General Discussion

Sancho

(9,207 posts)

198. ...you aren't getting the point...

Wed Jan 8, 2014, 03:03 PM

Jan 2014

you condemn an effect that some people observe and a few (but not all) attempts at experimental treatment show a small or possible effect. Of course, you say, "it's only water" and call it "woo" because there is no clear scientific evidence that it's a useful treatment.

In the 1890's, medical doctors (in a famous publication at Dartmouth) said that smoking caused cancer.
In exactly the same way, some people at the time said "it's only smoke" . Likewise, most scientific efforts failed to find a clear connection to cancer so many lay people ridiculed those who warned that smoking might be the cause of cancer.

-because the effect didn't happen to everyone
-because the effect was hard to detect
-because the chemistry was not understood

It took many years and study to find that smoking caused cancer.

You can't just discount something as "woo" because you say "it's only _____" and you can't discount any observed phenomena just because science doesn't understand it (yet).

You have no way to know that "it's only water" and you don't have any way to predict what future science will discover. Therefore, you have no right or reason to call something "woo".

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Highlight:

Maybe I'm Misunderstanding Woo... But... Wasn't There A Time When... [View all] WillyT Jan 2014 OP

A. C. Clarke summed it up nicely.... mike_c Jan 2014 #1

Except woo =/= magic. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #8

Many people here think acupuncture is woo pnwmom Jan 2014 #78

If true... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #80

I agree that acupuncture is not woo, even though many DUers pnwmom Jan 2014 #82

By any realistic definition... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #89

I'm sure you're familiar with this poster. This is a typical offering. pnwmom Jan 2014 #104

statistical significance studies are woo Vattel Jan 2014 #219

^== This. IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #42

lol! Matariki Jan 2014 #43

No, really. It's aliens. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #65

Your talking about conventional wisdom before it's excepted . orpupilofnature57 Jan 2014 #2

Accepted, not excepted. darkangel218 Jan 2014 #4

Either works... defacto7 Jan 2014 #71

Thanks orpupilofnature57 Jan 2014 #162

Actually, they're opposites. jazzimov Jan 2014 #207

Correct! defacto7 Jan 2014 #211

Your your from yore is you're. TeeYiYi Jan 2014 #169

You are absolutely correct, WillyT. darkangel218 Jan 2014 #3

Yep... Now That They Have The Knowledge Produced By The Imaginations And Works Of Others... WillyT Jan 2014 #105

It's really weird, isn't it? bananas Jan 2014 #231

Well... Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #5

You have figured out that it doesnt work??? darkangel218 Jan 2014 #7

And this is why it is woo Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #10

Yes, there is zero possibility whatchamacallit Jan 2014 #168

You do realize homeopathy is water right? Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #171

If by natural compounds you mean water. TransitJohn Jan 2014 #175

homoeopathy: water has selective memory. It doesn't remember piss or shit but remembers arnica. idwiyo Jan 2014 #111

It has worked for me and others while Science doesn't have a very 'happy' history either. Remember sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #18

No... homeopathy did not work for you Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #23

And this is why your argument loses credibility. IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #44

Sorry... It is a simple fact that homeopathy does not cure anything Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #48

Sigh. Dude, did it EVER occur to you that there MIGHT IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #59

Homeopathy is water, nothing more. Take a quick look at what it is before defending it Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #61

I just had a delicious glass of homeopathy ElboRuum Jan 2014 #92

The last few days I had some GI distress MattBaggins Jan 2014 #177

I have premature twins. They were born at 32 weeks. IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #203

This has nothing to do with whether someone is lying or not... Silent3 Jan 2014 #199

Disclaimer: I know nothing about homeopathy. IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #200

Actually, that's a rational response. Marr Jan 2014 #138

An anecdote isn't data. eom TransitJohn Jan 2014 #176

Tell that to the reporters. IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #185

Oh please Ohio Joe Tumbulu Jan 2014 #46

Do you know what homeopathy is? Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #51

My water does MyNameGoesHere Jan 2014 #58

Oh please Joe, yes I do Tumbulu Jan 2014 #64

I'm sorry but I don't think you do know what it is Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #74

