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pampango

(24,692 posts)

94. Agreed. It a bit of a misnomer to call it a 'free trade' agreement, perhaps why those words are not

Mon Jan 13, 2014, 11:49 AM

Jan 2014

in its title. All the previous agreements prominently featured the term 'free trade agreement'.

This one is much more about how countries treat their unions, their environment and intellectual property; about currency manipulation and subsidies for state-owned enterprises; and how disputes are resolved between member countries. At least those are what the chapter titles would lead you to believe.

Obviously, we won't know how if which provisions, if any, are strong and enforceable. The irony is that if provisions are strong and enforceable, the 'national sovereignty' folks will howl about foreigners making decisions. OTOH, if provisions are just 'pretty words on paper' without enforcement, they will be rightly criticized for that.

What do you think of the non-trade parts of it?

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One cannot simultaneously want the TPP and economic justice for the 99% [View all] MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 OP

Well that is as obvious as the day is long. K/R NYC_SKP Jan 2014 #1

They are sociopaths. And who wants the TPP AND economic justice? I thought sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #2

No they are not! Why are you such a hater! Phlem Jan 2014 #9

Well I talk to people who claim to want both but I can't say I ever sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #28

Sabrina never really loved him!!!1 QC Jan 2014 #32

Absolutely right, my dear Manny... CaliforniaPeggy Jan 2014 #3

yes but one can PRETEND to want economic justice for the 99% until one gets the TPP passed! nt msongs Jan 2014 #4

But how does one fight? BrotherIvan Jan 2014 #5

That's one of the better questions. Sunlight is probablhy the cure, but you can't bring enough alone jtuck004 Jan 2014 #8

By not fighting. DeSwiss Jan 2014 #11

I get it. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #96

That's what the Internets are doing. DeSwiss Jan 2014 #112

Krugman said it was nothing really to tout if you're for it or grieve over if you're against it. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #6

Sneaky way to calm down the opposition whlie your friends pass it. jtuck004 Jan 2014 #7

Krugman is probably not the best advisor on trade. moondust Jan 2014 #33

Dr. Krugman is both brilliant and on the right side, socially. But keep in mind that he is Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #36

Krugman is a lily livered guy living inside the plush ivory truedelphi Jan 2014 #54

You return trolls are so easy to spot. Good Riddance. I'll catch you again next time. morningfog Jan 2014 #120

K&R DeSwiss Jan 2014 #10

Little harsh, don't you think? ScottyEss Jan 2014 #12

Ever heard of the Third Way? Scuba Jan 2014 #18

But a D is a D know matter how R. ScottyEss Jan 2014 #23

Not in the eyes of many of us who are loyal to ideals rather than party. Scuba Jan 2014 #24

Well, I know a certain someone who's ScottyEss Jan 2014 #79

Many of us are 840high Jan 2014 #104

Millionaires and billionaires vs The People ~ nt antiquie Jan 2014 #26

What does nt mean? I see it in many posts. ScottyEss Jan 2014 #80

nt = No Text in body of post. nt ZombieHorde Jan 2014 #153

nt = no text in the subject part of the response. The title is the full reply /nt think Jan 2014 #154

This ^^^^ Phlem Jan 2014 #73

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #20

"The System"? So what is the point of participating here at DU ScottyEss Jan 2014 #22

Silly question. Democracy is an illusion. L0oniX Jan 2014 #37

It's exactly the right question, because nobody here is talking ScottyEss Jan 2014 #41

Hmmm...what's that word I'm looking for...BULLSHIT. progressoid Jan 2014 #65

You haven't read the TOS of this site. ScottyEss Jan 2014 #78

OMG, you're right. I've been here for 9 years and have never read the TOS. progressoid Jan 2014 #83

Perhaps you should debate MADem regarding ScottyEss Jan 2014 #84

Well, I've been banned from BOG so... progressoid Jan 2014 #85

Take it as a badge of honor, the best posters on DU are banned from the BOG. Rex Jan 2014 #121

Yeah, it's not like I would visit it deliberately. progressoid Jan 2014 #125

Wow. Seriously??...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #86

Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2014 #89

... SidDithers Jan 2014 #90

"It's been my experience . . . " since when - January 2 when you joined the site? markpkessinger Jan 2014 #87

