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Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,477 posts)
28. They also believe that a lawsuit is a swift and sure cure for injuries
Mon Jan 13, 2014, 03:04 PM
Jan 2014

Whereas no one who has ever dealt with the court system knows this is true.

I have maintained for years that libertarians can only maintain their ideology through ignorance of history, economics, politics and the real world. Real world problems needing practical solutions. In the US, that was the reason for such things as the EPA, the FDA, the SEC, Social Security and so on -- all set up to deal with real problems. Are they perfect? Of course not, this is the real world, after all.

Libertarianism is superficially appealing, but it does not stand up to even the slightest scrutiny. Here are some quotations from the platform of the New Jersey Libertarian Party:

Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must learn to rely on supportive family, religious institution, community, or private charity to bridge the gap.


Whoever wrote this does not know why government got into social welfare. It was because in too many cases, "family, religious institution, community, or private charity" was unable to do what was necessary.

We support repeal of minimum wage laws, mandatory state unemployment insurance and disability insurance, so-called “protective labor” legislation for women and children, and governmental restrictions on the operation of private day-care centers. We should eliminate the government’s role in the social-welfare system, including AFDC, DYFS, Food Stamps, and subsidized housing.


In other words, go back to the bad old days of the 12-hour work day, child labor, and Dotheboys Hall. The person who wrote this obviously does not give a damn about others, nor does he know why the laws he rails against were passed. For example, when then-President Theodore Roosevelt read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, he sent a couple of men to Chicago to see if Sinclair was exaggerating about conditions in the meat packing industry. They reported that, if anything, Sinclair understated things. The Pure Food and Drug Act followed shortly afterwards.

Rather than making taxpayers pay for toxic waste cleanups, the polluters should be held liable for material damage done by them. This includes, but is not limited to, any adverse health consequences as well as cleanup and remediation.


Sounds good in theory, but let me give a specific example. In the 1920s, on the boundary between Geneva and St Charles, Illinois, there was a factory which produced watches with radium dials. The company went out of business in the 1930s, and the factory was demolished. About 25 years ago, it was discovered that the soil around the old factory was polluted with radioactive compounds, which were leeching into the groundwater. Now, who is to clean up this pollution? The company which caused it no longer exists. The people who currently live near there simply can't afford it.

We oppose government control of resource use through eminent domain, zoning laws, building codes, rent control, regional planning, urban renewal, or purchase of development rights with tax money. Such regulations and programs violate property rights, discriminate against minorities, create housing shortages, and tend to cause higher rents.


So if I decide to put a hog farm on my suburban property -- currently forbidden by zoning laws -- there is no way to stop me. Once more, the person who wrote this is unable to think through what his idiotic declaration actually means.

We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the New Jersey Department of Transportation, and the transfer of their legitimate functions to competitive private firms.


So the street passing in front of my house should become a toll road?

We call for an end to all forms of government intrusion into family life.


So if I beat my wife and children, the government cannot stop me. The next paragraph says "We call for the repeal of the Prevention of Domestic Violence Act of 1991"

We call for the abolition of the juvenile court system. Juveniles should be held fully responsible for their crimes but they should not be prosecuted for offenses that are only offenses by virtue of their youth.


So ten-year-olds should be treated as adults. Bring back the days of hanging children as pickpockets.

We advocate the complete separation of education and the state, and believe that government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools should be ended.


A great example of libertarian ignorance of history. Public schools were started so that everyone could get an education. Apparently, the libertarian who wrote this thinks that having an educated populace is A Bad Thing.

We oppose government attempts to regulate private discrimination, including discrimination in employment, housing, and privately-owned so-called public accommodation. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever.


So if a privately owned hospital wants to deny you treatment because you're gay, that's fine with them. "No dogs or Jews allowed." "No n*ggers will be served." Libertarians claim they believe racism is bad, but also believe that having the government do something about it is worse. In other words, they actually support racism.

Libertarians claim that the sort of discrimination would disappear when the people practicing the discrimination understood that it was not profitable, it would disappear. The appropriate term for this is "wishful thinking".

We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.


Before passage of the Clean Water Act and creation of the Environmental Protection Agency, the Cuyahoga River in Ohio used to catch on fire because of pollution. It wasn't corporations or the free market that cleaned up the Cuyahoga, it was the government. So their pretense that government "has a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection" is a lie. Libertarians saying that corporations would act to clean up their own pollution is simply more evidence that libertarians prefer fantasy over reality.