Of course I know what they say it is Tumbulu Jan 2014 #99

No. I can not MattBaggins Jan 2014 #178

+1...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #184

Oh you, internet poster has the nerve to insult vets Tumbulu Jan 2014 #188

One of dearest principles as a liberal MattBaggins Jan 2014 #192

Well oh knowledgeable sage of the Tumbulu Jan 2014 #195

You just listed a bunch of medical procedures MattBaggins Jan 2014 #196

My vet uses acupuncture when it will help Tumbulu Jan 2014 #197

You should look for a new vet MattBaggins Jan 2014 #202

You should not advise me about vets Tumbulu Jan 2014 #214

Really? MattBaggins Jan 2014 #215

Lol. My husband's a nationally recognized competitor in dressage and combined training riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #220

Accupuncture is pure and utter bunk MattBaggins Jan 2014 #222

Lol. Like I give a shit what you think. Results or not riderinthestorm Jan 2014 #225

FYI, the veterinary textbooks and writings have been *INVALUABLE* IdaBriggs Jan 2014 #206

We se a doggie psychiatrist and it works for us! zappaman Jan 2014 #210

homeopathy works by providing information to the immune system Voice for Peace Jan 2014 #93

... SidDithers Jan 2014 #95

you underestimate life itself. Voice for Peace Jan 2014 #101

And you don't understand dilution...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #103

I do. We simply have a different perspective. Voice for Peace Jan 2014 #106

Tell me you're joking. /nt Marr Jan 2014 #140

What a massive load of BS MattBaggins Jan 2014 #179

It's pretty good for curing mild dehydration. Marr Jan 2014 #139

...and wikipedia is your source? Sancho Jan 2014 #180

From your link: "treating the individual with highly diluted substances" Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #183

check some of the references�. Sancho Jan 2014 #186

"Some" Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #187

In the late 1800's, "some" MD's at Dartmouth Medical school thought that smoking caused cancer!! Sancho Jan 2014 #190

It is not 'difficult' to detect... It's water Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #191

The effects of processing with water are hard to detect... Sancho Jan 2014 #193

It is not hard to detect... It is a "memory"... More commonly known as only water Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #194

...you aren't getting the point... Sancho Jan 2014 #198

Complete non-sense Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #201

Clearly you don't get the point then... Sancho Jan 2014 #204

Yes... And science is simply refusing to acknowledge this miracle Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #205

no...science has detected but not explained the "miracle"...you should read some chemistry articles. Sancho Jan 2014 #208

Yeah... Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #209

Ok...you simply don't get the logic... Sancho Jan 2014 #212

All that pesky science stuff still in your way? Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #213

Wow, you really don't get it... Sancho Jan 2014 #216

"even if there's not a clear "scientific" reason" Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #218

If you have questions about the content of any of these... Sancho Jan 2014 #221

Right... Not going to post it Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #223

Because I think the science group isn't interested in continuing to debate with you... Sancho Jan 2014 #224

You think the Science Group would believe this non-sense? Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #226

A thread that says "Ohio Joe is wrong" is not a topic for the science group... Sancho Jan 2014 #227

How about a thread that says "The science behind Homeopathy"? Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #228

I'm not defending the practice of homeopathy - you're the one who introduced it!!! Sancho Jan 2014 #229

uh huh... Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #230

You can post references but...I'm waiting for your apology.... Sancho Jan 2014 #232

There's piles of stuff to keep you up for a few nights, it's not "just water"!! Sancho Jan 2014 #217

i think you may be confusing holistic with homeopathic...fyi. dionysus Jan 2014 #160

No I most definitely am not! nt Tumbulu Jan 2014 #166

ok, so you really believe water with miniscule traces of whatever work? dionysus Jan 2014 #167

I have posted repeatedly Tumbulu Jan 2014 #170

Homeopathy cured my thirst... SidDithers Jan 2014 #86

James Randi used to drink / eat homeopathic remedies as a stunt. joshcryer Jan 2014 #127

No homeopathy discussion is complete without Mitchell and Webb... SidDithers Jan 2014 #158

Indeed, homeopathy is insane. joshcryer Jan 2014 #126

Homeopathy works for me in preventing poison ivy. indie9197 Jan 2014 #73

No. It did not. Homeopathy is water and nothing more Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #75

It is near impossible Saviolo Jan 2014 #81

I subscribe to the Daily Atheism twitter feed... Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #145