Never mind. Poster has been invited by the admins to leave. LanternWaste Jan 2014 #106

Hahahahaha... SidDithers Jan 2014 #105

Where else are you going to find .... socialist_n_TN Jan 2014 #53

Did you forget your sarcasm tags MattBaggins Jan 2014 #35

One can't be for higher/progressive taxes, stronger unions, an effective safety net, a strong middle pampango Jan 2014 #13

When is this NAFTA renegotiation going to take place and solarhydrocan Jan 2014 #14

Since Canada and Mexico are part of the TPP (which will supercede NAFTA), I would say the pampango Jan 2014 #16

Do you have links that indicate NAFTA will be repealed if the TPP passes? Fumesucker Jan 2014 #25

The Canada-US Free Trade Agreement (1988) was superseded by NAFTA. pampango Jan 2014 #47

Only a relatively small part of the TPP is about trade per se though Fumesucker Jan 2014 #92

Agreed. It a bit of a misnomer to call it a 'free trade' agreement, perhaps why those words are not pampango Jan 2014 #94

What provisions? What labor and environmental protections? TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #27

We know they are in there but don't yet know how strong and effective they are. pampango Jan 2014 #50

Labor and environmental groups were not invited to the negotiations. Kermitt Gribble Jan 2014 #34

And yet somehow one can be for Obama and ScottyEss Jan 2014 #45

Wow. Seriously??... SidDithers Jan 2014 #49

Care to elaborate on what about that post makes you say that? cui bono Jan 2014 #55

No...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #57

No you don't care to elaborate or no you are not for the TPP? n/t cui bono Jan 2014 #58

by not being a single issue voter? -nt Bradical79 Jan 2014 #133

Nor can one want the TPP and transparent, non-corrupt governance simultaneously. Faryn Balyncd Jan 2014 #15

Love the Mafia your with. L0oniX Jan 2014 #38

Wait what? DireStrike Jan 2014 #39

DU doesn't have a good "mocking" emoticon. L0oniX Jan 2014 #42

I see. DireStrike Jan 2014 #44

Kicked and recommended a whole bunch.....nt Enthusiast Jan 2014 #17

Kick Scuba Jan 2014 #19

There is a reason for the extreme haste and secrecy. jsr Jan 2014 #21

Yes there certainly is. truedelphi Jan 2014 #108

It's unconscionable. woo me with science Jan 2014 #117

The TPP is a Declaration of War on American workers. 99Forever Jan 2014 #29

Harsh words, but they need to be spoken Populist_Prole Jan 2014 #43

C'est vrai. K&R. marmar Jan 2014 #30

TPP = Rise of Corporate Plantations nt mother earth Jan 2014 #31

Lol, the hyperbole and hatred in this post is pretty classic. "sick, sick" "sociopaths" "violently geek tragedy Jan 2014 #40

What is false about those terms? n/t cui bono Jan 2014 #56

Besides the fact it's hate speech directed at geek tragedy Jan 2014 #68

Yes, besides that, which is your opinion. n/t cui bono Jan 2014 #69

. geek tragedy Jan 2014 #70

The dude abides! cui bono Jan 2014 #71

I hate phony trade deals because they have helped to ruin America... Armstead Jan 2014 #137

Nope, I generally agree! geek tragedy Jan 2014 #139

The complications are a smokescreen. Armstead Jan 2014 #142

not at all. The TPP is a tragedy. grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #151

But politicians (and some here on DU) can pretend they do. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2014 #46

Sloganeering will save the day!!...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #48

Nice slogan, Sid Fumesucker Jan 2014 #62

CTRL-V for Victory!! is a good one too... SidDithers Jan 2014 #63

Loo slips stink ships! Fumesucker Jan 2014 #64

Better Believe It! nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #72

I miss them very much. CreekDog Jan 2014 #76

You lucky (Creek)Dog, you... SidDithers Jan 2014 #77

Frightened that this will go through, I'm wonder what the hell to do about it then. Ed Suspicious Jan 2014 #51

I keep wishing some legal type would sue for these "Agreements" to be truedelphi Jan 2014 #59

I am serious, how will scrapping the TPP help us? Hoyt Jan 2014 #52

Visit the folowing links, and then you will know more about truedelphi Jan 2014 #60