Here is one of my favorite bits:

The individual's right to privacy, property, and right to speak or not to speak should not be infringed by the government. The government should not use electronic or other means of covert surveillance of an individual's actions or private property without the consent of the owner or occupant. Correspondence, bank and other financial transactions and records, doctors' and lawyers' communications, employment records, and the like should not be open to review by government without the consent of all parties involved in those actions.


If they really mean what this seems to say, then seeking documentary evidence of criminal acts would be impossible, since a suspect would have absolute veto power over any searches. Libertarians claim to oppose fraud, but the person who wrote that -- and the members of the party who passed that platform -- clearly do not mean it when they say it.

The late Iain Banks defined libertarianism as "A simple-minded right-wing ideology ideally suited to those unable or unwilling to see past their own sociopathic self-regard."

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

recommend phantom power Jan 2014 #1
Thanks. riqster Jan 2014 #2
what interests me (in a sad way) is that in spite of all these sort of examples... phantom power Jan 2014 #3
The libertarians have taken control of the marketplace of ideas over the past decades riqster Jan 2014 #5
And they control all the media... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #30
Liberals have been pandering to Libertarians for votes. jeff47 Jan 2014 #6
S'truth. riqster Jan 2014 #7
Well, that is not really the Liberals. bvar22 Jan 2014 #45
Relative liberal. They're liberal compared to the Republicans. (nt) jeff47 Jan 2014 #46
that's funny I have also seen those on the very far left agree with the Libertarians too! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #53
Agree with economic libertarians on what exactly? TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #70
Libertarians...I didn't couch it in "economics" VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #75
We are discussing economics otherwise we enter silly season TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #97
but "I" didn't say that did I? VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #100
No, it seemed to be implied otherwise I have trouble seeing what point was being made TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #102
they most certainly HAVE... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2014 #103
You mean they disagreed with Dick Cheney and the people like him. JoeyT Jan 2014 #83
K&R n/t Feral Child Jan 2014 #4
The delusional Libertarian inmates are really running the asylum meow2u3 Jan 2014 #8
Rubber room and a straitjacket. riqster Jan 2014 #9
Libertarianism is just another crazy cult. hunter Jan 2014 #10
The Libertarians I know are all in favor of throwing the management of the West Fertilizer Company AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #11
but that's facile of them, because corporations specifically protect individuals against that. phantom power Jan 2014 #20
True, there are numerous flaws in their position, quite beyond simple 'how much money CAN you pay AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #22
AFTER the fact, sure Scootaloo Jan 2014 #49
I don't advocate violence, but it is fun to see them scramble when you AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #50
Sure they do. They flap their arms and squawk that you're a "statist" Scootaloo Jan 2014 #51
I have, indeed, witnessed this behavior. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #52
The courtship dance of the Friedman's Least Boobie Scootaloo Jan 2014 #55
You said two words the can't argue with safeinOhio Jan 2014 #12
What's funny is when you pin down a Libertarian they say a LAWSUIT keeps companies in line... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #13
Nailed it. ctsnowman Jan 2014 #14
Your relatives are supposed to get rich.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #16
No wonder. Because they've legislated individual rights vs. corporations to 'frivolous' complaints freshwest Jan 2014 #38
They also believe that a lawsuit is a swift and sure cure for injuries Fortinbras Armstrong Jan 2014 #28
This.... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #37
Very said! PLEASE make a separate OP of this for moe exposure! n/t freshwest Jan 2014 #39
This should SO be an OP. Just sayin'. riqster Jan 2014 #41
Judges can be objective treestar Jan 2014 #56
They talk about the rules of the market as if they're laws. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #59
Where? treestar Jan 2014 #65
That's another thing, who is going to ENFORCE those contracts? Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #66
In the libertarians' minds treestar Jan 2014 #67