Ooh Saviolo Jan 2014 #146

It's here Ohio Joe Jan 2014 #147

Woo = Snake Oil ElboRuum Jan 2014 #6

Really ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #14

Legality has nothing to do with scientific validity eallen Jan 2014 #15

Not My Point... My Point Was That Is You Go Back In Time... WillyT Jan 2014 #21

Again, acceptance is not the measure of woo. jeff47 Jan 2014 #25

So What You're Saying... Is That If A Hypothesis Is Tested And Found Wanting... It Becomes Woo... WillyT Jan 2014 #28

No. It becomes woo when it's tested, found false, and it's still being pushed as true. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #30

Well, Now You're Talking Politics... Climate Change Anyone ??? WillyT Jan 2014 #33

Except those aren't woo. jeff47 Jan 2014 #35

BUT... They Didn't START That Way... Case In Point: WillyT Jan 2014 #45

Again, lack of acceptance is not woo. jeff47 Jan 2014 #50

Sorry WillyT, I don't get the point of the quote. defacto7 Jan 2014 #76

And There Ya Have It Folks !!! - Einstein Was Pro Woo... WillyT Jan 2014 #79

No, WillyT defacto7 Jan 2014 #142

Woo woo credo #36... SidDithers Jan 2014 #88

while the extent to which woo believers are doubling down surpises me a little... dionysus Jan 2014 #156

I'm amazed at the extent to which is has patrons here... SidDithers Jan 2014 #157

you're just closed minded Sid. after a few weeks with those crystals, you'll be singing a different dionysus Jan 2014 #159

"Woo is fraud." Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #66

No. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #77

Therefore... If It Were Not For Edward Snowden... All Talk About What The NSA Is/Is Not Doing... WillyT Jan 2014 #83

Read more, whaaargarbllle less. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #90

So When Todd Aikin Suggests That Women's Body's Can Shut Down Pregnancy From Rape... WillyT Jan 2014 #94

That's not politics, that's a dumbass politician making a medical claim... SidDithers Jan 2014 #96

I'm Hear To Learn... You Know That Sid... Just Asking Questions... WillyT Jan 2014 #98

*here ElboRuum Jan 2014 #102

"Oh Death... Where Is Thy Sting ???" - Missed A Misspelling... WillyT Jan 2014 #107

This message was self-deleted by its author ElboRuum Jan 2014 #118

Yes, that, and a point... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #119

Thank You... I'm Very Amused... WillyT Jan 2014 #120

No. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #100

People here call anything "woo" that might fly in the face of the DC Villagers view of the world. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #114

Ah, if you're going to broad brush... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #116

Thanks for the fine example of what I was talking about. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #121

Hey, if you're going to attack... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #122

Where was there an "attack"? Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #124

Ok... here... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #128

No. I claim there are people who panic that will hurt "The Cause" if you deviate from dogma. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #130

What cause is that? ElboRuum Jan 2014 #141

It's obvious. Victory of the "D"s over the "R"s even if you have to become an "R" to get it. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #148

So what about this is woo? ElboRuum Jan 2014 #32

Thalidimide, DES = Tragic Scientific Woo. See the settlements to the victims of your 'infallible sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #19

It may have been tragic, but it was not 'woo'. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #38

It was actually LACK of proper scientific testing that caused these tragedies LeftishBrit Jan 2014 #174

Anti-woo crowd on DU Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #22

Good post! n/t KT2000 Jan 2014 #37

Ah, yes, because "anti-woo crowd" is "productive discussion" ElboRuum Jan 2014 #57

Not defensive, at all. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #110

Unfortunately, I can't agree with this... ElboRuum Jan 2014 #115

You are proving my point - Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #125

You claimed that the anti-woo predilection for pointing out this was a strawman. ElboRuum Jan 2014 #136

Yep. pretty much. nt laundry_queen Jan 2014 #108

What got us to the moon? It wasn't fairies and acupuncture. X_Digger Jan 2014 #9

Except For Hundreds And Thousands Of Years, Manned Flight Was A "Fancy"... WillyT Jan 2014 #54

No, those who claimed we would never fly, because "god didn't give man wings".. were spouting woo. X_Digger Jan 2014 #55

And That's Why I Asked The Question In The OP... WillyT Jan 2014 #60

And the same would apply to 2naSalit Jan 2014 #63

Thing is, the 'test and repeat' have been done for things like acupuncture.. X_Digger Jan 2014 #67

And I don't know where your 2naSalit Jan 2014 #69

You might want to re-read your own previous post. X_Digger Jan 2014 #72

Doesn't "woo" derive from an echoic replication of old sci-fi Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #131