All I saw was great fears about copyrights and such. Hoyt Jan 2014 #67

Read up on how NAFTA harmed Mexico. Extrapolate from there. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #97

Truthfully, I don't think there is any creditable proof NAFTA ITSELF caused problems. The world has Hoyt Jan 2014 #101

Yes and there used to be one or two people here who believed that truedelphi Jan 2014 #107

Actually, I have never believed anyone but Oswald did it. This TPP, however, sure has become a Hoyt Jan 2014 #110

I think you need to read up on it. Bradical79 Jan 2014 #128

You too can't produce a concrete example of how it will hurt. And, I doubt you have the credentials Hoyt Jan 2014 #129

Like I said Bradical79 Jan 2014 #130

Surely you can respond with a a phrase of a few words, if you know of negative consequences. Hoyt Jan 2014 #131

Actually I'm going to go back to some of the original documents Bradical79 Jan 2014 #132

Sounds fair, I will read them. Thanks Hoyt Jan 2014 #136

Your blind faith is touching Armstead Jan 2014 #140

We do know about them.. Some folks just don't understand them, so they are bad. Hoyt Jan 2014 #145

National sovergnty means the government is allowed to govern Armstead Jan 2014 #146

Why should we impose our environmental laws on others. Heck, most are better than ours. Hoyt Jan 2014 #148

Free Trade is about gutting better laws -- not improving bad ones. Armstead Jan 2014 #149

NAFTA's Impact On Mexico ronnie624 Jan 2014 #113

Yuck. Now I know why you only post about guns usually. Union Scribe Jan 2014 #156

Just looking at a few of the responses. A very few this time ........ marmar Jan 2014 #61

+1 Phlem Jan 2014 #74

Manny.... It's all in the definitions. Everyone knows that the 0.01% knows best rhett o rick Jan 2014 #66

Why not? What's in the TPP? jazzimov Jan 2014 #75

Details: MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #82

We'll have to pass it to see what's in it Fumesucker Jan 2014 #93

You won't know until after it has passed. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #98

You'll wait until it's "old news", and then dismiss it as such, you mean. /nt Marr Jan 2014 #102

Wood pulp mostly..... whistler162 Jan 2014 #135

K&R Every investor in Wall St is paying for it. No one works harder for it than them. nt raouldukelives Jan 2014 #81

+ 1. n/t truedelphi Jan 2014 #111

They are the only ones with representation anymore. woo me with science Jan 2014 #119

I second your wake-up call BelgianMadCow Jan 2014 #88

But one can fight for the TPP and talk about economic justice for the 99%. polichick Jan 2014 #91

I wonder where our resident TPP cheerleaders are. X_Digger Jan 2014 #95

A few are here. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #99

This is an important post. woo me with science Jan 2014 #100

True. BelgianMadCow Jan 2014 #115

k/r 840high Jan 2014 #103

"TPP is being pushed by The Only HopeTM for economic justice: ergo, it'll serve the 99%" MisterP Jan 2014 #109

No, they cannot Manny. sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #114

Worth kicking again. woo me with science Jan 2014 #116

The title of the OP is self-evidently a falsehood. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2014 #118

oh, pooh-pooh! The TPP will bring prosperity, opportunity, and bouquets of fresh elderberries Zorra Jan 2014 #122

kick woo me with science Jan 2014 #123

"They are violently mutually exclusive." woo me with science Jan 2014 #124

Where We Are Today - How We Got Here - Who Sold Us Out cantbeserious Jan 2014 #126

Truth. K&R nt TBF Jan 2014 #127

Okay? Why can't we have Toliet Paper Products, whistler162 Jan 2014 #134

reccing hard frwrfpos Jan 2014 #138

Sociopathic Capitalism Armstead Jan 2014 #141

Good term for it - and yes, everyone knows what these deals mean now. polichick Jan 2014 #144

now it's "we'll fix it later" (the important thing is to buy time) MisterP Jan 2014 #147

Also, refer to them as COSTLY trade agreements - the opposite of free. grahamhgreen Jan 2014 #152

Correction and a thread Im going to make Bradical79 Jan 2014 #143

That'd be great. nt MannyGoldstein Jan 2014 #155

R&K me b zola Jan 2014 #150