They want a world driven by greed..... Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #98
Her 19th century was Czarist Russia. Not a great time for liberty. riqster Jan 2014 #72
She wanted the Horatio Alger era treestar Jan 2014 #84
They call it the non-aggression principle. joshcryer Jan 2014 #87
Followed by the classic, "Whatever they're paying you, I'll double it." Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #99
indeed joshcryer Jan 2014 #104
What do you mean "fiction"??!!! bvar22 Jan 2014 #15
P T Barnum was right. riqster Jan 2014 #17
He'll cash in on the suckers sending him money in small amounts. Spitfire of ATJ Jan 2014 #18
Oh my GODDESS! redqueen Jan 2014 #19
I just can't WAIT to go down there and start... bvar22 Jan 2014 #27
You can add in the 4/23/2005 BP Texas City refinery blast that killed 15 b/c BP budgeted the price Dustlawyer Jan 2014 #21
All good examples. And it's world wide. riqster Jan 2014 #23
You bet your ass! People have no idea what that kind of money, coupled with amoral business Dustlawyer Jan 2014 #31
Well, I'm thinking the libertarians think that there EC Jan 2014 #24
That would be some wack reasoning, riqster Jan 2014 #25
I had a libertarian aquiantance say there should be a law. EC Jan 2014 #26
Their 'don't tax me bro' eliminated regulatory oversight, to destroy civil society and devolve to: freshwest Jan 2014 #44
It's not just a closed circle, it's unsustainable. riqster Jan 2014 #47
Ah, but their core group survives. That's the fact we ignore at our peril. It works for plutocrats. freshwest Jan 2014 #48
Survives, but at a huge loss. Nt riqster Jan 2014 #54
Isn't that how the 1% wants it, though? Not arguing it is wrong... but we must see what it is. BTW, freshwest Jan 2014 #62
Thanks :-) riqster Jan 2014 #69
The members of Rush are libertarians? awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #29
Oh yeah. Ayn Rand nuts, the lot of them. riqster Jan 2014 #32
Did not know that... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #34
Not exactly stratnav71 Jan 2014 #79
Fascinating. riqster Jan 2014 #80
DU is more libertarian than either Texas or West Virginia Fumesucker Jan 2014 #33
You are expecting people to distinguish between left-libertarianism the political orientation, Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #61
Hey, you understand what I'm saying, that's a start Fumesucker Jan 2014 #63
I'm Group W Bench Warren DeMontague Jan 2014 #64
Move over. There are pencils on the bench to played with. riqster Jan 2014 #73
I would think a true libertarian would occupy the lower right quadrant, nyquil_man Jan 2014 #105
Make this go viral. Most conservative and some other groups believe this fiction. n/t freshwest Jan 2014 #35
And let's not forget... WinstonSmith4740 Jan 2014 #36
All true. riqster Jan 2014 #40
Which regulation proposals were defeated by the Libertarians? One_Life_To_Give Jan 2014 #42
Bulls$1t! "libertarian" and "think" are mutually exclusive! dorkzilla Jan 2014 #43
I agree. Libertarianism is utter bullshit. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #57
Rand never said a good thing about Libertarians in her whole life MNBrewer Jan 2014 #58
Thom Hartmann just pointed out that this was a perfect Cleita Jan 2014 #60
I read the subject line quickly and thought it said, "Librarians think fiction is reality." valerief Jan 2014 #68
I once dated a librarian. riqster Jan 2014 #74
Cue the "But you just don't *understand* REAL Libertarianism!" crowd in 3...2.... n/t TygrBright Jan 2014 #71
When I say things like this, my libertarian friends tell me proReality Jan 2014 #76
Send them to the blog. Then watch them turn purple. riqster Jan 2014 #82
Worse, the economic Libertarians seem pretty convinced that reality is fictitious as well. TheKentuckian Jan 2014 #77
You didn't even mention bringing back the gold standard. SansACause Jan 2014 #78
Damn, there are so many libertarian fables. riqster Jan 2014 #81
Libertarian owned businesses are largely a disaster waiting to happen. JoeyT Jan 2014 #85
K&R cranky! Cha Jan 2014 #86
RUSH (the rock band) is NOT Libertarian! nikto Jan 2014 #88
Thanks, you are the second person to point that out. riqster Jan 2014 #89
Government was not imposed on us quaker bill Jan 2014 #90
Their founding document gwheezie Jan 2014 #91
That's about right. riqster Jan 2014 #92
pure logic gold heaven05 Jan 2014 #93
Thanks for the kind words. riqster Jan 2014 #94
I have a libertarian FB friend crystal dawn Jan 2014 #95
My thoughts are with you. riqster Jan 2014 #96
Libertarianism is the dogma of unrealistically selfish assholes. nt MrScorpio Jan 2014 #101
True Fact: Libertarianism works only if practiced by ethical, progressive community activists. byronius Jan 2014 #106
Libertarianism: the philosophy of anti-government cynicism and "the world revolves around me". eom Jamaal510 Jan 2014 #107
DYFS CRIMINALS Lilliy7 Mar 2015 #108
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