Yes, you're misunderstanding Spider Jerusalem Jan 2014 #11

First they ignore you..... Th1onein Jan 2014 #12

"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at SidDithers Jan 2014 #91

This is why I hate the word "woo". It's over-applied. arcane1 Jan 2014 #13

The difference is easy Scootaloo Jan 2014 #16

Except that is not how it is being used on DU. Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #24

That is EXACTLY how it's being used. Scootaloo Jan 2014 #34

^^THIS^^ longship Jan 2014 #39

I'm not distinguishing it Ms. Toad Jan 2014 #40

You do understand you just linked to survey results Scootaloo Jan 2014 #135

So anything other than AMA KT2000 Jan 2014 #49

^^^ this. nt laundry_queen Jan 2014 #112

And you're illustrating my point Scootaloo Jan 2014 #133

ridiculous KT2000 Jan 2014 #134

absurd Scootaloo Jan 2014 #137

Talking about cures before a germ theory *was* woo, in fact Recursion Jan 2014 #17

Lead still cannot be converted into gold Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #47

Teach the controversy! Recursion Jan 2014 #53

Nice try Art_from_Ark Jan 2014 #113

Technically, transmutation is possible, it take a LOT of energy, and a particle... Humanist_Activist Jan 2014 #117

No, I mean Pb nuclei have been made to decay into Au Recursion Jan 2014 #123

You can turn Mercury (Hg-196 specifically) into gold. joshcryer Jan 2014 #129

And all those things submitted to rigorous testing, brought to you by... DRoseDARs Jan 2014 #20

no, the way those things happened was by not being woo. JVS Jan 2014 #26

Dammit, stop all this talk about the earth moving around the sun, Gallileo! It's all WOO! Squinch Jan 2014 #27

LOL !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #29

Very much so! Squinch Jan 2014 #150

It wasn't science that silenced Galileo,it was religion. sufrommich Jan 2014 #152

At the time, conventional science and religion were the same thing. And everyone who believed in Squinch Jan 2014 #153

Which is why Galileo is the poster boy sufrommich Jan 2014 #154

That is one way to look at it. Another is that he is the poster boy for what happens Squinch Jan 2014 #155

No. Deep13 Jan 2014 #31

I'm so over the woo-flinger group arikara Jan 2014 #36

It's not "woo" vs. "science", it's "Scientific Method" vs. "Unrestrained Capitalism/Profit Motive". yodermon Jan 2014 #41

No. gcomeau Jan 2014 #52

What about the flat earth? Thinkingabout Jan 2014 #56

This is a BIG TOPIC, but I'll give it a shot... cthulu2016 Jan 2014 #62

+1 JVS Jan 2014 #172

Manned flight, landing on the moon, chemistry, geology, etc apply science Gore1FL Jan 2014 #68

We had a one-post trollie troll in the "antibiotic" thread last month LadyHawkAZ Jan 2014 #70

Yes, you're misunderstanding woo...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #84

no. woo is not a hypothesis or an experiment La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #85

Bingo. Deep13 Jan 2014 #143

brilliantly said. nt La Lioness Priyanka Jan 2014 #144

Most of what has been considered bunk, remains bunk. We simply remember the rare successes most. Silent3 Jan 2014 #87

We didn't have the means to investigate some of those fields NuclearDem Jan 2014 #97

No way. Woo is woo, no too do. Coyotl Jan 2014 #109

I have a serious question for supporters of woo. Marr Jan 2014 #132

Why go back that far? Do you as a supporter of science advocate the 20th Century Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #164

Science moves on when something proves ineffective. Marr Jan 2014 #165

This is why Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World should sufrommich Jan 2014 #149

No, there was not such a time. gcomeau Jan 2014 #151

Dreaming of flying to the moon with ballistic rockets & space suits isn't woo. baldguy Jan 2014 #161

We'd already gone to the moon when 'Scientific Research' still claimed being gay was Bluenorthwest Jan 2014 #163

Hell, there are some that are still claiming homosexuality is a disease justiceischeap Jan 2014 #181

I may be wrong myself, but I don't think that futuristic speculation is what's generally called woo LeftishBrit Jan 2014 #173

I think it's all in what the definition of woo is to a specific person justiceischeap Jan 2014 #182

Yes, you are misunderstanding woo. NuclearDem Jan 2014 #189