan 2014 #138

thanks, very true! n/t Scout Jan 2014 #195

The dismissive responses are from people who are in a position to know the answer to the question. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #244

Thank you. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #316

I agree with you almost completely. athena Jan 2014 #320

When it comes to dressing: leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #321

Would it have killed you to insert the word "some" before "men"? Nye Bevan Jan 2014 #57

Male - Hormones Shot - Tubes Calcified - People Are People cantbeserious Jan 2014 #58

No Egnever Jan 2014 #59

Not a good excuse. athena Jan 2014 #64

it isnt an excuse Egnever Jan 2014 #312

Which men? MineralMan Jan 2014 #68

Some, yes and more as time goes by intaglio Jan 2014 #69

It is indeed unfortunate that people are held to artificial standards set by others Orrex Jan 2014 #72

Men who are attracted to women are first attracted to them The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #75

How does one separate being sexually appealing from being viewed as a sex object? Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #83

All these conversations seem to ignore that women also look at men as sex objects. I've personally ChisolmTrailDem Jan 2014 #85

"Will women ever start seeing men as people first, providers last?" SMC22307 Jan 2014 #86

it would be more efficient FatBuddy Jan 2014 #88

+1000!!1!!11!! RC Jan 2014 #159

I think that men are wired to see women sexually liberal N proud Jan 2014 #90

... the same way that women are wired to see men sexually. athena Jan 2014 #117

I understand this part. Xyzse Jan 2014 #126

So the white knight thing is ok to do? The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #149

This message was self-deleted by its author athena Jan 2014 #160

How then does she even have the job that her expertise got her? The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #173

This message was self-deleted by its author athena Jan 2014 #181

I'm sorry. athena Jan 2014 #190

If a woman got a job based on her expertise The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #200

Why does it have to be one or the other? RC Jan 2014 #183

It doesn't have to be The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #204

And when the reverse happens? RC Jan 2014 #219

I've never been a boss, but I'm sure that's it's own situation The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #288

This message was self-deleted by its author athena Jan 2014 #293

Anyone who can't see and feel real beauty and quality in a person isn't worth a rat's ass as a Zorra Jan 2014 #95

I feel women do the same thing Beringia Jan 2014 #112

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #114

Please review #22, 24, 75, 83, 108 and notice: no interraction. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #147

Ah, the hasty generalization fallacy TheSarcastinator Jan 2014 #124

Will some people ever stop seeing "men" as a single object DLnyc Jan 2014 #128

Just because we're staring... Blue_Adept Jan 2014 #131

Will people ever start seeing men as people, too... Orsino Jan 2014 #139

This should get an award for sweeping generalizations. Katashi_itto Jan 2014 #151

I gotta say cinnabonbon Jan 2014 #152

My wife always says, "Why are you always looking at other women." Hubert Flottz Jan 2014 #155

Interesting fact: The "women have an extra rib" myth came from the Adam and Eve story. Dash87 Jan 2014 #196

I'll take a cryptic and lame excuse, over flying saucers, Hubert Flottz Jan 2014 #224

Have you stopped beating your wife? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #161

I see my wife as many things... Whiskeytide Jan 2014 #164

As an Oklahoman and a major Sooners fan... NaturalHigh Jan 2014 #229

Thanks. I was at the game... Whiskeytide Jan 2014 #287

I think this goes both ways with young girls not seeing Cleita Jan 2014 #166

The fact that ''not all men do this' type responses so vastly outnumber the 'far too many men do' redqueen Jan 2014 #178

Well, to be fair, the title of the post Vinnie From Indy Jan 2014 #294

The lack of understanding of generalizations justiceischeap Jan 2014 #192

I have to admit that we don't make it that easy for them sometimes. We sex ourselves up too much Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2014 #193

I would take strong exception with the idea that Michelle Obama, Hillary geek tragedy Jan 2014 #197

This may seem odd, but I find Mrs. Obama very attractive, BobUp Jan 2014 #198

quite the contrary, extremely normal nt geek tragedy Jan 2014 #201

Look at you, being all superficial The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #211

IMHO BobUp Jan 2014 #228

It works the other way too The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #222

That's interesting. You're right. I do agree that sometimes I wish were described as SMART first! Liberal_Stalwart71 Jan 2014 #243

Which can only happen when someone knows you The2ndWheel Jan 2014 #289

Sexism will always be a problem in this country chungking34 Jan 2014 #205

It's not all men MissMillie Jan 2014 #215

Answer to title: No, and yes. nt Demo_Chris Jan 2014 #230

I honestly don't see very men at all that look as sex objects first. polly7 Jan 2014 #231

Shocking! RiffRandell Jan 2014 #259

Will women ever start asking men this question rather than speculating among themselves? lumberjack_jeff Jan 2014 #236

Laughing. crim son Jan 2014 #242

This is really a silly post. n-t Logical Jan 2014 #246

Post removed Post removed Jan 2014 #248

I can control a man, how much he respecst me by "acting like a lady"? uppityperson Jan 2014 #249

Ever? I think so, assuming we survive long enough. Will we see it? I don't think so. Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #251

We keep blaming pipi_k Jan 2014 #290

You're confusing common cultural programming with biology. Or perhaps you are confusing Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #314

never..... madrchsod Jan 2014 #252

Men can't help it in my case. KentuckyWoman Jan 2014 #253

We could go around in burqas and it would still be the same Warpy Jan 2014 #255

Some men don't seem to be catching on. FedUpWithIt All Jan 2014 #262

Will the human animal ever, ever, EVER be able to walk and chew gum at the same time? Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #263

Do you see our society radically changing the way they advertise and sell products? Rex Jan 2014 #265

Chicken or egg? FedUpWithIt All Jan 2014 #266

this might be breaking news to you, but not all guys are superficial douchebags.nt dionysus Jan 2014 #268

People are people quaker bill Jan 2014 #276

.... politicman Jan 2014 #277

Creepy guys (and non-creepy guys) at the bar Bonobo Jan 2014 #281

Many already do. LWolf Jan 2014 #284

One of the most ridiculous, in your face bits of flame bait I have seen in a while on DU Vinnie From Indy Jan 2014 #292

Honestly, I didn't put this out as "flame bait?" leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #298

The problem is, you didn't say "Will Roger Ailes ever..." brooklynite Jan 2014 #307

Honestly, I am afraid that most men notice the sex angle first. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #313

As I was thinking about this pipi_k Jan 2014 #296

It's ignorant, unevolved behavior. redqueen Jan 2014 #299

when it becomes normal for women to be on equal footing at work and be bosses? Hopefully. bettyellen Jan 2014 #300

no ladywnch Jan 2014 #301

Let me guess, you just meant "some" men. RedCappedBandit Jan 2014 #302

That's not a very kind response. athena Jan 2014 #319

Will white people ever start seeing blacks as people first, black last? Glassunion Jan 2014 #303

I'm not sure. athena Jan 2014 #310

So what? loose wheel Jan 2014 #311

Looks are meaningless. The only thing I care about is how well she can cook. sir pball Jan 2014 #315

Gotta say that I like men who can cook. leftyladyfrommo Jan 2014 #317

So do I! sir pball Jan 2014 #318